$2,000-3,000 Tower speaker comparison: Need help picking the contenders

[Dennis Murphy]

If you'd cryogenically freeze your XOs you wouldn't have to!

On a serious note, does the SS8, 10, 12, and Phil 2 image more precisely than the SongTower? (In a large room...)

No--not in terms of placement of instruments in the horizontal plane between the speakers. The open-back SoundScapes and Phil's do throw a deeper soundstage, but I wouldn't say the imaging is more precise laterally. That's based on comparisons with my own ST's (dome). I suspect that imaging is more dependent on frequencies in the range of fundamentals rather than overtones, and that midrange fundamentals are more important than higher treble in that respect. So that would mean frequencies in the 200-1500 Hz are proably the most important. That's just an educated guess based on my own experience and what strikes me as plausible.

 

[mike c]

I do have a question. Over on AVS one member mentioned that he thought the crossover from the midrange to the dual 8" woofers, which is at 160Hz, is too low, especially if you use the towers with subs and crossover at 80Hz. It would seem to me that is not a design flaw as long as the midrange can play down to 160hz and the crossover is done right. Any thoughts from the experts? I do agree that for HT, the extra low-end on the Ultra towers might be a waste.

i personally don't think so. the chest thump we feel during concerts or in bars and clubs is around 110hz. so there is a lot of work in that frequency range.

 

[monkish54]

... and ironically, it's speakers with "ideal" horizontal off-axis response - a la Salon2 or Philharmonic, that have the most unwanted energy in smaller rooms where the reflections are not adequately delayed.

Which is why I recommend them for large rooms not small. Someone wanted the New Revel line in his 10 x 15 room...I tried to convince him otherwise...I tried to get him to look into the Seos kits!

I think ideal horizontal off-axis is determined by room size.

The earlier and the greater in level the first room reflections are, the worsethey are. This aspect of sound perception is controversial. Some believe that all
reflections are good because they increase the listeners feeling of space – they
increase the spaciousness of the sound. While it is certainly true that all
reflections add to spaciousness, the very early ones (< 10 ms.) do so at the sake of
imaging and coloration. There is no contention that reflections > 20 ms are
positive and perceived as early reverberation and acoustic spaciousness within the
space. In small rooms, the first reflections from an arbitrary source, mainly omni-
directional, will never occur later than 10-20 ms (basically this is the definition of
a small room), hence the first reflections in small rooms must be thought of as a
serious problem that causes coloration and image blurring. These reflections must
be considered in the design and should be also be considered in the room as well. - Earl Geddes

It is also true that VERs and a short RFT do add to the perception of spaciousness, which is considered to be, by many,

a good thing, but just as certainly it is know that they detract from the ability to image the content of the source because of


the confounding influence of the VER. Toole is a strong proponent of a large amount of VER because of its increase in the


spaciousness effect. He appears to discount the negative aspects of this on imaging however. (Dr. Toole, does not make


many statements about “image”, perhaps being concerned over its loose definition.) It seems to me that if I can create “spa-


ciousness” without increasing the VER, then I can achieve the best of both worlds. This can in fact be done by making the


room fairly reverberant, particularly behind the listener, which will improve the feeling of spaciousness through the multi-


tude of lateral and rear reflections that will occur. However, the use of this technique with wide directivity speakers is not


going to yield a very good image due to the VERs from the nearer walls, and the speakers should have a fairly constant fre-


quency response in all directions, i.e. the power response, otherwise the sound quality will be colored. If the speakers do


have a narrow directivity then the frontal VERs have been lowered, hence improving the image, and yet I can still retain the


feeling of spaciousness because the room itself is fairly reverberant. In fact, if most of the reflections are coming from the


sides and rear, as opposed to the front, then the quality of the spaciousness is know to improve. Hence a narrow directivity


lowers the VERs and extends the RFT yielding good imaging, while the rooms high reverberation yields good spacious-


ness. It is most curious that this is quite often the opposite of what is done in many rooms. - Earl Geddes

Early reflections contribute to spaciousness while later reflections contribute to imaging, no? Isn't that the design principle behind GedLee designs?

the chest thump we feel during concerts or in bars and clubs is around 110hz.

