power conditioners

[moves]

I guess the answer it to surge protect your breaker panel.

 

[agarwalro]

Do you think power conditioners are worth buying? If so, what kind?

You know there is a lot of snake oil here, maybe, even more than the audiophile babble on $1000/ft silver speaker interconnect. I suggest some balance. If your residence has frequent power outages, poor quality supply or each piece of gear costs more than a mid sized sedan, a thorough solution is warranted. If not, there is no added value in adding to the overhead. Perhaps, peace of mind, but, tangible value add is questionable.

Come to think of it... The dealer told me that my power bar will protect against when the power clicks off randomly during blackouts???? Does this sound correct or am I f'ucking it up?

We had this in India. Sometimes it would randomly flick on-off mid blackout. When the power came back on after a blackout, it would go through these on-off-on-off pulses two or three times in first ten minutes. I tell you what, we would turn off the main circuit breaker and sit tight till the supply stabilized. I suspect the dealer was alluding to this. For this situation the power bar will only help if it has a built in delayed start.

People need to live in a lightning capital to really experience blown up equipment even with commercial surge protection at the service main. But there is nothing like watching $10,000 - $20,000 worth of HT and stereo equipment go up in a ball of chip dust. and that smile of burnt plastic to understand the power of mother nature.

Until you see it hit at CRT monitor . For those situations one can shield the house with a Faraday Cage .

 

[Rickster71]

..... yep those little surge protectors are going to really stand up to that. stand back and watch mother nature work her magic on plastic

That's part of the misunderstanding, they're 'surge protectors' ...not lightening protectors.
Unfortunately there are just so many variables and no single solution. It just may come to dealing with the hassles of the insurance company.

 

[JerryLove]

yep what got my equipment as a result of a hit to a pine tree in the neighbors yard. Just think, "An average bolt of negative lightning carries an electric current of 30,000 amperes (30 kA), and transfers 15 coulombs of electric charge and 500 megajoules of energy" yep those little surge protectors are going to really stand up to that. stand back and watch mother nature work her magic on plastic

Did someone claim that a surge suppressor would protect you from lightning coming in through the window and striking your equipment?

Though you would be surprised how little hardware it takes to redirect a direct lightning strike (see: lightning rod or the picture of the Faraday cage).

But when lightning strikes a tree and puts an induced charge on a power-line 5 miles away that then gets split between 2,000 homes after the transformers on the lines attempt to mitigate it; yea: a varesistor might protect your equipment from your portion of that.

 

[cpp]

Did someone claim that a surge suppressor would protect you from lightning coming in through the window and striking your equipment?

.

no Jerry, before I retired I was a Engineering manager for AT&T and Lucent technologies. I know power. The point I was making is no mater what you have to protect your home, mother nature will override all measures of protection.

 

[JerryLove]

no Jerry, before I retired I was a Engineering manager for AT&T and Lucent technologies. I know power. The point I was making is no mater what you have to protect your home, mother nature will override all measures of protection.

"can" not "will".

When I was working at EDS in the mid 90s, we had an extended power outage in the west. One of our locations' generators went out and then they exhausted the UPS system (which fails into a bypass condition). When they restarted the generator, the surge it caused fried much of their electronics (since the suppression functions were lost at the same time as the UPS).

Had they not had the Leibert unit in bypass, the surge would not have damaged the equipment.

Surges and spikes are dealt with all the time: whether we are discussing the active adjustment done at the power company itself, the passive leveling of the grid, or specific steps at the house or device level (indeed: most power supplies serve to condition power).

Nothing stops everything.
Many things stop many things.

Lightning rods (for example) may not be 100% at preventing damaging strikes, but they do work.

 

[moves]

You know there is a lot of snake oil here, maybe, even more than the audiophile babble on $1000/ft silver speaker interconnect. I suggest some balance. If your residence has frequent power outages, poor quality supply or each piece of gear costs more than a mid sized sedan, a thorough solution is warranted. If not, there is no added value in adding to the overhead. Perhaps, peace of mind, but, tangible value add is questionable.
We had this in India. Sometimes it would randomly flick on-off mid blackout. When the power came back on after a blackout, it would go through these on-off-on-off pulses two or three times in first ten minutes. I tell you what, we would turn off the main circuit breaker and sit tight till the supply stabilized. I suspect the dealer was alluding to this. For this situation the power bar will only help if it has a built in delayed start.
Until you see it hit at CRT monitor . For those situations one can shield the house with a Faraday Cage .

