Pure Direct vs Stereo

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Same experience. I have an Anthem preamp so the analog section is supposed to be good, but I can't tell any difference (at least immediately) between tone bypass and with the tone controls enabled.

I think you might have misunderstood my post. I think almost all of us can tell the difference between Tones (RC, EQ, DSP) fully on vs Tones bypassed.

What most of us cannot differentiate is between Stereo Tone Bypass vs Direct modes.

 

[KEW]

Why not? Because that would cost more money? Remember Denon made the AVP-A1 fully balanced dual differential from input to output, which increased cost substantially. So what is the cost of adding a dedicated analog crossover compared to that?

Like they say, sometimes you get what you pay. Sometimes you don't. But sometimes you do.

But even when we get what we paid, the question is, can we tell the difference ?

To explain why I thought it doubtful: Because it costs more money and isn't a big selling point that I am aware of.
Fully Balanced, on the other hand, is pretty well coveted in audio circles.
Kudo's to Denon for doing this. I would pay for the ability to have sub output in D/PD!
I had not noticed that in any of the receiver feature lists I have looked at (not that I pretend to keep up with it all).

 

[internetmin]

I think you might have misunderstood my post. I think almost all of us can tell the difference between Tones (RC, EQ, DSP) fully on vs Tones bypassed.

What most of us cannot differentiate is between Stereo Tone Bypass vs Direct modes.

Ah, I did. So I fall right in line with everyone else ;-)

 

[RichB]

To explain why I thought it doubtful: Because it costs more money and isn't a big selling point that I am aware of.
Fully Balanced, on the other hand, is pretty well coveted in audio circles.
Kudo's to Denon for doing this. I would pay for the ability to have sub output in D/PD!
I had not noticed that in any of the receiver feature lists I have looked at (not that I pretend to keep up with it all).

The Marantz AV8801 does this for most inputs. Only the 7.1 analog inputs are not processed.
I don't remember the LFE+Main setting working in PD/D modes so maybe that is new.
Certainly, there are folks on AVS that don't believe me.
I have offered to wager, maybe I can make some money on this

If Oppo were to provide a Double Bass option, that might entice more to try the analog outs.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To explain why I thought it doubtful: Because it costs more money and isn't a big selling point that I am aware of.
Fully Balanced, on the other hand, is pretty well coveted in audio circles.
Kudo's to Denon for doing this. I would pay for the ability to have sub output in D/PD!
I had not noticed that in any of the receiver feature lists I have looked at (not that I pretend to keep up with it all).

PD 2.1 is something Denon/Marantz have that no one else seems to have. Same with the fully balanced dual differential circuit of the AVP-A1 (outside of ultra high-end world).

But I agree that these points are probably not a huge selling point for most people.

Anyway, I set my Speakers to Large in the AVR-5308, instead of small and compared PD 2.2 vs Stereo 2.2 (Tones Bypass).

And I hate to admit it (damn you!), but I think you were right.

There seems to be very little difference between PD 2.1 vs Stereo 2.1 Tone Bypass as far as I CAN TELL (it's still possible there may be some benefits in Pure Direct ).

So the real BIG difference was the speakers set to LARGE vs SMALL.

In any case, I am still extremely happy that I can have full subwoofer glory in PURE DIRECT mode.

I am listening to PD2.2 right now as I type on my iPad.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Marantz AV8801 does this for most inputs. Only the 7.1 analog inputs are not processed.
I don't remember the LFE+Main setting working in PD/D modes so maybe that is new.
Certainly, there are folks on AVS that don't believe me.
I have offered to wager, maybe I can make some money on this

I could have sworn PD2.1 was not possible a year ago! I set it up LFE+Main and I never got full subwoofer glory like I do now. It has to be some kind of a firmware update.

 

[RichB]

^^^^

Does the AVP-A1 support PD 2.2 using the 7.1 analog inputs?

I hear a difference between PD, D, and Stereo on the AV8801.
But I would not be surprised if the AVP-A1 does a better job with additional processing.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

^^^^

Does the AVP-A1 support PD 2.2 using the 7.1 analog inputs?

I hear a difference between PD, D, and Stereo on the AV8801.
But I would not be surprised if the AVP-A1 does a better job with additional processing.

- Rich

I'm not using any analog inputs, so I don't know.

Why are you using analog 7.1 anyway? Too many wires.

My inputs are pure 100% digital HDMI.

 

[KEW]

Anyway, I set my Speakers to Large in the AVR-5308, instead of small and compared PD 2.2 vs Stereo 2.2 (Tones Bypass).

And I hate to admit it (damn you!), but I think you were right.

Thanks for checking! This thread has forced me to plunk down $1070 on a refurb AVR-4311CI from A4L (Damn You right back!!!). You are a bad influence!

I had been looking at the Sub EQ HT feature along with the Audyssey XT32 for awhile as something I want to test myself.

The extra flexibility to play 2.2 in P/PD mode pushed me off of the fence.

 

[RichB]

I'm not using any analog inputs, so I don't know.

Why are you using analog 7.1 anyway? Too many wires.

My inputs are pure 100% digital HDMI.

