Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wrong.
I bought it because you told me to

- Rich

Oh, I get it. Pure peer pressure from fellow Salon alumni.

Irvrobinson has some ATI, I have 4 ATI, some other Salon owners also own ATI.......

 

[RichB]

Oh, I get it. Pure peer pressure from fellow Salon alumni.

Irvrobinson has some ATI, I have 4 ATI, some other Salon owners also own ATI.......

It is great to have the insight from you guys who drive the Salon 2's, not my old dusty Salons.
Of course, you need at least 10 years to properly burn them in
Seriously, you guys have helped me feel good about this choice.

Still, I would pay for for an faceplate that was black anodized aluminum without all the descriptive information. The front power button is unnecessary.

I know the styling is part of ATI's personality but it would not cost much for a better switch and less writing and blue LEDs. The outlaw versions are prettier

Here is a fluffy review of the Levinson version:

Mark Levinson No 533H Multi-Channel Amplifier Reviewed

Maybe I can find a dead one on eBay and swap the faceplate

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Mark Levinson No 533H Multi-Channel Amplifier Reviewed

Maybe I can find a dead one on eBay and swap the faceplate

- Rich

I hate to break it to you, but the chassis heights are different. The Levinson front panel is too short.

 

[mtrycrafts]

^^^
...
The A51 is so damn pretty. The ATI 3005, not so much

- Rich

That is a good reason to buy something

Wrong.
I bought it because you told me to

- Rich

Oh, you are soooo easy.

 

[Goliath]

Just a few questions. I've heard from the anti-DBT crowd that the tests introduce a level of stress that could affect audible differences. Isn't that possible? They also say that audible differences are more easily noticed the more time you spend using the equipment. You only appreciate the subtle differences in time that a DBT does not allow.

Any truth to that and if not, why not? I assumed memory faded over time, but I'm certainly no expert.

 

[jinjuku]

Just a few questions. I've heard from the anti-DBT crowd that the tests introduce a level of stress that could affect audible differences. Isn't that possible? They also say that audible differences are more easily noticed the more time you spend using the equipment. You only appreciate the subtle differences in time that a DBT does not allow.

Any truth to that and if not, why not? I assumed memory faded over time, but I'm certainly no expert.

For starters we aren't pushing DBT. Just SBT. Secondly at both AVS forum and Polk Audio Forums in cable 'burn-in' threads I offered $100 to charity and two sets of randomly labeled cables, two burned in and two never used, the tester would have 30 days.

So this removes:
1. Any blind testing. All testing would be sighted
2. Low stress as the participant would have plenty of time and no test administrator present
3. It would be in their own listening environment and their own equipment (also very stress reducing)

Guess how many takers?

 

[Goliath]

Thanks jinjuku. I imagine no takers. : ) Can you elaborate on auditory memory of subtle details? What I hear regularly is that people say they hear audible differences more easily once they get used to the equipment. The differences are more pronounced over time. But I also hear that audible differences are more easily noticed if the switching is done rapidly. It is a little confusing.

Is their truth in the matter of how poor human auditory memory is and if so, is there any reading material you recommend I gloss over that may shed light on this?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Just a few questions. I've heard from the anti-DBT crowd that the tests introduce a level of stress that could affect audible differences. Isn't that possible? They also say that audible differences are more easily noticed the more time you spend using the equipment. You only appreciate the subtle differences in time that a DBT does not allow.

Any truth to that and if not, why not? I assumed memory faded over time, but I'm certainly no expert.

I think the stress just manifests itself as guessing, which takes you into garbage-in-garbage-out territory. Having participated in a few audio comparison tests on electronics I find it so annoying that I refuse to participate in future tests. Obvious differences have seldom been something I've experienced with high-quality components, and IMO SBTs and DBTs are really bad at uncovering subtle differences. The problem, IMO, isn't that the testing process is invalid, it's that humans are not built for efficient or effective audio comparison testing. You get results that tell you little or nothing, unless the differences between the units under test are obvious.

 

[jinjuku]

Thanks jinjuku. I imagine no takers. : ) Can you elaborate on auditory memory of subtle details? What I hear regularly is that people say they hear audible differences more easily once they get used to the equipment. The differences are more pronounced over time. But I also hear that audible differences are more easily noticed if the switching is done rapidly. It is a little confusing.

Is their truth in the matter of how poor human auditory memory is and if so, is there any reading material you recommend I gloss over that may shed light on this?

I actually don't elaborate on that type of stuff. You simply get into the territory of subjective vs the objective. I let that cable challenge, and I consider it very friendly and accommodating, speak for itself.

It's a very neat and tidy box that they can't crawl out of:

AVS Thread

Polk Thread

See for yourself. It's pure gold . So much so that Bob Lee, Lead Applications Engineer at QSC and Secretary of Audio Engineering Society (AES) had this to say:

"Good god, those threads are hilarious! Reading through them is like watching Copernicus wander through a conference of astrologers."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We all know speakers and room make the big difference. Not subtle and slight, but big. As far as electronics goes, it is the processors that make the big difference.

