DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
I think I like the room better than the speakers!!! They are rather well done too though ;)
Haha, I like the room better too - very cool looking. He did a nice job on the build too, of course, but how do they sound? :) We'll never know...
 
mattsk8

mattsk8

Full Audioholic
I'm just coming into this extremely interesting thread, so I'm sorry if I rehash already discussed topics.

I'm going to fire out and answer that first question of, "Can you build better than professional designs" w/ a resounding yes you can. Ironically, if you would have asked me that question 3 years ago I would have said no way. My answer probably would have included statements like, "There's no way someone in their garage can design and build a speaker that sounds as good as anything offered even in the $500 price range", or "You could try, but I think you'll have around $10k into your speakers and they'll sound almost as good as some Infinity RS-5 towers".

Fast forward 3 years and 3 builds later (I've built the Tritrix MTM TLs, the Statements, and the ER18s) and I've completely changed my tune (pun intended :p).

This all started when I joined this forum to seek out some answers about a Yamaha HT receiver I purchased. Then I decided to ask if anyone had ever rebuilt cabinets for their own speakers; this was my thread about that, Anyone ever make their own cabinets? I eventually ended up in the DIY speaker section and this was my first thread there, Where to begin? The "Where to begin" thread is a really good read for anyone looking to tackle DIY speakers, it answered a LOT of questions for me.

When I first started the Tritrix I was scheptical at best, but I figured I only had about $180 invested so I may as well give it a whirl and have some fun w/ it. Once I got them done, I'll be honest and admit that originally I thought my $500 Infinity towers sounded better. The Infinitys seemed to produce a little better bass and seemed to sparkle a bit more on the top. But, after I gave them a day or 2 the Tritrix really started to shine. The Tritrix never got that sparkly top end the Infinitys had, and the Infinitys did still have a wee bit more bass on the low end, but the Tritrix would play waaaay louder w/out distortion and the mids were a lot more real and defined. I quickly learned that what I was hearing in those Infinitys that I thought I liked, but didn't hear in the Tritrix, is a manufactured sparkle rather than a real sounding speaker. I think of the manufactured sparkle a lot like someone turning up the bass and treble; yes it gives more bass and treble, but it sounds like crap. Over the years I think I'd just become used to that manufactured sound as the norm and thought it was what made a speaker good.

Here's where the answer to that first question gets a bit foggy though. I've seen some guys come and go that think they're going to make some $5k speakers for $200 and I still haven't seen that happen. Another HUGE flaw in a lot of the plans to try to do something like building your own speakers just to save money over buying them is the tooling it takes just to do a decent job w/ the woodwork that goes into building a speaker. I was fortunate that I already had somewhere in the neighborhood of over $10k in tools because I was a cabinet maker. That said, you have to have some form of passion for woodworking before I would say you should jump into speaker building. I hope that doesn't discourage anyone from attempting to build; I'm not saying at all that you need $10k in tools to build a nice pair of speakers. I built my first custom kitchen for a customer using a Dewalt skilsaw, a cheaper portable Hitachi table saw, and a Bosch router table w/ a Porter Cable router in it and I did it successfully. But, you do have to have a passion for woodworking.

To surmize an answer to that question, I think I can and think I have built speakers that are better than ones you can buy manufactured. I'm not saying they're the bestest ever, badest to the bone, no one makes speakers that are better, blah blah blah; but they do sound pretty phenomenal and you would be in a fairly substantial price point to improve on their sound. And that's not just my opinion, it's shared by everyone that's listened to them. The main factor in that equation is that I have months into each of the builds, but its a hobby that I love. And I actually owe a huge thanks to you guys on this forum in the DIY section for all the help you've given me and for taking the time to answer all my questions. I literally went from a complete noob w/ a little understanding, but no where near what I needed to do what I've done, to someone that's not afraid to tackle something like this. If you rephrased that question to "Can you design and build better", I would change my tune completely. But, given all the proven designs that the DIY gurus came up w/ that are available to the general public, you can definitely build yourself some fantastic sounding speakers. Another huge factor is that I don't necessarily build speakers because I think I can do better, I do it because standing back and listening to the work of my hands is extremely rewarding!

I would post some pics of the speakers I've built, but for whatever reason w/ the changes done to the forum I can't; it says my files are too big.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I would post some pics of the speakers I've built, but for whatever reason w/ the changes done to the forum I can't; it says my files are too big.
Congrats on your builds. You can compress and resize photos easily with Irfanview.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Fast forward 3 years and 3 builds later (I've built the Tritrix MTM TLs, the Statements, and the ER18s) and I've completely changed my tune (pun intended :p).
That's just the thing. You won't get a completely impartial answer from anyone.

Those you DIY will say "Yes", & those who buy PRO will say "No".

And if we are basing this question on pure personal preference, it becomes a your-word-against-my-word situation with zero objectivity and 100% subjectivity and we have complete deadlock.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
That's just the thing. You won't get a completely impartial answer from anyone.

Those you DIY will say "Yes", & those who buy PRO will say "No".

