DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[monkish54]

I never said DIY can't build as good a speaker by the way. I think your assuming that's what I meant.

Then I don't disagree with anything you've said. An ID company is just as valid and can design just as well as a B&M company.

Companies that are willing to customize offer something even better than B&M, IMO.

Hey, Jim, can you tweak the BSC Inductor and Resistor for me, I want to place this BS speakers on-wall?

Can you front port my SongTowers I want to place these near a wall?

Can you use a Beyma TPL-150 instead of a RAAL?

Most B&M have one set design for everyone. It's not practical.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agreed, these are some great examples of companies that have slim margins in their products due to quality of parts and craftsmanship. Ascends is one that really stands out IMO b/c their stuff is very affordable despite the level of parts and performance offered.

Ascend & Philharmonic have slim margins for sure.

But do you consider the Salk Soundscape 12 piano high-gloss for $19K slim margins?

 

[monkish54]

Ascend & Philharmonic have slim margins sure.

But do you consider the Salk Soundscape 12 piano high-gloss for $19K slim margins?

I'd say Salk has some pretty small margins. Probably not 2.8%, but slim. The SoundScape is very expensive to produce. Those woofers + passive radiators cost a ton, the tweeters cost a fortune (if not Jim's first born), the cabinet is very complex and very heavy, the woodworking is second to none, the crossover is complex with expensive parts.

While I probably wouldn't spend 16K on the SS12 (there are offerings more suited for my goals in the same price range), it's priced at 16K because the cost to build is high.

Look at those AE woofers! I got a pair for $406 out of luck. Normally it would have cost me $527 for the pair. Now factor in the "custom" cost.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be J. Salk while ordering a pair of AE woofers! F that!

The RAAL 70-20XR is $1295/pr (DIRECT from the manufacturer!)

I have no idea how much the passives cost, but probably not a small amount!

Jim once said 40% of the cost is parts. 40% of $16,000 is $6,400. A speaker that costs $6,400 to build would retail for $32,000!!

$6,400 is only 20% the total cost of the 32K SS12!

That's one great thing about DIY...I can build an SS12 for a lot less than 16K! That's the benefit of not having any employees to pay!

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think he's looking at it as some sort of a bell curve distribution of DIY'ers and the really good ones represent some small area to the left. Take a look at PartsExpress and when you look at some of the drivers, read the comments from folks who've bought them and draw your own opinions on whether they really know what they're doing.

If that's what he meant, that's what he should have said! I don't doubt that plenty of DIYers just throw drivers and crossover parts into a box and call it the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe it's the majority - I don't know. I do know that I wouldn't do it that way. I'm under no illusion that I have the necessary knowledge to design a good speaker. But, I'm good with my hands though and know how to follow instructions. So, if I'm planning to roll my own, I'll find a proven design that fits my budget. Perhaps it would be a kit, like the Orions (if my budget was sufficient). The point is, even if the majority of DIYers are incompetent, it doesn't mean they all are. And, if his article was aimed at that supposed majority, he should have made that distinction.

 

[Chu Gai]

We're really talking about Salk, Philharmonic, Ascend. I don't think those companies lack solid parts and construction.

KEF sells direct at dealer prices. They make more of the profit, and sell more speakers distributing themselves, but pass none of the savings onto me. They also use very few crossover parts..

I like KEF, but let's not pretend (no offense) they would be selling the SoundScape 12 for 16K or the Philharmonic 3 for 3.5K...

Walmart, Sears, Lowes, etc. also sell direct with generally the same prices as you'll find in the stores. Don't be surprised if one day you'll order something from Amazon and be able to pick it up at your local Best Buy store. However, if it just so happens that there's no nearby dealer carrying the model you're interested in, then maybe online is the better deal. No need to have to make a 100 or more mile round trip and incur gas, tolls, traffic, time, etc.

As for not having as having few crossover parts, I don't know that they do. But since when is that an indicator of quality? The amount you need is what the design calls for. One could make an argument that in this particular case, less is better since the signal spends less time in the crossover and more in the drivers. There's a certain elegance to simplicity.

