DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[Nuance AH]

Actually I think you most certainly can. Just like ATI can make an AMP in the USA and sell it for $1800 and a comparable amp made in China sells for $600. Are you now saying that I can't brag about my $600 purchase sounding as good as an $1800 purchase? So you are saying that the $600 amp now has to be valued some other way?

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. I will simply disagree because you cannot compare an actual corporation's costs -a corporation that has a business model and is in the business of making money - to the cost of what it takes to put together a DIY speaker. I feel like a broken record here, and it seems the points I've made are not sinking in. Stop, take a deep breath and look passed your biases. It's a simple comparison of a corporation with certain restrictions, regulations, costs and a specific business model to a one-man-show with no deadlines, fan base or real rules to adhere to.

You example is moot because of the differing values in labor and currency among differing countries.

I never said you cannot compare sound quality, by the way. In fact, I said that you can. What I said was the cost comparison is irrelevant because it isn't apples to apples. If you cannot or refuse to understand that...well, to each their own.

 

[Nuance AH]

I get to point were I sometimes just don't care if a speaker measures great or not, but I do care how does it sounds in my room using my equipment, regardless of the cost.

Honestly, how they sound to you in your room is the most important thing. Many people seem to forget that. With that said, measurements are a fantastic tool/aid, but considering most speakers don't get measured by third party sources measurements aren't nearly as helpful as they could be.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I get to point were I sometimes just don't care if a speaker measures great or not, but I do care how does it sounds in my room using my equipment, regardless of the cost.

The question of this thread is, can you build your own speakers BETTER than the pros?

But "better" subjectively or objectively is open to interpretation.

Subjective, I'm sure some people do think their DIY speakers sound better than the TAD R1, Salon2 & JBL Everest, KEF Muon & Blade, etc.

Subjectively probably 80% of the population also thinks Bose sounds awesome, which is perfectly peachy to me. But for comparison, I think keeping it objective is the fair thing to do.

 

[panteragstk]

I actually agree with you. My personal definition of DIY only applies to the topic at hand (speakers). Design It Yourself in other facets of engineering is much more difficult IMO. I like your extreme DIY phrase...perhaps I'll start using that.

Gotha. I can't help but attribute DIY to all the other DIY stuff I do. While I like to think I'm fairly handy, there are certain things I wouldn't dream of doing for the simple fact that I don't have the experience. Designing a speaker is one of them. Building one is not. I plan to do that pretty soon actually. Not in a hurry, but still excited to build some.

 

[cpp]

The question of this thread is, can you build your own speakers BETTER than the pros?

.

Better in who's opinion, the builder, a friend who listened to them, or from some magazine that actually measured them and gave their opinion.

If the builder used the same parts and material as a "pro" builder" and had the design smarts to get the job done, who knows

 

[Nuance AH]

Gotha. I can't help but attribute DIY to all the other DIY stuff I do. While I like to think I'm fairly handy, there are certain things I wouldn't dream of doing for the simple fact that I don't have the experience. Designing a speaker is one of them. Building one is not. I plan to do that pretty soon actually. Not in a hurry, but still excited to build some.

May I ask what your DIY project plans are? I enjoy watching a good DIY project come into reality.

 

[jinjuku]

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. I will simply disagree because you cannot compare an actual corporation's costs -a corporation that has a business model and is in the business of making money - to the cost of what it takes to put together a DIY speaker. I feel like a broken record here, and it seems the points I've made are not sinking in. Stop, take a deep breath and look passed your biases. It's a simple comparison of a corporation with certain restrictions, regulations, costs and a specific business model to a one-man-show with no deadlines, fan base or real rules to adhere to.

You example is moot because of the differing values in labor and currency among differing countries.

I never said you cannot compare sound quality, by the way. In fact, I said that you can. What I said was the cost comparison is irrelevant because it isn't apples to apples. If you cannot or refuse to understand that...well, to each their own.

I wouldn't say your points aren't sinking in. I would just say for my part they aren't valid and don't apply. My labor rate is no more or less fair than China's labor rate to ATI's manufacturing. It isn't meant to be fair. THAT is the entire point.

I also brew. At one point having my own Hops garden and full bore mash tun/lauter tun. The werx... I've also been PAID to brew a batch for people .

 

[panteragstk]

Better in who's opinion, the builder, a friend who listened to them, or from some magazine that actually measured them and gave their opinion.