And if we are basing this question on pure personal preference, it becomes a your-word-against-my-word situation with zero objectivity and 100% subjectivity and we have complete deadlock.
At least his is a qualified yes.
 
mattsk8

mattsk8

Full Audioholic
That's just the thing. You won't get a completely impartial answer from anyone.

Those you DIY will say "Yes", & those who buy PRO will say "No".

And if we are basing this question on pure personal preference, it becomes a your-word-against-my-word situation with zero objectivity and 100% subjectivity and we have complete deadlock.
What situation would the sound of a speaker be objective rather than subjective? Have you ever heard a pair of DIY speakers and if so, which ones?

I still can't put pics on this forum anymore so I'm just going to post links to my builds.

Tritrix build (If you click the link, you'll see its titled ER18 build, but it is the thread for finishing the Tritrix :))

ER18 build

Statements build
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
What situation would the sound of a speaker be objective rather than subjective? Have you ever heard a pair of DIY speakers and if so, which ones?

I still can't put pics on this forum anymore so I'm just going to post links to my builds.

Tritrix build (If you click the link, you'll see its titled ER18 build, but it is the thread for finishing the Tritrix :))

ER18 build

Statements build
very nice matt well done
 
mattsk8

mattsk8

Full Audioholic
Very nice work indeed, that's something I can never dream to even try. Now if you can build your next pair with curved cabinets..
I think you're selling yourself short;)
I agree completely w/ ahblaza. It was only through years of playing and working that I know what little I do now (I'm 37 years old btw). I didn't know anything about woodworking until I was in my 20s and I just kept researching and trying. Don't sell yourself short, but you do have to have the passion :).

As far as curved cabinets go, I do know the process and materials that go into doing it. I might try to implement that on my next build, but I'm still not a huge fan of super curvy speakers; I still like the conventional square box.

The ones in my links were the first 3 speakers I've ever built, so I was nervous about changing much of anything in the designer's plans. The next ones on my radar are called Stance; they were designed by Ben Shaffer. I heard these at a DIY demo and they sound amazing, I'm thinking of building 5 of them for my HT system. Here's a link to a kit and to the pdf of the cabinet structure Stance (Pair). I might try something w/ a semi-curved cabinet for these, but I'm still way in the air on whether or not I'll build these or something else.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
What situation would the sound of a speaker be objective rather than subjective?
The question was not "Can you build a speaker that subjective sounds better than Pro?" If it were, there would be no arguments since you can't argue against subjective opinions. There is no point debating what someone prefers subjectively.

The question was "Can you build a BETTER speaker than Pro?" If it is to be debatable, I think it needs to be strictly objective measurements.

If someone says "I've compared Bose to Salon2 three times with level matching, and I prefer Bose over Salon2 all three times", all you can say is "Okay, if that's what you prefer, then that's what you prefer".

But if someone says, Bose measures better than Salon2, then you can actually debate and win. :D
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
The question was not "Can you build a speaker that subjective sounds better than Pro?" If it were, there would be no arguments since you can't argue against subjective opinions. There is no point debating what someone prefers subjectively.The question was "Can you build a BETTER speaker than Pro?" If it is to be debatable, I think it needs to be strictly objective measurements. If someone says "I've compared Bose to Salon2 three times with level matching, and I prefer Bose over Salon2 all three times", all you can say is "Okay, if that's what you prefer, then that's what you prefer". But if someone says, Bose measures better than Salon2, then you can actually debate and win. :D
Personally I think this whole thread was a setup for failure at the start. In one corner we have DIY and the other corner we have those that have never heard a well built DIY speaker and probably would have a hard time screwing to boards together and those that would argue without any real facts. So here we have this useless point - counter point and have no supporting measurements or an actual DIY speaker in our ( everyone commenting except the DIY) hands to form an objective opinion. Now if we take Philharmonic, AJ, and Selah, speakers who actually are a higher tier DIY then we do have measurements. So where does the line get drawn on a DIY'er project, anyone can make a webpage and sell anything, anyone can build something in their garage and after all, all PRO's started out as DIY. So the only real merit this post has is that, we have been shown that there are normal DIY'er ( not selling their products) out there that have the skills to build some rather nicely constructed speakers for their personal enjoyment, have we heard them not really, has there been any measurements performed on them, not really but their hobby has merit and to their eyes they can build a pretty nice cabinet that sounds good. So the object of this thread is pretty much moot, since when can you make an opinion between items DIY and PRO if you can't hold it, heard it, see it and measurement it. Right now it's pretty slanted one-sided towards PRO with no real chance to prove a DIY can be better than PRO unless a DIY would like to submit a speaker for measurement or maybe perform the measure in their home for submitting to the forum. Then we can move on. For DIY'er that have the skills to perform nice cabinet work, I commend you on a job well done.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Personally I think this whole thread was a setup for failure at the start. In one corner we have DIY and the other corner we have those that have never heard a well built DIY speaker and probably would have a hard time screwing to boards together and those that would argue without any real facts. So here we have this useless point - counter point and have no supporting measurements or an actual DIY speaker in our ( everyone commenting except the DIY) hands to form an objective opinion. Now if we take Philharmonic, AJ, and Selah, speakers who actually are a higher tier DIY then we do have measurements. So where does the line get drawn on a DIY'er project, anyone can make a webpage and sell anything, anyone can build something in their garage and after all, all PRO's started out as DIY. So the only real merit this post has is that, we have been shown that there are normal DIY'er ( not selling their products) out there that have the skills to build some rather nicely constructed speakers for their personal enjoyment, have we heard them not really, has there been any measurements performed on them, not really but their hobby has merit and to their eyes they can build a pretty nice cabinet that sounds good. So the object of this thread is pretty much moot, since when can you make an opinion between items DIY and PRO if you can't hold it, heard it, see it and measurement it. Right now it's pretty slanted one-sided towards PRO with no real chance to prove a DIY can be better than PRO unless a DIY would like to submit a speaker for measurement or maybe perform the measure in their home for submitting to the forum. Then we can move on. For DIY'er that have the skills to perform nice cabinet work, I commend you on a job well done.
I think we agree with on this one, though it seems like we typically don't.:D I ignore this thread for a long time because of what you said in your first sentence. I got interested when I did some accidentally clicking and saw those nicely built ones in someones home based workshop/garage? So I thought if someone is good with woodworking they can make the cabinet professional looking nice, then if they use good drivers such as those by Scanspeak and crossovers designed by people who know what they are doing plus throwing in high quality components, then the only thing missing is the cabinet design from acoustic standpoint. Anyway, at this point it is mainly admiration I have for those talent people. it is not something I would try but I would certainly try DIY on the electronic side, whenever time permitting becomes applicable in my world. Thank goodness we don't have a similar thread for the electronics.:D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The question was not "Can you build a speaker that subjective sounds better than Pro?" If it were, there would be no arguments since you can't argue against subjective opinions. There is no point debating what someone prefers subjectively.