I've got this one.... M8-AV-PRO | Floor Models | Products | Panamax.com it says that it disconnect AC power to connected devices. I couldn't find anything on the situation described by you though - the power flicking on and off.

Another question: If the equipment if in the OFF position but still plugged into the wall... could it get zapped?

 

[TLS Guy]

I've got this one.... M8-AV-PRO | Floor Models | Products | Panamax.com it says that it disconnect AC power to connected devices. I couldn't find anything on the situation described by you though - the power flicking on and off.

Another question: If the equipment if in the OFF position but still plugged into the wall... could it get zapped?

If its plugged in, it can get zapped.

 

[westom]

it says that it disconnect AC power to connected devices. ... Another question: If the equipment if in the OFF position but still plugged into the wall... could it get zapped?

Will a millimeter gap in a switch stop what three miles of sky could not? How does the Panamax do it? Simple. It claims to protect from an anomaly that is typically not destructive.

What happens when AC voltages exceed 144 volts (from the Panamax datasheet). Incandescent bulb glow 1.9 times brighter. How often do your lights increase intensity that much? So what is the Panamax protecting from?

Any solution that works by blocking or disconnecting a potentially destructive current is bogus. Protection is always about connecting that current on a path that is not destructive. Even that 'Telsa coil' lightning demonstrates the concept - a path that causes no damage.

 

[JerryLove]

Will a millimeter gap in a switch stop what three miles of sky could not?

By having an alternate path of lesser resistance.

You know... like how a lightning rod offers a path of lesser resistance than a millimeter of roofing shingle.

The pic with the Tsela coil is great isn't it? A meter of air is unable to stop that lightning, but then it hits the Faraday cage. How thick does that wire look to you? A few millimeters?

Seriously: How have you not been banned for trolling?

 

[TLS Guy]

By having an alternate path of lesser resistance.

You know... like how a lightning rod offers a path of lesser resistance than a millimeter of roofing shingle.

That is not how a lightning rod works.

The physical principle of a lightning rod is brush discharge.

The rod draws electrons from the ground. Enough to make an electric wind like the ionic tweeter, which has no moving parts.

The brush discharge, discharges the cloud and prevents the lightening strike from occurring. If the lightening does strike the lightening rod, it is pretty much useless and burns up.

So that is why you put lightening rods on the highest building in the vicinity and it protects the buildings around it also.

 

[cpp]

Just get a kite some string and a key, that should work and it would eliminate any further discussion.

 

[JerryLove]

If the lightening does strike the lightening rod, it is pretty much useless and burns up.

So this isn't the lightning rod on top of the Empire State building getting struck three times?

Empire State Building: Lightning Strikes Thrice! - YouTube

And when I said "like how a lightning rod offers a path of lesser resistance than a millimeter of roofing shingle."

That was wrong because it's different from HowStuffWorks "Lightning Rod" where they say: "lightning rods provide a low-resistance path to ground that can be used to conduct the enormous electrical currents when lightning strikes occur. "

This isn't 15 strikes on the CN tower either?
C.N. Tower Lightning Rod Project (CN Tower hit by lightning 15+ times- IN Slow Motion) - YouTube

This isn't a car taking a direct strike and continuing down the road? Lightning Strikes Car - YouTube

Nor is this a minivan (in slow-motion you can see the drive apply breaks and the breaklights (which are still working normally) trigger): Minivan Struck By Lightning - YouTube

A few mm of that minivan's shell did not save that driver's life?

Are you sure lightning doesn't strike lightning rods, and that rods are consumed and useless if hit? That picture with the Faraday cage is pretty neat, isn't it?

 

[TLS Guy]

So this isn't the lightning rod on top of the Empire State building getting struck three times?

Empire State Building: Lightning Strikes Thrice! - YouTube

And when I said "like how a lightning rod offers a path of lesser resistance than a millimeter of roofing shingle."

