Pure Direct vs Stereo

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Based on the above, and assuming your Denon behaves as the referenced one, I have to wonder if the differences you hear are simply a matter of differences in the bass management.

In your original post, you say speakers are set to small in Stereo 2.2 mode.
Based on BatPig's statement, when you switch to D/PD, the speakers are being switched to large (whether you intended it or not).

The obvious thing to do is switch your speakers to large in Stereo 2.2 mode and see if you can still detect an audible difference.

Either way, the cool thing is that you have found better sound!

PS: I always knew your sound wasn't as perfect as you let on!
(Does it sound too much like petty envy to say that?)

I will have to try that experiment. Maybe you're right.

I think my AVP-A1HD (+ Salon) is not doing the same thing as my AVR-5308 (+ Orion) in Pure Direct mode even with the same exact setting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Say it ain't so , not you

Yep, it's me - forum clown/ trouble maker.

Maybe I just need to shut up and just quietly read the posts and not stir up controversy.

...................................... No I can't do that.

 

[cpp]

Yep, it's me - forum clown/ trouble maker.

Maybe I just need to shut up and just quietly read the posts and not stir up controversy.

...................................... No I can't do that.

oh really watch the little monitor, get really close

 

[3db]

Yammy Straight allows Room correction, EQ, DSP.

Denon Direct does NOT allow RC, EQ, DSP.

So how can Straight be the same as Denon's Direct?

Sending bass to the sub is not using Tone Circuit, RC, EQ, DSP in the Denon. It bypasses all Tones.

The difference between Denon Pure Direct vs Yamaha/ Onkyo is that Denon allows Bass output and Yamaha does not.

If one can turn on Bass management in Denon's Pure Direct, then DSP has been engaged. Based on what you are said above, Denon's Direct is equivalent to Yammy's Pure Direct and Denons's Pure Direct is equivalent to Yamaha's straight. Does that sound correct to you?

 

[KEW]

If one can turn on Bass management in Denon's Pure Direct, then DSP has been engaged. Based on what you are said above, Denon's Direct is equivalent to Yammy's Pure Direct and Denons's Pure Direct is equivalent to Yamaha's straight. Does that sound correct to you?

I believe that is correct. I doubt that Denon added an analog crossover (and if they did, I believe you would have to use a rheostat for XO frequency adjustment).

 

[RichB]

If one can turn on Bass management in Denon's Pure Direct, then DSP has been engaged. Based on what you are said above, Denon's Direct is equivalent to Yammy's Pure Direct and Denons's Pure Direct is equivalent to Yamaha's straight. Does that sound correct to you?

There are not the same.
Yamaha does not support double bass in Direct nor in Pure Direct mode.

Otherwise they map:

Yamaha Straight = Marantz Direct
Yamaha Pure Direct = Marantz Pure Direct

The same is true of my old Onkyo PR-SC5507: Pure Direct and Direct disabled bass management and double bass.

- Rich

 

[3db]

There are not the same.
Yamaha does not support double bass in Direct nor in Pure Direct mode.

Otherwise they map:

Yamaha Straight = Marantz Direct
Yamaha Pure Direct = Marantz Pure Direct

The same is true of my old Onkyo PR-SC5507: Pure Direct and Direct disabled bass management and double bass.

- Rich

Hi Rich,

Yamaha does not have a Direct. It has a straight mode which does support bass management but keeps the speical effects disengaged. You are correct that Yamaha's Pure Direct disengages bass management.

 

[3db]

I believe that is correct. I doubt that Denon added an analog crossover (and if they did, I believe you would have to use a rheostat for XO frequency adjustment).

LOL ..Loved the rheostat line. I also confident that Denon doesn't do any analog bass management. I wish manufacturers would standardize on terminology..like thats going to happen anytime soon.

I was wrong...Denon does employ a sperate analog filter as explained in Accudeftech's post #70.

 

[3db]

To clarify "strait" on a yamaha is simply what they call no DSP effects [not counting RC as an "effect"].

Also add that there is no down mixing in straight mode. 2 channel in = 2 channel out. Multichannel in = multi channel out. Straight also offers bass management which is DSP

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If one can turn on Bass management in Denon's Pure Direct, then DSP has been engaged. Based on what you are said above, Denon's Direct is equivalent to Yammy's Pure Direct and Denons's Pure Direct is equivalent to Yamaha's straight. Does that sound correct to you?

No, that is incorrect.

Denon's Direct and Pure Direct modes absolutely BYPASS all TONE CIRCUITS (DSP, EQ, RC). Denon states that perfectly clear. Absolutely no tone circuit, which is RC, EQ, DSP.

I finally talked to someone at Denon regarding Pure Direct & Direct 2.1.

Pure Direct 2.0/ Direct 2.0 is simply using the DAC to output 20Hz-20kHz signal.

The only extra step Denon has taken w/ PD2.1/D2.1 is using a discrete analog crossover circuit to output 20-80Hz signal.

This discrete analog crossover circuit is not DSP. It is in ANALOG form. It does not need to be converted back to digital (ADC).

So the answer is Denon uses one extra step with a discrete analog crossover circuit to simply output the bass signal to the subwoofer.

Apparently this extra step requires extra money, especially with the AVP-A1HDCI since it has to also be a fully balanced dual differential discrete circuit.

Onkyo, Yamaha, and most people don't want to implement this extra dedicated circuit probably due to cost.

I knew there was a reason Denon costs more.

 

[3db]

No, that is incorrect.