That's around 50-80hz, no?

 

[mike c]

That's around 50-80hz, no?

i did an experiment before when i had a DCX2496 ... and a couple of subs playing as high as 150hz. i boosted just about every frequency, and the only time i felt some chest thump was when i boosted 110hz by 6db
i thought it was in the 50-80 range as well, so i was trying everything from dedicated subs to boosting those frequencies ...

i guess the 50-80 thump is not the same as the 110hz thump - it's not a nice sound when boosted, but i was curious where it came from.
because at the time, i always thought that it was impossible for those crappy subwoofers to have "more" thump than what my subwoofers could do.

that's when i decided to play around above the 80hz crossover.

 

[Steve81]

FWIW

 

[mike c]

^ nice. i guess i used the wrong wording. instead of chest thump. should have used the word "punch"

didn't go higher than 110hz because super low male voices started to come out the sub at those freqs (like optimus prime) and i had ported subs at that time.
if i get another 2496 in the future, i'll try with sealed subs.

 

[monkish54]

Out of curiosity, Dennis, why don't you like controlled directivity? (Not that you dislike it, but just that you don't feel it's important..)

Floyd showed that VER contribute to spaciousness, but also that VER are tied with timbre. If one can control any off-axis flares (and by theory increase accuracy of timbre) why not do it? Waveguides are cheap...

Personally, I like wide directivity speakers (Phil 2) for very large rooms (30 x 30?), and narrow directivity speakers for narrow rooms*. Either way I have a nice off-axis and minimal VER. I suppose that means I subscribe to Geddes' philosophy rather than Toole's. Toole likes to have wide directivity speakers with controlled off-axis response so there is much spaciousness and timbre is accurate. I value image over spaciousness so I'm willing to trade a little of the latter for the former. I think that is personal preference, but either way considering off-axis in a design is always a good thing...

I would like to point out the irony of discussing the importance of directivity control with the person who designed my (pretty much) controlled directivity speaker!

*I wouldn't use anything other than a narrow directivity speaker in a small room, not just because of VER, but comb filtering is an issue. With mid size rooms, it would depend on preference, IMO.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

First of all, I just don't seem to pick up on imaging. Perhaps that's because I'm used to hearing music in an auditorium, where imaging is somewhere between nonexistant and less-than-pinpoint. For most studio recordings, who knows what the right imaging is given all the processing and knob-twiddling? I do pick up on a natural ambience and soundstage depth, and that's why I've concentrated on open-back midrange designs, plus the smoothest possible on-axis and slightly off-axis response. Second, you seem to treat wave guides as a free lunch. They're not. Like any other horn device, they can introduce reflections and cancellations that are very audible, and that can negate any advantages they confer. I just shot a couple of plots of a well-known controlled-directivity speaker with a large wave guide. I won't say which it is, but it's not obscure. The on-axis response is plagued by dips and peaks introduced by the wave guide. These smooth out nicely off axis (at around 45 degrees), but the damage has been done as far as early arrivals and tonal accuracy. Obviously it's possible to avoid these problems with careful design, but a big honking wave guide is probably not the way to go. I can stand to listen to this particular speaker for about 37 seconds. Then I just have to get back to a design with flat on-axis response, albeit with some minor peaks and dips (far) off axis.

 

[monkish54]

First of all, I just don't seem to pick up on imaging. Perhaps that's because I'm used to hearing music in an auditorium, where imaging is somewhere between nonexistent and less-than-pinpoint. For most studio recordings, who knows what the right imaging is given all the processing and knob-twiddling?I do pick up on a natural ambience and soundstage depth, and that's why I've concentrated on open-back midrange designs, plus the smoothest possible on-axis and slightly off-axis response.

Well, that's certainly fair enough.

Second, you seem to treat wave guides as a free lunch. They're not. Like any other horn device, they can introduce reflections and cancellations that are very audible, and that can negate any advantages they confer.

