DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[gene]

Its very easy to tell apart the good ID that care about value, performance and quality versus those that only care about using the ID model to suck every last penny out of a product for profit.

I've also noticed many B&M brands, Paradigm and a few others that are becoming more and more inline with what ID offers. Paradigm Monitor line comes to mind. Nice basic finishes, good quality drivers and great sounding all for similar prices of IDs offerings.

Yep also look at the new Boston Acoustics line. I have a pair of their $800/pr towers in for review and the quality of parts and construction rivals many of the ID counterparts costing more. It's also noteworthy to mention many of today's B&M companies sell direct too. So in a sense, B&M are becoming ID companies too!

 

[Nestor]

I don't agree. Very talented DIY and cabinet makers out there that can build cabinets that rival the best of the commercial offerings out there for far, far, less money. Check this one out:

DIY...

The AVS forum thread for that build is very engrossing. A true testament to craftsmanship, creativity, and patience.

 

[JerryLove]

• They have no way to try out their ideas.
  
• They have no way to measure their proposed designs or modifications. (Except for those very few hobbyists who bought computer-based measuring software a year or two ago and a moderately-priced microphone, then amusingly manage to convince themselves that they are somehow the very-near equivalent of a real speaker engineer with 20+ years’ experience and dozens of successful products of all kinds under their belt)
  
• They have absolutely no understanding of the relationship between material cost and retail price.
  
• They have close to zero understanding about the practicalities or processes of manufacturing on a large scale, packaging and shipping.

• Isn't that exactly what happens when you build a speaker? You try out your ideas? Running active gives even more options for experimentation before committing to a passive design.
  
• Are there really builders out there that don't have free measurement software and a mic? Also (since this is about preference): they have ears. I mean: I've got that gear.
  
• There isn't a direct relationship because there's far more involved than material costs in building something.
  
• So they can go watch "how is it made". What does the packaging process have to do with whether someone can build a better speaker? The question asked was not whether they could run a better multi-national speaker manufacturer.

And BTW: Lots of people modify their cars, and every kid I know modifies his cereal. We don't build those from scratch? Well, DIY-ers don't tend to make their own wire, wooden planks, connectors, or indeed drivers.

 

[TLS Guy]

The DIY builder has lots of advantages, especially if he has a tolerant wife.

I can build a speaker as big as I need and not have to try and bend the laws of physics.

I can build speakers that are totally impractical from a commercial point of view.

I have as much time as I want to improve and develop it. That is a big issue. I think many designs are rushed to market too soon. The development time for the Quad ESL 64 was 16 years! John Wright of TDL worked on all of his designs for a long time before bringing them to market. I don't think he ever brought a bad speaker to market. That is why you just about never see one of his speakers on the used market, but I bet just about all his large production is still giving pleasure to their owners.

He also knew well that building one set of speakers is one thing. Turning it into a marketable product is quite another.

I have not heard a commercial design that can deliver the sound that I have the good fortune to listen to daily. I don't need a wall of speakers to suit what I'm listening to at the moment either.

So as Swerd has pointed out the learning curve for the DIYer is steep, but very worthwhile. You just have to get started.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have not heard a commercial design that can deliver the sound that I have the good fortune to listen to daily. I don't need a wall of speakers to suit what I'm listening to at the moment either.

Just out of curiosity, have you heard any of the speakers in ADTG's signature?

 

[TLS Guy]

Just out of curiosity, have you heard any of the speakers in ADTG's signature?

I know the B & W and the ATC SCM 7 very well. I have not heard the others. I tried to audition the Revels, but the dealer was such a Wally he could not get audio to them.

 

[Nuance AH]

So as Swerd has pointed out the learning curve for the DIYer is steep, but very worthwhile. You just have to get started.

Indeed.

I like your room, TLS Guy. Any plans to move to a larger TV or projection screen?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know the B & W and the ATC SCM 7 very well. I have not heard the others. I tried to audition the Revels, but the dealer was such a Wally he could not get audio to them.

The Bowers & Wilkins 802D2, Kent Engineering Foundry 201/2, & Acoustic Transducer Company SCM-7 are 3 awesome speakers made in England.

 

[agarwalro]

Got a beef against DIY?

The article obfuscates the differences between, a knowledgeable enthusiast (non DIYer), elite product consumer (audiophile), speaker kit assembler (DIYer) and "from scratch design and build" DIYer. All these categorizations are lumped into the stereotypical "audio enthusiast". The term then used, mostly in condescension, via sweeping generalities like, (emphasis mine)

• they praise or criticize the speaker’s sound according to their own purely-arbitrary yardstick of acceptability
• Audio enthusiasts hold fast onto their opinions about speakers regardless of the degree of technical/design/engineering knowledge they have about acoustics and electronics.
• They have close to zero understanding about the practicalities or processes of manufacturing on a large scale, packaging and shipping.
• But give someone access to a good cabinet shop, a Parts Express catalog, and the latest edition of Vance Dickason’s Loudspeaker Cookbook, and look out! Vastly superior speaker systems are right around the corner.
• amateur enthusiasts gather up the best information they can, misconceptions and all, and fearlessly plow ahead into the New World of DIY Speaker Excellence. Some of them actually manage to be pretty good too, against all odds.