If the builder used the same parts and material as a "pro" builder" and had the design smarts to get the job done, who knows

I think this is one of the problems with this discussion. Almost all of it is subjective. I've never seen a thread or heard anyone say "look at the speakers I built. It cost $1000 and took six months, boy do they sound terrible." We need to get Gene to test a well know DIY speaker so we can actually see what a pro we all trust thinks. We all know he'll do the measurements we all want as well. Now to for him to have the time and desire to do so is another story. Plus, we'd have to get him some speakers to actually test. Jin?

 

[jinjuku]

I think this is one of the problems with this discussion. Almost all of it is subjective. I've never seen a thread or heard anyone say "look at the speakers I built. It cost $1000 and took six months, boy do they sound terrible." We need to get Gene to test a well know DIY speaker so we can actually see what a pro we all trust thinks. We all know he'll do the measurements we all want as well. Now to for him to have the time and desire to do so is another story. Plus, we'd have to get him some speakers to actually test. Jin?

I've publicly put the offer in on DIY speakers and Pro-Audio amps. That is to get something in Gene's hands....

 

[panteragstk]

May I ask what your DIY project plans are? I enjoy watching a good DIY project come into reality.

I have two builds I plan to do. One is a set of mini statements, the other is monitor statements. Those seem to be some of the most highly regarded builds out there. There are others, but the frequency response of the ones I mentioned will do what I want. Smaller speakers will require a sub, which I don't want in the area's I plan to use them. Plus, ribbon tweeters grew on me from when I sold Adam monitors. I've always wanted to hear Adam's consumer audio, but no dealers anywhere near me seem to carry them.

 

[panteragstk]

I've publicly put the offer in on DIY speakers and Pro-Audio amps. That is to get something in Gene's hands....

I seem to remember you saying that. I think the DIY speakers will be easier to get him to do than the amp. One battle at a time. He didn't seem to keen on the pro amp review last time he said anything about it.

 

[monkish54]

It isn't meant to be fair. THAT is the entire point.
.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier...clearly I failed.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think this is one of the problems with this discussion. Almost all of it is subjective. I've never seen a thread or heard anyone say "look at the speakers I built. It cost $1000 and took six months, boy do they sound terrible." We need to get Gene to test a well know DIY speaker so we can actually see what a pro we all trust thinks. We all know he'll do the measurements we all want as well. Now to for him to have the time and desire to do so is another story. Plus, we'd have to get him some speakers to actually test. Jin?

Exactly. Everyone has an opinion. How do you really compare based on just subjective opinions?

The only fair way to compare is with objective measurements done in the same room by the same person. If that cannot be done, then the next best thing would be comparing measurements from 2 different persons & rooms. It's clearly not as fair as option #1, but probably more fair than basing on purely subjective opinions since everyone thinks his speakers sound great.

 

[Nuance AH]

I wouldn't say your points aren't sinking in. I would just say for my part they aren't valid and don't apply. My labor rate is no more or less fair than China's labor rate to ATI's manufacturing. It isn't meant to be fair. THAT is the entire point.

But China still applies a labor rate; you don't. Not apples to apples.

I also brew. At one point having my own Hops garden and full bore mash tun/lauter tun. The werx... I've also been PAID to brew a batch for people .

Now that is cool.

I have two builds I plan to do. One is a set of mini statements, the other is monitor statements. Those seem to be some of the most highly regarded builds out there. There are others, but the frequency response of the ones I mentioned will do what I want. Smaller speakers will require a sub, which I don't want in the area's I plan to use them. Plus, ribbon tweeters grew on me from when I sold Adam monitors. I've always wanted to hear Adam's consumer audio, but no dealers anywhere near me seem to carry them.

Very nice! Those mini-Statements look superb! And look at those measurements. I look forward to your build.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier...clearly I failed.

A little bit yes, but you get an "A" for effort!

 

[jinjuku]

But China still applies a labor rate; you don't. Not apples to apples.

Ok, I'll assign a Chinese labor rate of $3/hr. So my Statements cost me $1400. Happy now?

 

[Nuance AH]

Ok, I'll assign a Chinese labor rate of $3/hr. So my Statements cost my $1400. Happy now?

LOL - touche!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Actually I think you most certainly can. Just like ATI can make an AMP in the USA and sell it for $1800 and a comparable amp made in China sells for $600. Are you now saying that I can't brag about my $600 purchase sounding as good as an $1800 purchase? So you are saying that the $600 amp now has to be valued some other way?

I agree, and I don't see the argument people are making that the value of your time is a factor. I'd argue that if you enjoy the process of speaker construction your time has a *negative* value economically, because you're getting more out of the process than just a speaker.

