DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

F

farrow099

Audioholic Intern
:eek:

I'm ashamed to be a member of Audioholics right now. This "article" reads like an outright attack on the DIY community AND car audio enthusiasts alike. The author comes across as a ranting, wealthy, elitist who is insulted that someone out there claimed his or her speaker design sounded better than something the author dropped a bunch of cash on.

Comparing the installation of a set of raw drivers (which WERE professionally designed) into a cabinet to building your own car or ipad from scratch is patently ridiculous. This is like comparing mixing your own drink to fermenting your own liquor. Not the same, not at all. I find it hard to believe the author is a professional journalist because this reads more like some bitter guy's blog post.

For the record, I do not even design my own loudspeakers.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
I agree 100%

But opinions are one thing. The speaker industry is probably unique in the high-tech consumer products field in that its followers—amateurs, admittedly—actually think they can design and build the product themselves. They often think they can do it better than the speaker company itself!

No one would ever try to build his own Mustang or his own iPad from scratch.

But give someone access to a good cabinet shop, a Parts Express catalog, and the latest edition of Vance Dickason’s Loudspeaker Cookbook, and look out! Vastly superior speaker systems are right around the corner.

In fact in the after-market car audio business, this is exactly how it’s done: amateur enthusiasts gather up the best information they can, misconceptions and all, and fearlessly plow ahead into the New World of DIY Speaker Excellence. Some of them actually manage to be pretty good too, against all odds.

But home audio is another matter. We take things, and ourselves, far more seriously in home audio—real audio—than mere ‘car stereo guys.’
So, having said all this, we pose the following questions to you:
What are some of your favorite commercial home speaker designs of both past and present and why?
How would you improve them?
What obvious shortcoming does it have that you just can’t understand why the manufacturer did that?
If you had a ‘clean sheet of paper,’ what would you design in the various size/price categories? Drivers? Bass alignment? Crossover? Features? Cabinet construction? Finish?

We look forward to hearing your ideas on loudspeaker design and sharing your DIY projects. After all, the hobby of building can be as fun and perhaps even more rewarding when listening on your own creations.
I think it's mildly ironic (and a bit humorous) that the article talks down to, and about, DIYers like they don't have a clue about anything, and then asks "so what would you build?"

This article is bipolar...

Maybe that's what my design will be... :D
 
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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I request that you indulge me and educate me. Take any of one your Atlantic Technology speakers and show me why it costs as much as it does. Further, prove to me that I cannot DIY a speaker or subwoofer of similar audio quality or fit and finish for the same cost (assume I have the skills and tools). I nominate the 10" 180 watt $600 sub.

Ball is in your court.
I do not want this part of my post to be misconstrued as a challenge to Mr. Feinstein nor an attack on Atlantic Technology or any of their products.

My request is based on the fact that Mr. Feinstein is the Director of Marketing & Product Development for Atlantic Technology. Consequently, he has access to their information, Business Cases, Product Requirements, Resource Demand Plans, Cost to Market, etc. His insider status enables him, using a specific product as the showcase, to create a complete response to my enquiry. Further, I chose a subwoofer since this is one of the simplest of speakers to design and build. Therefore, it reduces the variables to be considered and complexity of the ensuing discussion.

Any commercial product can be used for discussion as long as it does not require materials, techniques or tools that a DIYer cannot avail of.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I do not want this part of my post to be misconstrued as a challenge to Mr. Feinstein nor an attack on Atlantic Technology or any of their products.

My request is based on the fact that Mr. Feinstein is the Director of Marketing & Product Development for Atlantic Technology. Consequently, he has access to their information, Business Cases, Product Requirements, Resource Demand Plans, Cost to Market, etc. His insider status enables him, using a specific product as the showcase, to create a complete response to my enquiry. Further, I chose a subwoofer since this is one of the simplest of speakers to design and build. Therefore, it reduces the variables to be considered and complexity of the ensuing discussion.

Any commercial product can be used for discussion as long as it does not require materials, techniques or tools that a DIYer cannot avail of.
Steve Feinstein no longer works for Atlantic Tech and he is no longer employed in the audio industry other than writing for Audioholics. He's got a good insight into the business and I enjoy his contributions to the site.