I like Salk too, but let's not think KEF is suddenly going to decide to start deviating from what they know best. Besides, 16K is the entry level price for the 12's and most everyone that I read about who buys their speakers wants something custom with the veneer and Salk accommodates. Offering upgrades with respect to finishes and even crossover components appears to be one of the compelling features because now you've got something unique. Guys, are now able to indulge their fashionista, meterosexual side! This hasn't been lost on other manufacturers as Axiom does the same thing.

But to think KEF could not make the same product for less, I'm not so sure about. Is there sufficient demand to warrant the development? Would they use the same drivers or engineer their own? At prices in the vicinity of what a small car might cost, I don't see 12's or for that matter ~18K speakers flying off the shelves.

 

[monkish54]

As for not having as having few crossover parts, I don't know that they do.

Read their literature. They are a "low order rules" company. Look at the Q900 response...cone breakup because no LCR and not steep enough filter.

But since when is that an indicator of quality?

It is well known that a single cap and coil (which they use in some speakers) tend to have poor power handling and poor driver integration. KEF's Blade has drivers that are very well engineered so as to eliminate many problems with low order crossovers. I have yet to see measurements, but I thought it sounded pretty good! (Whatever that is worth..)

Anyway, I wasn't talking about quality, but cost. Less crossover parts...less cost!

One could make an argument that in this particular case, less is better since the signal spends less time in the crossover and more in the drivers.

With poor power handling and integration. Not always of course, even though KEF uses low-order (electrical) crossovers, there speakers measure fairly well.

Most of the time, however, first-order is lackluster in my opinion.

Identifying Legitimately High Fidelity Loudspeakers: Myths & Facts about Crossovers — Reviews and News from Audioholics

But to think KEF could not make the same product for less, I'm not so sure about.

I'm sure they could make it for less. They'd buy all the drivers from the manufacturer..

I don't think they'd sell it for less. You think the Blade costs anywhere near 30K to make? NO WAY!

Would they use the same drivers or engineer their own?

I think you misunderstood the point of my post. It was simply a response to Gene saying that some B&M sell direct so it levels the playing field. My point was the field isn't level if they sell the products at dealer price.

At prices in the vicinity of what a small car might cost....Is there sufficient demand to warrant the development?

KEF Muon

 

[jinjuku]

For the last 12 years, in several forums (not just this one), I've been reading absurdly rude and arrogant comments being made by not just some DIYers, but often by arrogant "Audiophiles" where they thoroughly, viciously and arrogantly hammer mainstream loudspeaker designers/engineers and deneigrate them to no end. With zero concern or regard in the words they choose. With zero self-awareness, zero modesty and zero humility.

In the context of AH, can you post some links to these egregious threads?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's one great thing about DIY...I can build an SS12 for a lot less than 16K! That's the benefit of not having any employees to pay!

I think everyone who is willing to shell out $16K for a SS12 is going for piano high-gloss. So $18K + $500 shipping is more like it. Plus other "unique" upgrades that will "enhance" the sound quality.

But here was my point. Assume you love the aesthetic of the B&W 802D2. I know some people wouldn't even want the 802D2 for free if you gave it to them. But assume you just gotta have that body.

Could a DIY build a Marlan Head and that big massive curved body? Could you bend 20 layers of wood with your bare hands? How much would the required machines cost you?

And let's also assume you have this thing for diamond tweeters. I know some people wouldn't even want free diamond tweeters if you gave it to them. But let's assume you just gotta have diamond tweeters. How much would you have to spend to build the 802D2 with diamond tweeters ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But to think KEF could not make the same product for less, I'm not so sure about. Is there sufficient demand to warrant the development? Would they use the same drivers or engineer their own? At prices in the vicinity of what a small car might cost, I don't see 12's or for that matter ~18K speakers flying off the shelves.

I think giant companies like KEF, Revel, TAD, B&W, etc, could build the SS12 in mass quantities for a lot less, including the cost of sending the speakers to Soundstage/NRC & Stereophile, which the SS12 will never get. They would build their own drivers in-house or partner up with a company to significantly reduce cost. They have multimillion dollar machines that could build the speakers in days, instead of months.

 

[monkish54]

How much would you have to spend to build the 802D2 with diamond tweeters ?

There is only one diamond tweeter (Beryllium is better..you should use it instead.) I know of and it costs a fortune! Much more than I would ever spend on a tweeter! Save the 2.5K and get your wife a pair of diamond earrings!