As for the ATI amp comparison, that doesn't work so well. In the Emotiva XPA-2 versus ATI AT3002 case, where the prices line up so well that I wonder if these aren't the two amps you're specifically thinking of, they aren't so comparable as they appear. The ATI amp has a more sophisticated and expensive circuit topology, a more robust design (e.g. twice the number of output transistors), better switchware, more power supply capability, and so on. If you're arguing that doesn't make an audible difference you might be right, but IMO one gets more with the ATI than US labor versus Chinese labor. I know amplifiers are a lousy example because they are difficult to tell apart, but I assume this DIY discussion includes drivers of comparable quality, finishes of comparable quality, etc. Otherwise, I really would rather pay more and invest in a speaker with higher quality drivers and whatever, just because I would want to avoid disappointment down the road should the lesser drivers (just as an example) really not be as good.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Can anyone explain to me why an imaginary labour rate must be applied to a DIY speaker? All kinds of figures have been tossed around, but since none of them are "real", nobody can agree on what the proper rate should be. How is stating the labour cost to be $0 somehow illegimate? If a commercial operation built the Statements and had to charge $3300, in order to make a reasonable profit, does it make the speakers 3 times better? No, their performance would be no different.

If Jin wants the performance of the "best" $10,000 commercial speaker and is unable/unwilling to pay that much, is it somehow wrong to build some himself? Of course not. If his speakers are independently evaluated and confirmed to be equal or better performers than the $10,000 commercial speaker, is that not legitimate? It's not a slight against the commercial speaker. We all know they have to include their non-material costs and include a profit. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that he paid $1100 to build them, is completely incidental to anyone but him. He is out-of-pocket $1100. Period.

Of course, it could turn out that an independent evaluation determines that they aren't as good as the benchmark $10,000 commercial speaker. Maybe they're only as good as the best $5000 speakers. Does that make the statements junk? No, of course not.

The question posed in the article is "Can you build better than professional designs?". That's actually a pretty vague question. If I slap together a pile of junk and sell it to some poor schmuck, does that make me a professional? Nope. Would it be easy to better the performance of a typical Bose product for the same or less money? Probably. The question isn't "can you build better than the best professional designs". That gives the DIYer a lot of leeway.

 

[Chu Gai]

Can anyone explain to me why an imaginary labour rate must be applied to a DIY speaker? All kinds of figures have been tossed around, but since none of them are "real", nobody can agree on what the proper rate should be. How is stating the labour cost to be $0 somehow illegimate? If a commercial operation built the Statements and had to charge $3300, in order to make a reasonable profit, does it make the speakers 3 times better? No, their performance would be no different.

Well, all kind of figures have been tossed around because nobody but Jin knows or can guesstimate what he would've been paid on the open market had he been able to and chosen to do so. I think it would've been personally a bit disheartening to him had he found that a commercial $1100 speaker and his was a wash. BTW, I did look at Jin's build thread and it's very impressive. Those cutouts were like intricate crop circles.

Now, as to a DIY effort's performance, that's a good question. There's certainly one's ears but there's also measurements. For a person who does not measure, and not just on axis FR, how does he know that all his efforts resulted in a speaker that performed as well as the original that was copied?

If Jin wants the performance of the "best" $10,000 commercial speaker and is unable/unwilling to pay that much, is it somehow wrong to build some himself? Of course not. If his speakers are independently evaluated and confirmed to be equal or better performers than the $10,000 commercial speaker, is that not legitimate? It's not a slight against the commercial speaker. We all know they have to include their non-material costs and include a profit. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that he paid $1100 to build them, is completely incidental to anyone but him. He is out-of-pocket $1100. Period.

Please note that I have not stated that he was wrong to build the speakers. I would hope that the design he chose was intended to not simply be equivalent to $1100 speakers but speakers costing far in excess of that.

Of course, it could turn out that an independent evaluation determines that they aren't as good as the benchmark $10,000 commercial speaker. Maybe they're only as good as the best $5000 speakers. Does that make the statements junk? No, of course not.

I agree. What though if the efforts were only good as $1100 speakers. Or speakers that were used and could be bought for $1100? What then? Me, I don't know but what say you?

The question posed in the article is "Can you build better than professional designs?". That's actually a pretty vague question. If I slap together a pile of junk and sell it to some poor schmuck, does that make me a professional? Nope. Would it be easy to better the performance of a typical Bose product for the same or less money? Probably. The question isn't "can you build better than the best professional designs". That gives the DIYer a lot of leeway.

Well you know, a thread that gets a lot of views in part because of its controversialality is good for Gene. Bumps his metrics up and gets the advertisers to pay up.

 

[jinjuku]

Another nice DIY build. AVS Thread.