Denon's Direct and Pure Direct modes absolutely BYPASS all TONE CIRCUITS (DSP, EQ, RC). Denon states that perfectly clear. Absolutely no tone circuit, which is RC, EQ, DSP.

I finally talked to someone at Denon regarding Pure Direct & Direct 2.1.

Pure Direct 2.0/ Direct 2.0 is simply using the DAC to output 20Hz-20kHz signal.

The only extra step Denon has taken w/ PD2.1/D2.1 is using a discrete analog crossover circuit to output 20-80Hz signal.

This discrete analog crossover circuit is not DSP. It is in ANALOG form. It does not need to be converted back to digital (ADC).

So the answer is Denon uses one extra step with a discrete analog crossover circuit to simply output the bass signal to the subwoofer.

Apparently this extra step requires extra money. Onkyo, Yamaha, and most people don't want to implement this extra dedicated circuit.

Wow, very interesting. Thank you for digging into this. Yamaha does NOT have this feauture as you say. I hate to ask this.... so what's the difference between Denon's Direct and Pure Direct?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I doubt that Denon added an analog crossover...

Why not? Because that would cost more money? Remember Denon made the AVP-A1 fully balanced dual differential from input to output, which increased cost substantially. So what is the cost of adding a dedicated analog crossover compared to that?

Like they say, sometimes you get what you pay. Sometimes you don't. But sometimes you do.

But even when we get what we paid, the question is, can we tell the difference ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow, very interesting. Thank you for digging into this. Yamaha does NOT have this feauture as you say. I hate to ask this.... so what's the difference between Denon's Direct and Pure Direct?

Pure Direct bypasses the video circuit.

But I can't tell the difference here. Perhaps some folks may be able to tell the difference between PD vs D, but I can't. So I will not rule it out just because I can't tell the difference.

However, I do use Pure Direct, now and forever.

 

[RichB]

No, that is incorrect.

Denon's Direct and Pure Direct modes absolutely BYPASS all TONE CIRCUITS (DSP, EQ, RC). Denon states that perfectly clear. Absolutely no tone circuit, which is RC, EQ, DSP.

I finally talked to someone at Denon regarding Pure Direct & Direct 2.1.

Pure Direct 2.0/ Direct 2.0 is simply using the DAC to output 20Hz-20kHz signal.

The only extra step Denon has taken w/ PD2.1/D2.1 is using a discrete analog crossover circuit to output 20-80Hz signal.

This discrete analog crossover circuit is not DSP. It is in ANALOG form. It does not need to be converted back to digital (ADC).

So the answer is Denon uses one extra step with a discrete analog crossover circuit to simply output the bass signal to the subwoofer.

Apparently this extra step requires extra money, especially with the AVP-A1HDCI since it has to also be a fully balanced differential discrete circuit.

Onkyo, Yamaha, and most people don't want to implement this extra dedicated circuit probably due to cost.

I knew there was a reason Denon costs more.

Since the Marantz also outputs bass in LFE+Main mode, I assume it has the something similar.

On the Marantz AV8801:

Pure Direct and Direct disable Bass management:

• Speakers are set to large and bass management (steering) is disabled.
• Double bass (LFE+Main) is supported on all inputs except the 7.1 analog ins.

It may be the same analog bass management.
If so, it is too bad it is not available for the 7.1 analog inputs.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Pure Direct bypasses the video circuit.

But I can't tell the difference here. Perhaps some folks may be able to tell the difference between PD vs D, but I can't. So I will not rule it out just because I can't tell the difference.

However, I do use Pure Direct, now and forever.

On the Marantz all they say is it turns off the Analog Video circuits (analog video and component outs).
I am not sure if that is all it does. It sounds very different on the AV8801.
If it is only the analog video, then that speaks to an inferior design somewhere.
Personally, I think there is more to it.

Also, the LFE crossover is used for Main+LFE.

- Rich

 

[3db]

Pure Direct bypasses the video circuit.

But I can't tell the difference here. Perhaps some folks may be able to tell the difference between PD vs D, but I can't. So I will not rule it out just because I can't tell the difference.

However, I do use Pure Direct, now and forever.

I hope we can remember all of this for future just in case the discussions come up again.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hope we can remember all of this for future just in case the discussions come up again.

We probably won't remember 2 years from now when some noob asks.

We'll just know PD/D 2.1 is possible, but we won't remember how.

 

[3db]

We probably won't remember 2 years from now when some noob asks.

We'll just know PD/D 2.1 is possible, but we won't remember how.

Yeah, More than likely.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, More than likely.

Come to think of it, didn't we already talk about this subject 3 years ago?

But I think I "concluded" at that time that PD/D did not output any bass because I couldn't get my subwoofers to play. Yes. I remember now. I even set LFE+Main, but my subs barely moved in PD/D. So I've been using Stereo 2.2 (bypassing TONES) for a long time.

......Until now. So I don't know if some firmware updates along the way changed this?

Who knows?

It's all good. Whatever sounds the best to us is good. Stereo, Straight, PD, Direct, etc.

 

[internetmin]

Pure Direct bypasses the video circuit.

But I can't tell the difference here. Perhaps some folks may be able to tell the difference between PD vs D, but I can't. So I will not rule it out just because I can't tell the difference.

However, I do use Pure Direct, now and forever.

Same experience. I have an Anthem preamp so the analog section is supposed to be good, but I can't tell any difference (at least immediately) between tone bypass and with the tone controls enabled.