The Madisound Speaker Store

I do believe SB (or maybe it was Scan) is coming out with a diamond tweeter that will be more modestly priced.

As for the cabinet:

http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Exclamations.html

He did it!

 

[psbfan9]

Could a DIY build a Marlan Head and that big massive curved body? Could you bend 20 layers of wood with your bare hands? How much would the required machines cost you?

Um, yes.
I have done it. As far as machinery, we did it the old fashioned way using steam and pressure to add curves to the wood. It's time consuming and labor intesive, but it can be done by an average person. Trust me, I know average.

 

[cpp]

I think everyone who is willing to shell out $16K for a SS12 is going for piano high-gloss. So $18K + $500 shipping is more like it. Plus other "unique" upgrades that will "enhance" the sound quality.

But here was my point. Assume you love the aesthetic of the B&W 802D2. I know some people wouldn't even want the 802D2 for free if you gave it to them. But assume you just gotta have that body.

Could a DIY build a Marlan Head and that big massive curved body? Could you bend 20 layers of wood with your bare hands? How much would the required machines cost you?

And let's also assume you have this thing for diamond tweeters. I know some people wouldn't even want free diamond tweeters if you gave it to them. But let's assume you just gotta have diamond tweeters. How much would you have to spend to build the 802D2 with diamond tweeters ?

To address your questions, one word fits. Money.. A DIY'er with money can do pretty much anything he wants and obtain the resources and products he wants.

 

[psbfan9]

Seriously Nuance? Dude you need a time out.

 

[Nuance AH]

Ascend & Philharmonic have slim margins for sure.

But do you consider the Salk Soundscape 12 piano high-gloss for $19K slim margins?

Your vendetta against Salk is pretty obvious. Try researching the original SoundScape thread in which Jim goes into explicit detail on how they're created before running your mouth. I'm glad Monkish was easily able to thwart your uneducated accusations.

By the way, I wouldn't want piano gloss on any speaker ever again; too many reflections and it attracts dust like crazy (or at least gives the illusion of it). Just because you must have piano black doesn't mean everyone else wants the same.

Seriously Nuance? Dude you need a time out.

Not really. Just sick of the same BS. I edited my post, though, even before I saw yours.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'd say Salk has some pretty small margins. Probably not 2.8%, but slim. The SoundScape is very expensive to produce. Those woofers + passive radiators cost a ton, the tweeters cost a fortune (if not Jim's first born), the cabinet is very complex and very heavy, the woodworking is second to none, the crossover is complex with expensive parts.

I don't know, and for that matter neither does anyone else, what his books look like. Maybe the margins are thinner for the Soundscapes, maybe not. He's picked up the Fried speaker business for better or worse so maybe that means greater economies of scale.

While I probably wouldn't spend 16K on the SS12 (there are offerings more suited for my goals in the same price range), it's priced at 16K because the cost to build is high.

And at 16K plus, there's competition.

Look at those AE woofers! I got a pair for $406 out of luck. Normally it would have cost me $527 for the pair. Now factor in the "custom" cost.

If you've followed some of the posts over at AVS's DIY section regarding AE (Acoustic Elegance), to put it kindly, they seem more than a bit disfunctional. While there may be great technical merit to their drivers, they've been beset with a number of problems and appear to be experiencing economic problems. A great number of people have ordered drivers (discount group buys in some cases) and have been waiting months if not years for their order. The owner does not seem to be the most savvy businessperson to me.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be J. Salk while ordering a pair of AE woofers! F that!

Neither do I and I would hope that he, like others, are actively sourcing other suppliers for a backup plan.

The RAAL 70-20XR is $1295/pr (DIRECT from the manufacturer!)

In what quantity? What are the volume discounts? What about discounts for hitting a yearly total?

I have no idea how much the passives cost, but probably not a small amount!

This will always be the bane of the small quantity manufacturer but again, it depends on the volume.

Jim once said 40% of the cost is parts. 40% of $16,000 is $6,400. A speaker that costs $6,400 to build would retail for $32,000!!

Show me the books!

$6,400 is only 20% the total cost of the 32K SS12!

It's 16K per speaker?

That's one great thing about DIY...I can build an SS12 for a lot less than 16K! That's the benefit of not having any employees to pay!

Show me the final result. Tell me how many total hours you've put into the project and what you value your time as. Do your measurements confirm you've done everything right?