I agree that anyone with the right knowledge and access to good parts, cabinet shop and measurement equipment can certainly design killer DIY speakers that perform as well or better than professional designs. That being said, I respect the viewpoints of this editorial too.

On the flip side I've seen many so called "professional designs" shrouded in pseudoscience to justify the usage of cheap parts, poorly designed crossovers and cabinets. I'd take a good DIY design over this type of nonsense ANYDAY! Hmm perhaps I should write a counter-article with a more pro DIY tone :)
 
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monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Steve Feinstein no longer works for Atlantic Tech and he is no longer employed in the audio industry
What does he do now (aside from his work with Audioholics)?
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
. For example, Dennis Murphy was hired by Jim Salk to design/develop crossovers for several Salk speakers. So here we have a DIY'er good enough to be hired in a pro capacity and develop speakers recognized as competitive in the speaker market. What better proof is there than a DIY'er being recruited directly into a pro position? That would not happen if a DIY'er could not compete with "pro's"!
If we now say he is a pro so doesn't count as an example of DIY ability, it is a circular (and pointless) argument!
Oh it counts, but my point was he shouldn't be called just a DIYer, as he is a DIYer turned pro. I also wouldn't call someone who gets paid to do work or owns his own company a DIYer (well, besides calling them a DIYer turned pro); designer or manufacturer would be more appropriate than a "DIYer."

You're right, though: this is a circular and pointless argument.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Steve Feinstein no longer works for Atlantic Tech and he is no longer employed in the audio industry other than writing for Audioholics. He's got a good insight into the business and I enjoy his contributions to the site.

I agree that anyone with the right knowledge and access to good parts, cabinet shop and measurement equipment can certainly design killer DIY speakers that perform as well or better than professional designs. That being said, I respect the viewpoints of this editorial too.

On the flip side I've seen many so called "professional designs" shrouded in pseudoscience to justify the usage of cheap parts, poorly designed crossovers and cabinets. I'd take a good DIY design over this type of nonsense ANYDAY! Hmm perhaps I should write a counter-article with a more pro DIY tone :)
I think Mr. Feinstein's gravest sin in this article was to imply - if not state outright - that any DIY design that turns out to be even moderately good, is purely down to chance. And, he did so while presenting absolutely no evidence to back that insinuation/claim. If his goal was to convince Audioholics readers that speaker design/manufacturing should be left to the "professionals", I think he failed miserably.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I think this is the guts of where this article gets it wrong.

But opinions are one thing. The speaker industry is probably unique in the high-tech consumer products field in that its followers—amateurs, admittedly—actually think they can design and build the product themselves. They often think they can do it better than the speaker company itself!

No one would ever try to build his own Mustang or his own iPad from scratch.

But give someone access to a good cabinet shop, a Parts Express catalog, and the latest edition of Vance Dickason’s Loudspeaker Cookbook, and look out! Vastly superior speaker systems are right around the corner.
I think the art of designing and building a speaker system for the home, is much more akin to the organ builders art, not the car maker. Cars are utilitarian devices.

Organs on the other hand are all custom and voiced to the space.

Let me enter in to the discussion in a little more depth.

For instance take these surround speakers. This one is away from the wall.



This one is in wall.



The crossovers in the two speakers are different to account for the differences in position relative to the wall. Also the lobing pattern of the speakers has been optimized for their position, so that the speakers are actually beaming down over the listening area, with as wide a dispersion as possible. Not a winning commercial proposition.

Speakers and room architecture are an integrated package really no different from the organ builders art.



Now lets take a bigger challenge in which I don't think any off the shelf speakers would work well.

For architectural reasons this was the best solution for this very nice space.



Not very promising. But the DIY builder/designer can optimize a speaker for a difficult location and application.

The speakers are ported, but I did not want them so sound like it.

So the speakers have a F3 of 55 Hz. That would not look promising on a spec sheet would it?

However my alignment is unusual with first order roll off to 30 Hz, so the speakers are only 6 db down at 30 Hz and then roll off fourth order. The speakers are over damped slightly.