Further, the article erroneously presumes that these marginally educated, bumbling hobbyists called DIY-ers, are using trial and error to serendipitously arrive at a good sounding design.

They can see first-hand how the drivers make their sound. Amplifiers are a bit more mysterious in that you can’t actually see the output transistors doing their thing. You can’t visualize the circuitry performing its tasks. But you can see a woofer moving in and out

I can think of at least one highly educated, pro turned DIY-er,Dr. Don Keele. I dare say, his DIY design (now available as Parts Express CBT-36 kit) has more physics than most commercially designed speakers.

After snide commentary is over, with great aplomb we are presented with this consolation,

After all, the hobby of building can be as fun and perhaps even more rewarding when listening on your own creations.

So, to your question Mr. Feinstein,

If you had a ‘clean sheet of paper,’ what would you design in the various size/price categories? Drivers? Bass alignment? Crossover? Features? Cabinet construction? Finish?

I request that you indulge me and educate me. Take any of one your Atlantic Technology speakers and show me why it costs as much as it does. Further, prove to me that I cannot DIY a speaker or subwoofer of similar audio quality or fit and finish for the same cost (assume I have the skills and tools). I nominate the 10" 180 watt $600 sub.


Ball is in your court.

 

[TLS Guy]

Indeed.

I like your room, TLS Guy. Any plans to move to a larger TV or projection screen?

I won't deny I don't have the itch.

I did allow for a motorized screen. There is a power outlet behind the top beam. That beam was put their as much as anything to mount a screen.

It would need to be acoustically transparent as the center would be behind it. It would have to be perfectly transparent.

It would be easy to get power and HDMI at a projector location, as that roof space is easily accessible from the outside balcony. I put doors to that space under the eaves.

The screen I have I really like. It is a 2006 screen! It was the best screen of its day. Its colors are not harsh and very natural.

I have great reluctance to throw out something that is giving good service. So I would add a projector and not change the current screen unless it failed most likely.

When I first put this together, I had no idea how much I would use the screen.

As time goes by I use it more and more. I'm a huge fan of opera on AV. When I put it together there was no Blue Ray and very little opera on AV that was any good. Now it has exploded. Now we have lots of music on BD.

I don't deny there is a disconnect between the huge sound stage and the picture. However much of the time for opera and orchestral music the images are close ups most of the time, so I'm not sure how much a bigger screen would solve this issue.

For movies it would require a screen all the way round the room. This rig does a really good job of 360 degree imaging including distance perspective.

We were watching a movie one night and I said to my wife there is a thunderstorm coming up. Well it turned out the movie had a thunderstorm moving in from the right. It sounded just like a thunder in the far distance from the west!

I will see how long this itch worsens before it has to be scratched out.

 

[jinjuku]

Take any of one your Atlantic Technology speakers and show me why it costs as much as it does. Further, prove to me that I cannot DIY a speaker or subwoofer of similar audio quality or fit and finish for the same cost (assume I have the skills and tools). I nominate the 10" 180 watt $600 sub.


Ball is in your court.

I have to agree with you on Atlantic Technology. I've had ears on a $9K 7.1 setup that you couldn't have given to me.

I've better with my ZDT3.5's and my Statements will smoke them. Period. All driven with 'Pro-Audio' amplification. No need for $11K monoblocks.

 

[jinjuku]

I do have a question for you Gene:

What DIY designs have you heard, done critical listening to, and measured? Do you have anything you could write up an article on and post?

I think one design that I would submit is a two way design based on the ZA1408 and SB Acoustics SB29 tweet. About $300 in parts.

Products like Sound Easy and the Dayton Omni Mic (I just picked one up) make the point of entry ever easier into DIY.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

speaker kit assembler (DIYer) and "from scratch design and build" DIYer. All these categorizations are lumped into the stereotypical "audio enthusiast". The term then used, mostly in condescension, via sweeping generalities like, (emphasis mine)

Wholeheartedly agree with your post! I'd like to add one more distinct type of DIYer:
a) ready kit assembler
b) builder from raw materials, but based on existing design/plans
c) designs and builds from scratch

 

[gene]

I do have a question for you Gene:

What DIY designs have you heard, done critical listening to, and measured? Do you have anything you could write up an article on and post?

I think one design that I would submit is a two way design based on the ZA1408 and SB Acoustics SB29 tweet. About $300 in parts.

Products like Sound Easy and the Dayton Omni Mic (I just picked one up) make the point of entry ever easier into DIY.