That was wrong because it's different from HowStuffWorks "Lightning Rod" where they say: "lightning rods provide a low-resistance path to ground that can be used to conduct the enormous electrical currents when lightning strikes occur. "

This isn't 15 strikes on the CN tower either?
C.N. Tower Lightning Rod Project (CN Tower hit by lightning 15+ times- IN Slow Motion) - YouTube

This isn't a car taking a direct strike and continuing down the road? Lightning Strikes Car - YouTube

Nor is this a minivan (in slow-motion you can see the drive apply breaks and the breaklights (which are still working normally) trigger): Minivan Struck By Lightning - YouTube

A few mm of that minivan's shell did not save that driver's life?

Are you sure lightning doesn't strike lightning rods, and that rods are consumed and useless if hit? That picture with the Faraday cage is pretty neat, isn't it?

Yes, lightning rods do occasionally get struck, as the brush discharge will not always discharge the cloud. However they do prevent most strikes and lessen the ones that occur.

Misunderstanding of how lightening rods truly work and their purpose is one of the most misunderstood concepts in physics even by a lot of so called experts. I have told you the correct facts.

 

[JerryLove]

I have told you the correct facts.

Your claim is at odds with the link your provided. From your link:

"The basic premise behind the use of air terminals and lightning rods is to provide a more favorable path for lightning to travel other than a structure or key piece of equipment. "

"The lightning rod goes into a corona (point discharge) producing a stream of positively charged ions approximately 10 to 15 meters above the tip. During the “blind” travel of the stepped leader, which is negatively charged, a path of least resistance is sought and provided by the corona of the lightning rod. After the connection of the stepped leader to the rod, a return stroke is created followed by another dart leader and a subsequent return stroke.

This series of strokes can often occur up to seven times during one strike, in rare cases up to twenty five. In any case, the rod has completed its task but there is one major flaw in its mechanics:"

Your cite argues that the fact that lightning rods "attract" lightning is one of the problems with lightning rods.

"In the ancient days of the vacuum tube, lightning rods performed their task excellently, but with the delicate nature of modern microprocessor based equipment now being installed in the immediate vicinity of tower sites, switching stations, communications buildings, schools and hospitals, lightning rod protection is obsolete. This equipment won’t stand up to the transient voltages and currents created when the rod gets struck, even if the structure is properly grounded.

The solution is simple; PREVENT the structure from being struck at all!"

They are suggesting that, since Lightning rods *don't* prevent strikes, you should *instead* use ALS- Dissipation air terminals, which will act to discourage lightning strikes (as you assert lightning rods do)

Wiki: "If lightning targets the building it will preferentially strike the rod and be conducted to ground through the wire, instead of passing through the building, where it could start a fire or cause electrocution."

in fact: "attractor" was once part of its name "the pointed lightning rod conductor, also called a "lightning attractor" or "Franklin rod," was invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1749"

I respect you greatly, but you are dead wrong here. I'm not picking sources. Everything I randomly look at supports the same position that the videos of them in operation suggest. The purpose is not to ward off lightning, but to proved a path of less resistance to protect a building from damage from a strike.

That they are capable of it is amply demonstrated by the Faraday cage.

 

[Whitey80]

 

[TLS Guy]

Your claim is at odds with the link your provided. From your link:





Your cite argues that the fact that lightning rods "attract" lightning is one of the problems with lightning rods.



They are suggesting that, since Lightning rods *don't* prevent strikes, you should *instead* use ALS- Dissipation air terminals, which will act to discourage lightning strikes (as you assert lightning rods do)

Wiki: "If lightning targets the building it will preferentially strike the rod and be conducted to ground through the wire, instead of passing through the building, where it could start a fire or cause electrocution."

in fact: "attractor" was once part of its name "the pointed lightning rod conductor, also called a "lightning attractor" or "Franklin rod," was invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1749"

I respect you greatly, but you are dead wrong here. I'm not picking sources. Everything I randomly look at supports the same position that the videos of them in operation suggest. The purpose is not to ward off lightning, but to proved a path of less resistance to protect a building from damage from a strike.

That they are capable of it is amply demonstrated by the Faraday cage.

As I pointed out and the link I sent, the lightening rod does carry electrons up from the ground and help discharge static in clouds. Do they stop all strikes, no. But they almost certainly reduce their intensity. A copper strip of a lightening rod burns out quickly in a strike, as I personally observed.

As has been pointed out lightening rods are not the perfect solution to lightening strikes by a long shot.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

This thread was going somewhere and then it turned into a heated debate about lightning rods. Damn, back to the search bar for more queries abut power conditioners