Now the subs and crossover are designed to match. So what is required are subs that will provide half the output at 30 Hz and then roll off rapidly above 60 Hz. So the subs are compact isobarik coupled cavity design, with an F3 of 27 Hz rolling off second order. In this design, even though ported the designer has great control over Qtc, and the Qtc of these subs is 0.5. So they only cover an octave and a bit. That is all I need. With the natural roll of of the band pass subs and the active filter they roll off fifth order above 60 Hz.

The point is that as said those subs have very limited application.

In addition I can use a long discontinued driver, the superb KEF B139 from about a half century ago. No driver of that size since then has given such excellent bass performance. I chose a driver that the owners of Dynaudio very kindly made available to me as a personal favor. It covers from 400 Hz to 4 kHz, and crosses to a mylar ribbon at 4 kHz. Music and speech are excellent.

The design also allowed me to give a nod to a mentor Raymond Cooke, founder of KEF, as the design suggests an appearance of the KEF line of long ago.

This is a large space, with a lot of open areas, but this system fills it adequately with a very nice bass that never booms. It is excellent for speech and music.

I use it a lot in the long cold winters, and I really like spinning vinyl, as I used to do that by the fire so long ago in my youth back in England.

The point of all this is that once the DIYer has sufficiently mastered the art, he has options, that the purchaser of off the shelf speakers can not even dream about.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Steve Feinstein no longer works for Atlantic Tech and he is no longer employed in the audio industry
Given his 'rant' (I certainly don't consider worthy of editorial content status) I'm not surprised he's no longer employed in the audio industry.

Not sure how this piece made it through the vetting process.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
How to alienate the readers/members of AH.com and AH forum by Steve Feinstein...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Always safer to be neutral & politically correct. :D

I have 9 B&M "Pro" & 3 ID speakers (Linkwitz, Philharmonic, Funk) in my house.

Both BM & ID/DIY can be great and can be great value.

Both BM & ID/DIY can cost more than some of us are willing to pay.

Saying that ID/DIY always gives us more bang-for-the-buck isn't true.

I paid $14K for a brand new Salon2 from an authorized Revel dealer. Many people have payed $15-18K for brand new delivered piano gloss Salon2.

If I wanted a Salk SS12 with piano gloss mahogany, it would cost me $19K.

Same could be said of some other ID companies and BM companies. It's a 2 way street. There are 2 sides to every story.

This article is definitely not "balanced" or PC. :D It's only one take. Only one side to a story. One opinion. The author's goal isn't to make everyone happy or love him or be balanced. If it were, this thread would probably be dead & quiet already. We would all agreed and moved on and never looked back from the very first day the thread was posted. Boring and agreeable. :D

No, this article was meant to stir the pot and cause 2-sided debate and discussion. :D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
\
No, this article was meant to stir the pot and cause 2-sided debate and discussion. :D
There is only debate if the point is debatable. It isn't. Stir the pot yes. Actual merit? I don't personally believe so and I think the overwhelming evidence out there bares this out.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
There is only debate if the point is debatable. It isn't. Stir the pot yes. Actual merit? I don't personally believe so and I think the overwhelming evidence out there bares this out.
Your feathers have clearly been ruffled. :) With that said, I like Gene's idea about writing a counter article and hope he acts on it.

You and ADTG should pair up and have a shootout with your Statements vs. his Revel Salon2's. It'll have to be a blind, level matched comparo, of which Gene could probably oversee; select AH members could be invited to participate. I'd love to see the results of that GTG.

While I don't agree with some of Steve Feinstein's statements from his article, it is his opinion, and last time I checked it was still a free country, so... If you want to prove him wrong it's best do it with facts and objective proof (which shouldn't be difficult based on what you guys are saying). Right? Because lets be honest, anyone can claim their DIY designs are the shiznit, but their own claims and a couple friends who agree are hardly substantial enough to convince many. I'm not speaking of your speakers specifically when I say that, jinjuku, just so we're clear; it's a general statement.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I'm listening to my Orion + SX1010N right now. I have no doubt they sound every bit as awesome as the Salon2, B&W 802D2, & KEF 201/2 (2.1 mode).
The Orion was actually the basis of my question to TLS Guy about the speakers in your sig. The Orions are sort of a DIY design, one that breaks so many commercial product rules. It also has a spectral balance very similar to the Salon 2s.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
There is only debate if the point is debatable. It isn't. Stir the pot yes. Actual merit? I don't personally believe so and I think the overwhelming evidence out there bares this out.
In a debate class EVERY point is debatable. :D

Not everyone thinks ID/DIY is the best.