Don't get me wrong, Monk. I like Salk. He seems like a standup guy, keeps on top of things, and I haven't read about anyone getting boned.

 

[monkish54]

Now, Now, Nuance!

While I disagree with ADTG's proposition that Salk makes bank off the SS12, I can easily understand his overall point, and I agree with it!

ADTG, wants a piano gloss version of the SS12 that looks like the 802D. He is upset that it would cost him upwards of twenty thousand dollars. From his prospective, he got the Revel Salon 2, and the 802D for 13 and 9K (something like that) respectively. He doesn't want to spend DOUBLE to get the Salon 802D (802D looks with Salon 2 caliber sound..or close to it..). I can understand this. I think the SS12 is MUCH too expensive (one could build it for..well, $6,400..) I just disagree that it's Jim's fault. If the SS12 were sold in stores, it would be ~32K and ADTG wouldn't even bother looking at it. The 16K price gives him a little hope until he realizes he can't get it marked down any.

 

[Nuance AH]

The owner does not seem to be the most savvy businessperson to me.

I agree with you on that one. He has a ton of technical knowledge, but he's going to run his business into the ground. I tried to purchase a subwoofer from him a while back and he simply refused to communicate back with me; he obviously lost a sale, and actually another later on (my friend, Justin).

Now, Now, Nuance!

While I disagree with ADTG's proposition that Salk makes bank off the SS12, I can easily understand his overall point, and I agree with it!

ADTG, wants a piano gloss version of the SS12 that looks like the 802D. He is upset that it would cost him upwards of twenty thousand dollars. From his prospective, he got the Revel Salon 2, and the 802D for 13 and 9K (something like that) respectively. He doesn't want to spend DOUBLE to get the Salon 802D (802D looks with Salon 2 caliber sound..or close to it..). I can understand this. I think the SS12 is MUCH too expensive (one could build it for..well, $6,400..) I just disagree that it's Jim's fault. If the SS12 were sold in stores, it would be ~32K and ADTG wouldn't even bother looking at it. The 16K price gives him a little hope until he realizes he can't get it marked down any.

I hear you. Like I said, he's like a broken record and it is tiresome. I'll take you up on your bet that you can build a SS12 for $6,400, though.

 

[panteragstk]

I've wanted to build a set of Statements since I first heard about them. Glad I built two subs first. Made me realize that this whole woodworking thing is more difficult than I remembered. Based on my experience building those subs I do know that I got more performance for the money than I could have purchased.

I know that the statements will be fantastic if I can actually build them.

I also know (hope?) that the Andrew Jones pioneer speakers will be great for the money when I finally get them.

There is value to be had no matter what brand you decide to purchase. I seriously doubt that I would be able to build a speaker as good or better than the SP-FS52 for $100. I bet a more experienced DIYer could, but I can't.

I think DIY is fantastic. I've built many things that I could have purchased for 3 times the price. I'm not one to hire anyone to do anything for me that I can't do myself. Car/house maintenance is a good example. My HT room is another good example.

I think the best point was made saying a true DIY speaker builder (I say true because I'm speaking of the guys that can design their speakers from the ground up, not follow instructions like me) can build the speakers for the room. That's something that you can't purchase without spending a mint. I don't even know if it's possible to get a speaker designed by a B&M or ID specifically for the space it will occupy. That's a pretty special thing.

I do think we can all agree that there are great speaker designs and builders no matter who they are. There are also terrible designs and builders as well. This is and will always be true of every profession or hobby.

 

[monkish54]

A great number of people have ordered drivers (discount group buys in some cases) and have been waiting months if not years for their order.

I don't need to keep up with the thread..I am one of those people. We've been waiting since December of 2011.

The wait does not change the caliber of the driver.

It's 16K per speaker?

16K per pair.

Show me the final result. Tell me how many total hours you've put into the project and what you value your time as. Do your measurements confirm you've done everything right?

Personally, if I were to build it, the time matters not. That's the fun of DIY! If I don't want to put time in, I'll buy commercial.

As for the actual SS12..I don't know what the measurements look like, Salk will only post the on-axis!

 

[monkish54]

I'll take you up on your bet that you can build a SS12 for $6,400, though.

I knew you would say that so I chose my words wisely!

I don't want a SS12..I want a sensitive Revel Salon 2.