That's when you buy yourself some GedLee HOM foam and go on with the rest of your day.

I won't say which it is, but it's not obscure.

Are you willing to say the price point?

The on-axis response is plagued by dips and peaks introduced by the wave guide. These smooth out nicely off axis (at around 45 degrees), but the damage has been done as far as early arrivals and tonal accuracy.

When you say waveguide, is it a GedLee/Revel style waveguide or a honky Klipsch type horn?

That is unfortunate to say the least!! I'm surprised you can last 37 seconds!

To be fair, I don't think that's the majority of speakers with waveguide. LSR6332 sure doesn't look like that, nor does the Salon 2, Studio 2, Dave's Echelon, GedLee Abbey, etc.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I ain't talkin', but I will say that what you see is what you get, and perhaps some of those other measurements you've seen aren't quite what you get? For the record, I will say that these are not Salons. The Harmon group knows how to implement wave guides.

 

[monkish54]

I ain't talkin', but I will say that what you see is what you get, and perhaps some of those other measurements you've seen aren't quite what you get? For the record, I will say that these are not Salons. The Harmon group knows how to implement wave guides.

If they were Salons I'd say you make a bit more money from Phil audio than I realized!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I ain't talkin', but I will say that what you see is what you get, and perhaps some of those other measurements you've seen aren't quite what you get? For the record, I will say that these are not Salons. The Harmon group knows how to implement wave guides.

Harman & TAD are good to go?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

First of all, I just don't seem to pick up on imaging. Perhaps that's because I'm used to hearing music in an auditorium, where imaging is somewhere between nonexistant and less-than-pinpoint. For most studio recordings, who knows what the right imaging is given all the processing and knob-twiddling?

I agree 100%. I don't pick up on imaging during live unamplified music concerts either.

 

[Irvrobinson]

FWIW

My own measurements show that my wife's 22" kick drum has significant output quite a bit lower than 50Hz, which makes me wonder about the accuracy of the rest of the chart.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I agree 100%. I don't pick up on imaging during live unamplified music concerts either.

For orchestras I'd have to agree too, although if I'm in the front of the balcony I can often hear a lot of specificity in where the musicians are sitting.

For small ensembles, like we heard this past weekend, imaging can be very specific, including the reflected sound field from the room.

 

[Steve81]

There's also this chart for comparison, though it doesn't have the descriptions.

 

[Nuance AH]

If they were Salons I'd say you make a bit more money from Phil audio than I realized!

Let's just say you might be surprised which speakers those measurements are from.

You still enjoying those sweet Phillies? Heckuva speaker for the money! As for your Salk Soundscape imaging question, they're very similar to the Phillies in that department. They also work okay in narrow rooms (mine is 12 feet wide), though it is certainly not ideal. I do have FR treatments, though.

 

[cpp]

I agree 100%. I don't pick up on imaging during live unamplified music concerts either.

I don't know I think it depends on where your at... The last concert the wife and I attended was Nov 30, 2012 in L.A. at the Walt Disney Concert Hall for the L.A. Philharmonic to see Esa-Pekka Salonen doing a Lutoslawski Centernary. Acoustics were excellent and I could pick out the musicians across the stage, heck I could even pick out this old man setting in west seats( we were in the front 142&143 seats) hacking so I say imaging was good.


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[Nuance AH]

Harman & TAD are good to go?

Yes, yes they are. Okay, no more clues.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know I think it depends on where your at... The last concert the wife and I attended was Nov 30, 2012 in L.A. at the Walt Disney Concert Hall for the L.A. Philharmonic to see Esa-Pekka Salonen doing a Lutoslawski Centernary. Acoustics were excellent and I could pick out the musicians across the stage, heck I could even pick out this old man setting in west seats( we were in the front 142&143 seats) hacking so I say imaging was good.

It depends on how far you are from the instruments, how many instruments are playing, and where the concert is too.

I'm sure Dennis has been to a few symphonies & concertos as well.