Subtle and slight differences are not that important, are they? I mean subtle and slight?

So what if amps make a subtle and slight difference?

If you hook a pure class A analog preamp (no processing whatsoever) to any power-equivalent amps, the difference will be no more than "subtle and slight".

 

[3db]

Accurate auditory memory is very short so I'm very skeptical of perceived differences which are subtle that span time much longer that accurate auditory memory. If one cannot perceive differences in short term testing, I fail to see how long term testing is going differentiate anything since the window of accurately assessing the results are long passed.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Accurate auditory memory is very short so I'm very skeptical of perceived differences which are subtle that span time much longer that accurate auditory memory.

Are there any sources that I could look into that shows this? Any articles or studies that show that auditory memory is poor for subtle audio details?

 

[Grador]

Just a few questions. I've heard from the anti-DBT crowd that the tests introduce a level of stress that could affect audible differences. Isn't that possible? They also say that audible differences are more easily noticed the more time you spend using the equipment. You only appreciate the subtle differences in time that a DBT does not allow.

Any truth to that and if not, why not? I assumed memory faded over time, but I'm certainly no expert.

Unfortunately I completely agree with this. It's unfortunate since the difficulty of blind testing doesn't make a sighted test any more valid.

Overall audio is just a very difficult subject to test.

 

[Steve81]

I've heard from the anti-DBT crowd that the tests introduce a level of stress that could affect audible differences. Isn't that possible?

Toss in a couple of beers to take the edge off

My thought is that if the differences are so minute that the "stress" of performing the test can mask the results, there's not much difference to be had. Case in point, I'd expect not to have any difficulty distinguishing the bookshelf speakers in my bedroom from a pair of Philharmonics under blind conditions; even if Dennis smacked me upside the head every minute or so during the test to add some extra stress, I'd bet I could still hear the difference

 

[RichB]

Toss in a couple of beers to take the edge off

My thought is that if the differences are so minute that the "stress" of performing the test can mask the results, there's not much difference to be had. Case in point, I'd expect not to have any difficulty distinguishing the bookshelf speakers in my bedroom from a pair of Philharmonics under blind conditions; even if Dennis smacked me upside the head every minute or so during the test to add some extra stress, I'd bet I could still hear the difference

I think you need to define the test conditions better.
After how many beers?
There might be number where you are actually in your neighbor's bedroom

- Rich

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

If an experimenter does not adequately train the listeners or test subjects prior to the actual test, then hearing sensitivity would be somewhat reduced in terms of detecting audible differences between gear. Surely? How do we know all SBT or DBT's employ strenuous training? Perhaps they don't. Perhaps most don't - it's all speculative, but you would imagine they would.

 

[Grador]

If an experimenter does not adequately train the listeners or test subjects prior to the actual test, then hearing sensitivity would be somewhat reduced in terms of detecting audible differences between gear. Surely? How do we know all SBT or DBT's employ strenuous training? Perhaps they don't. Perhaps most don't - it's all speculative, but you would imagine they would.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you never want an experimenter training people for a subjective test. Having trained people is good, but never trained by the experimenter.

 

[Pyrrho]

Just a few questions. I've heard from the anti-DBT crowd that the tests introduce a level of stress that could affect audible differences. Isn't that possible? They also say that audible differences are more easily noticed the more time you spend using the equipment. You only appreciate the subtle differences in time that a DBT does not allow.

Any truth to that and if not, why not? I assumed memory faded over time, but I'm certainly no expert.

Most people don't like being proven wrong, and so they make up excuses to try to weasel out of being proven wrong.

Imagine if the stress excuse were used by a pharmaceutical company when trying to prove that a drug really works. It is just as laughable and stupid with audio. Some people make a religion out of audio and have faith that they have magical hearing abilities. Of course, they cannot prove it because they do not have magical hearing abilities, and so they make up excuses. The same sorts of BS excuses that people use who claim to have ESP that, when actually properly tested, fails.


Memory does fade over time, and you (if you are a human) cannot reliably remember very subtle differences in sound over long periods of time.

 

[Goliath]

Why is the experimenter not a good choice? BTW, are there any research papers on auditory memory? I've heard the poor auditory memory claim too many times but very little material on it. Supposedly we lose the ability to discern subtle details in a few seconds, but I would like to see more information on this.

 

[Pyrrho]

I actually don't elaborate on that type of stuff. You simply get into the territory of subjective vs the objective. I let that cable challenge, and I consider it very friendly and accommodating, speak for itself.

It's a very neat and tidy box that they can't crawl out of:

AVS Thread

Polk Thread

See for yourself. It's pure gold . So much so that Bob Lee, Lead Applications Engineer at QSC and Secretary of Audio Engineering Society (AES) had this to say:

"Good god, those threads are hilarious! Reading through them is like watching Copernicus wander through a conference of astrologers."

Yes, indeed, it is like watching Copernicus wander through a conference of astrologers. But whether it is hilarious or mind-numbingly depressing is a matter of perspective.