Most people not on AH seem to favor B&M over ID. Like Revel, JBL, B&W, KEF, TAD, Focal, Dynaudio, RBH, Wilson, Sonus, Vienna, Martin Logan, Magnepan, DefTech, GoldenEar, Paradigm, PSB, NHT, etc.

This is a hobby filled with subjective personal preferences. It's not exactly black & white evidence-based science & engineering.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I think the art of designing and building a speaker system for the home, is much more akin to the organ builders art, not the car maker. Cars are utilitarian devices.

Organs on the other hand are all custom and voiced to the space.
Cars are utilitarian devices? :) Actually, there is no difference between what goes on in cars and DIY speakers. My other avocation is cars, and I know people who have built cars from the ground up, or have them built by custom coach shops, that are just as custom, or perhaps more so, than 99% of DIY speakers. None of you are building your own drivers. I'm not talking about hot rods based on '32 Fords, I'm talking about full custom designs and complete fabrication. And there's is a huge, wide range of custom automotive options available, just like with speakers. For example, some people like the Shelby Cobra look (not me, but some people), and may even use commercially body panels, but the chassis, the suspension, the brake system, the steering system, the engine and the drivetrain, are all custom designs. The only difference IMO between DIY cars and DIY speakers is scope and skill sets.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Not everyone thinks ID/DIY is the best.
This is true. I wouldn't even consider trying DIY at the performance level I expect. Well, okay, I would for a subwoofer, but that's different. For full-range speakers there's so much to be said for knowledge and experience, and while I suppose I could try to acquire that knowledge and experience quickly, I'd rather pay more and find the products from the people who have devoted most of their professional careers to speaker design. Yes, I will be the first to admit that there's probably a 10x cost factor difference between what can be done with DIY and what you're likely to pay for a commercial product, but CAN is the key word. Realization is more difficult than promise. I just wouldn't bother. Anyway, my next temptation is electrostatics.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Cars are utilitarian devices? :) Actually, there is no difference between what goes on in cars and DIY speakers. My other avocation is cars, and I know people who have built cars from the ground up, or have them built by custom coach shops, that are just as custom, or perhaps more so, than 99% of DIY speakers. None of you are building your own drivers. I'm not talking about hot rods based on '32 Fords, I'm talking about full custom designs and complete fabrication. And there's is a huge, wide range of custom automotive options available, just like with speakers. For example, some people like the Shelby Cobra look (not me, but some people), and may even use commercially body panels, but the chassis, the suspension, the brake system, the steering system, the engine and the drivetrain, are all custom designs. The only difference IMO between DIY cars and DIY speakers is scope and skill sets.
Got that right


Speaking of cars, I happen to collect and restore vintage muscle cars, never liked the Cobra but I did own a 64 markII ( 2nd generation design) with a 289. Sold it 8 years ago. What a mistake. Anyway


Lets not forget "Money" a person can pretty much do anything they want with money ( materials, engineering, build etc..) but still in speakers, it's the sound, not how pretty it is, or how much this tweeter cost. In the end it's the sound.

Speaking of DIY, I've seen some rather nice DIY amps, custom cars, custom homes, handmade boats, furniture so why not quality from a DIY speaker. I would bet, every speaker / audio company out there today started out with the original owner making a audio amp / speaker in his home and from that their dreams grew to something larger. For example ; Gilbert Briggs ( Wharfedale) 1932 built his very first loudspeaker in the cellar of his home. James Bullough Lansing was DIY'er making making radios before he started building speakers. Hell, Henry Ford , Edison, Leo Fender were DIY persons. If it wasn't for DIY people we would still be living in trees, walking around and banging sticks on hollow logs for music
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Your feathers have clearly been ruffled. :)
I think this article ruffled a lot of feathers!
His method is far worse than his message.
Even though I generally disagree with his premise, I could produce a far more mature argument in support of B&M speakers.
His depiction of DIY'ers as "willy-nilly" trial and error without scientific/engineering approach or research is one we all know to be false.
I am sure some such hack DIY'ers do exist, but they should not be the foundation for argument against DIY ability.
 
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