Two reasons,

1) I beta test the BDP-105
2) they sound better (at least with my Preamp)

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks for checking! This thread has forced me to plunk down $1070 on a refurb AVR-4311CI from A4L (Damn You right back!!!). You are a bad influence!

I had been looking at the Sub EQ HT feature along with the Audyssey XT32 for awhile as something I want to test myself.

The extra flexibility to play 2.2 in P/PD mode pushed me off of the fence.

Man, this is really weird! Okay so when I compared the AVR-5308+Orion Large LFE+Main Stereo vs PD, I couldn't really hear much of a difference.

But just now I compared using AVP-A1HD+Salon2 Large Stereo vs PD, and the difference is clearly obvious and distinct ! PD actually has punchier more articulant bass than Stereo! Weird! So I definitely prefer PD in the AVP-A1!

I'll confirm tomorrow. Gotta go to bed now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, processors can be very different in how they process sound or at least the BASS region. And that's between 2 very similar processors - AVP-A1HD vs AVR-5308. I could unequivocally tell the difference even in a double-blinded test between LFE+Main Large Stereo Tone Bypass vs Pure Direct on the Denon AVP-A1HD. It was not about "smooth" or "relaxed" or "sweet", etc. The BASS was just punchier, more articulate, more detailed even in the strumming of the guitar.

I would imagine it could be different between Denon vs Onkyo vs Yamaha vs Pioneer, etc.

So I cannot rule out the differences among processors.

 

[cpp]

Man, this is really weird! Okay so when I compared the AVR-5308+Orion Large LFE+Main Stereo vs PD, I couldn't really hear much of a difference.

But just now I compared using AVP-A1HD+Salon2 Large Stereo vs PD, and the difference is clearly obvious and distinct ! PD actually has punchier more articulant bass than Stereo! Weird! So I definitely prefer PD in the AVP-A1!

I'll confirm tomorrow. Gotta go to bed now.

YES YES YESSSSS. That's how my 4311 works

 

[fmw]

Just guessing but I would think stereo is a method for combining signals to achieve two channel sound or 2.1 sound. Pure Direct I would think is nothing more than a bypass around signal processing. My own receiver goes into stereo whenever there is a stereo signal in the inputs and chooses one of the sorround modes (DTS for instance) whenever there is such a signal present. Direct is a push button switch.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

YES YES YESSSSS. That's how my 4311 works

So the bass on your 4311 in PD 2.1 LFE+Main is also more punchy, articulate, and detailed than Stereo 2.1 Tone Bypass Large LFE+Main ?

Hopefully I'm not the only one.

 

[cpp]

So the bass on your 4311 in PD 2.1 LFE+Main is also more punchy, articulate, and detailed than Stereo 2.1 Tone Bypass Large LFE+Main ?

Hopefully I'm not the only one.

PD 2.1 LFE+Main will work as long as there is a LFE signal or the LFE+main is engaged.

 

[RichB]

I prefer a preamp that is neutral and I believe the AV8801 in Pure Direct mode comes close.

Recently, I helped friend put together a system with the Oppo BDP-105 directly connected to two Outlaw M2200 200 WPC mono-blocks via the dedicated XLR outs. The BDP-105 uses a digital volume control in the DAC so (they claim) there is no loss from it.

The dedicated RCA jacks are connected to his Martin Logan Grotto I subwoofer.
The Grotto controls are used to adjust the bass levels.
His speakers are B&W CDM7SE's.</SPAN>
The Oppo has an HDMI input connected to his FIOS set-top-box.

It sounds fantastic and does everything he needs.
It replaced a Pioneer Elite SC-25 ICE amped receiver.

The first thing was the dynamics and volume are amazing.
He used to tune up the SC-25 and after about -12 there was not more much happening.
I think this is what is meant by soft clipping.
He loved this setup with no preamp at all.

I tried the BDP-105 hooked directly to the Sunfire 7400 and I thought it sounds great.
You have to be very careful with the Output volume of the Oppo which can be reset when resetting to defaults or just by toggling the volume from Fixed to Variable.

Someday, I will try this again with the ATI 3005, but only when well rested and properly caffeinated.

- Rich

 

[KEW]

If I run the 4311 in stereo 2.2, can I keep the speaker time delays calculated in Audyssey enabled and only by-pass the EQ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I run the 4311 in stereo 2.2, can I keep the speaker time delays calculated in Audyssey enabled and only by-pass the EQ?

It seems like all the parameters (speaker levels, size, XO, distance, sub parameters, etc) set by Audyssey are retained even when you turn Audyssey off and use Stereo 2.2.

After I ran Audyssey, I just turned it off and kept almost everything the way Audyssey set, except for the XO.

 

[3db]

Mine have 2ch, Straight and Pure Direct.

2ch - All processing in play. Even turns multi-channel into 2ch.
Straight - What comes in = what goes out + LFE & EQ (but these can be switched off) I use this more than any other setting. It's great for 5.1 or 2.1.
Pure Direct - 2 ch only. All processing is off. No EQ. No LFE. Even the lights go off. If I feed it multi-channel input, there is no output at all. (not sure if this can be changed with settings of some kind. Never tried. Edit: Maybe analog multi-ch input would function)

I checked just now and Pure Direct does allow music through the HDMI but with DSP and room correction turned off. I don't have a multichannel analog source to perform that test.