The question was "Can you build a BETTER speaker than Pro?" If it is to be debatable, I think it needs to be strictly objective measurements.
Curt Campbell / Jim Holtz "Finalist". SFF 3 way with an open back mid tunnel.



In room:









 

Attachments

mattsk8

mattsk8

Full Audioholic
The question was not "Can you build a speaker that subjective sounds better than Pro?" If it were, there would be no arguments since you can't argue against subjective opinions. There is no point debating what someone prefers subjectively.

The question was "Can you build a BETTER speaker than Pro?" If it is to be debatable, I think it needs to be strictly objective measurements.

If someone says "I've compared Bose to Salon2 three times with level matching, and I prefer Bose over Salon2 all three times", all you can say is "Okay, if that's what you prefer, then that's what you prefer".

But if someone says, Bose measures better than Salon2, then you can actually debate and win. :D
I guess I don't understand where your stance is on the subject then. What's the real difference between a DIY speaker and manufactured one? CNC milled panels? Mass produced xovers? Drivers made strictly for that design?

I don't understand at all how anyone could even argue the question of whether or not a speaker can sound better as a DIY vs manufactured. Of coarse they can, and there are measurements to prove that. The real struggle is where you draw the line on price; I have about $1000.00ish into my ER18s after all the materials, complete and done. It can be done cheaper, but that's roughly what I have into them. I also have about 2 or so 40hr weeks into building them, if I added all my time up. But if I needed to mock those same ones, I could easily do it in a week and if I was mass producing parts I could probably knock that down to about 3 days. So, since I have 2- 40 hour weeks into the build, plus $1k into materials I should value these at around $4k?? I don't see it that way. I got a lot of satisfaction out of the build; I got to teach my son and daughter a bit more about woodworking and speaker design, and until I blow one of them to smitherenes ;), I get to sit back and listen to something I created and that really is hard to put a price on.

I don't think the question should be "Can you build better than professional designs?", of coarse you can and anyone that argues different has never heard a pair of Statements or ER18s. I think a better question would be, "Is it worth building your own over buying manufactured?". That question can only be answered by the individual. To me it's well worth it on soooooo many levels; but to you it obviously isn't. And its not worth it to me because I'm arrogant and think I'm better at it than professional speaker manufacturers (although a lot of the mass produced cabinets these days are junk), I do it because I love woodworking and I can make the speakers look EXACTLY the way I want.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I don't think the question should be "Can you build better than professional designs?", of coarse you can and anyone that argues different has never heard a pair of Statements or ER18s. I think a better question would be, "Is it worth building your own over buying manufactured?". That question can only be answered by the individual. To me it's well worth it on soooooo many levels; but to you it obviously isn't. And its not worth it to me because I'm arrogant and think I'm better at it than professional speaker manufacturers (although a lot of the mass produced cabinets these days are junk), I do it because I love woodworking and I can make the speakers look EXACTLY the way I want.
I think this sums up the entire question perfectly. I fall into the "it isn't worth it" category, but I'm a DIY fan in other areas, so I understand the attraction.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top