The only pair I've heard were the ones built by one of our reviewers:
Building Do It Yourself Loudspeakers — Reviews and News from Audioholics

It's been so long since I heard them that I can't really comment on their sound.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm listening to my Orion + SX1010N right now. I have no doubt they sound every bit as awesome as the Salon2, B&W 802D2, & KEF 201/2 (2.1 mode).

But B&M have amazing engineers and designers just like the DIY/ ID world.

So it's not "who is better". The best B&M & the best DIY/ID are EQUALLY great.

 

[jinjuku]

The only pair I've heard were the ones built by one of our reviewers:
Building Do It Yourself Loudspeakers — Reviews and News from Audioholics

It's been so long since I heard them that I can't really comment on their sound.

Are you interested in a DIY build if I can arrange it?

 

[jinjuku]

So it's not "who is better". The best B&M & the best DIY/ID are EQUALLY great.

But sometimes not equally expensive. I do this because I enjoy the process in addition to the years long end result.

I had a member at AVSForum with a pair of $15K (MSRP) Aerial Acoustics come over and demo my Statements.

To say he was stunned was an understatement. My speakers have a total of $1170 into them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But sometimes not equally expensive. I do this because I enjoy the process in addition to the years long end result.

I had a member at AVSForum with a pair of $15K (MSRP) Aerial Acoustics come over and demo my Statements.

To say he was stunned was an understatement. My speakers have a total of $1170 into them.

Yes, diminishing returns. But it's not just B&M vs ID. It's ID vs ID and B&M vs B&M too.

Just like some feel the $2K Phil2 (Chinese cab) sound just as great as the $18K Soundscape 12 in the midrange & treble.

 

[KEW]

The article obfuscates the differences between, a knowledgeable enthusiast (non DIYer), elite product consumer (audiophile), speaker kit assembler (DIYer) and "from scratch design and build" DIYer. All these categorizations are lumped into the stereotypical "audio enthusiast". The term then used, mostly in condescension, via sweeping generalities like, (emphasis mine)

Further, the article erroneously presumes that these marginally educated, bumbling hobbyists called DIY-ers, are using trial and error to serendipitously arrive at a good sounding design.

I can think of at least one highly educated, pro turned DIY-er,Dr. Don Keele. I dare say, his DIY design (now available as Parts Express CBT-36 kit) has more physics than most commercially designed speakers.

After snide commentary is over, with great aplomb we are presented with this consolation,

So, to your question Mr. Feinstein,

I request that you indulge me and educate me. Take any of one your Atlantic Technology speakers and show me why it costs as much as it does. Further, prove to me that I cannot DIY a speaker or subwoofer of similar audio quality or fit and finish for the same cost (assume I have the skills and tools). I nominate the 10" 180 watt $600 sub.

Ball is in your court.

Thanks for your post, Agarwalro.

I was planning to make a similar one when I got back home, and you've saved me a lot of keystrokes!
I do have a few additional points to make which may be more relevant to the forum discussion than the article:

Commercial Resources & Experience - The argument has been made that the resources/experience available through a large company are required to develop high SQ. I guess it has yet to be established whether some of the top names of DIY heritage, such as Linkwitz, Bagby, Murphy, Kittinger, etc. are producing the equal of commercial speaker companies, but I think it is apparent that none of these people have access to the purported benefits of a large commercial company (even though they may be considered pro).

Transition from DIY amateur to Pro -
The fact of the matter is, any one showing an advanced understanding/knack/capability for the task, once publicly established, will get offers to be paid for their expertise. For example, Dennis Murphy was hired by Jim Salk to design/develop crossovers for several Salk speakers. So here we have a DIY'er good enough to be hired in a pro capacity and develop speakers recognized as competitive in the speaker market. What better proof is there than a DIY'er being recruited directly into a pro position? That would not happen if a DIY'er could not compete with "pro's"!
If we now say he is a pro so doesn't count as an example of DIY ability, it is a circular (and pointless) argument!

Cosmetics - Personally, I think this is a moot point. A DIY loudspeaker designer need only be concerned that the cabinet is structurally/acoustically sound. If a DIY'er can produce sound equal or better than commercial offerings, and he does it using unfinished mdf, why would we discount that? He is a DIY'er, he is not building it for you, and if his quest for SQ is so pure as to totally ignore aesthetics, so be it.
On the topic of individual vs commercial ability, I am involved in a couple of amateur woodworking groups. These non-professional woodworkers with their basement shop (or shed) turn out quality work which far exceeds standard furniture grade, and is often the equal or better of professional artisans. I know an individual amateur is capable of aesthetics well beyond commercial speakers.

 

[Xebulon]

Ascetics don't really matter

... behind the screen wall, ascetics don't really matter at all...

I agree with you about the looks. I just had to say that you made me laugh out loud with your use (I guess involuntary) of the term "ascetics" in this context!

It's really a delightful twist of the tongue (keyboard...) that sort of makes a nice kind of sense!