Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
If you can't trust the manufacturer of the product being sold then... oh yea, you can't.

I've never heard of this most trusted name (which is odd, because I deal with protecting server and telcom hardware as part of my job). As far as I can tell, UL has no such program for surge suppressors (notice their lack of link).

Also: most UL grades are numbers, not letters (UL | UL Performance Verification Services)
I use them and have used them for high end pro grade systems, of all performance types, including IT and Telcom systems.
When I first was introduced to them back in the 90's (when they started) I was skeptical as well. I saw what they did and could manage and now I would consider them one of the best, if not the best, at taking care of true large voltage hits.

Can they protect all the time? Of course not. They, however, perform the task better then most of the other manufactures out there.

Gordon
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
Also: most UL grades are numbers, not letters (UL | UL Performance Verification Services)
Here is the information on UL 1449 listing for the surge suppressors. And you might want to read this as well....

SurgeX - The Leader in Surge Suppression, Elimination and Power Conditioning Technology

SurgeX - The Leader in Surge Suppression, Elimination and Power Conditioning Technology

The above is all in reference to the UL1449 testing for surge suppressors.

Gordon
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I've never heard of this most trusted name (which is odd, because I deal with protecting server and telcom hardware as part of my job).
Clearly you don't visit the Outlaw Audio page often enough :p
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Here is the information on UL 1449 listing for the surge suppressors. And you might want to read this as well....
All this mumbo jumbo from Surgex, etc does not answer the OP's questions. Plenty of technical citations are posted without understanding their engineering relevance. Which OP's anomaly does each citation address?

For example, UL1449 says nothing about a protector being effective. UL is about human safety. All UL testing is about protecting human life from events such as fire. In some UL tests, a protector can even fail (do no protection). And still be UL listed. Why? It failed in a manner that did not threaten human life. You should have known what UL tests for before recommending UL 1449.

Even letters for each UL category does not define protection. It defines which human safety test applies to that protector. To know that means understanding what UL testing addresses. Probably even defined on UL's homepage. Read it to learn what UL tests for.

Surgex is a series mode filter. So which in a long list of anomlies does the Surgex solve? Apparently all anomalies are solved by a Surgex? Nonsense. The Surgex even has a wire that bypasses it; carries a transient into the appliance.

Those citations say little towards the OP's question. A short list of anomalies include frequency variation, harmonics, single point grounding (ie current loops), noise, voltage variation, RFI, power factor, EMC/EMI, open neutral, longitudinal and transverse currents, safety ground, and leakage currents. What does a power conditioner do? OP's answer means each anomaly is discussed separately and with numbers. Which anomaly does a Surgex solve?

No power conditioner addresses most anomalies. Power conditioners vary according to what is solved. Even a Surgex only addresses a few anomalies. To answer the OP's question, list each anomaly. Then cite the Surgex spec number that says 'how' that anomaly is solved.

Even a citation about balanced power is, well I suspect you have no idea how it applies to the OP's question. Many are already made irrelevant by what exists inside electronics. If you did comprehend that citation, then the relevant part would have been quoted. And relevant numbers highlighted.

One common anomaly easily solved and rarely implemented by homeowners is a destructive surge. Using their own numbes, Surgex only addresses surges made irrelevant by protection already inside electronics. And that assumes a surge does not take the bypass wire.

All facilities that have effective protection implement a single point earth ground. And connect to that ground either directly (a hardwire) or via a protector. That solution always exists in facilities that cannot have damage. And that is only a solution to one of so many anomalies.

You should have known that UL 1449 does not define effective protection. You should have known that UL is about safety. Surgex is a superior solution for but a few unique anomalies. Selling it as a solution to all anomalies (like so many power conditioners) is naive. Which anomaly does it address? Each citation should say which anomaly is solved. Summarize the relevant engineering number. Otherwise, one can only assume you are posting citations you do not even comprehend.

Any 'line conditioner' solution starts by first defining the anomaly. Some miracle line conditioner that addresses all anomalies is, well, that claim exists only in advertising, urban myths, and hearsay.
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
All this mumbo jumbo from Surgex, etc does not answer the OP's questions. Plenty of technical citations are posted without understanding their engineering relevance. Which OP's anomaly does each citation address?

For example, UL1449 says nothing about a protector being effective. UL is about human safety. All UL testing is about protecting human life from events such as fire. In some UL tests, a protector can even fail (do no protection). And still be UL listed. Why? It failed in a manner that did not threaten human life. You should have known what UL tests for before recommending UL 1449.

Even letters for each UL category does not define protection. It defines which human safety test applies to that protector. To know that means understanding what UL testing addresses. Probably even defined on UL's homepage. Read it to learn what UL tests for.

Surgex is a series mode filter. So which in a long list of anomlies does the Surgex solve? Apparently all anomalies are solved by a Surgex? Nonsense. The Surgex even has a wire that bypasses it; carries a transient into the appliance.

Those citations say little towards the OP's question. A short list of anomalies include frequency variation, harmonics, single point grounding (ie current loops), noise, voltage variation, RFI, power factor, EMC/EMI, open neutral, longitudinal and transverse currents, safety ground, and leakage currents. What does a power conditioner do? OP's answer means each anomaly is discussed separately and with numbers. Which anomaly does a Surgex solve?

No power conditioner addresses most anomalies. Power conditioners vary according to what is solved. Even a Surgex only addresses a few anomalies. To answer the OP's question, list each anomaly. Then cite the Surgex spec number that says 'how' that anomaly is solved.

Even a citation about balanced power is, well I suspect you have no idea how it applies to the OP's question. Many are already made irrelevant by what exists inside electronics. If you did comprehend that citation, then the relevant part would have been quoted. And relevant numbers highlighted.

One common anomaly easily solved and rarely implemented by homeowners is a destructive surge. Using their own numbes, Surgex only addresses surges made irrelevant by protection already inside electronics. And that assumes a surge does not take the bypass wire.

All facilities that have effective protection implement a single point earth ground. And connect to that ground either directly (a hardwire) or via a protector. That solution always exists in facilities that cannot have damage. And that is only a solution to one of so many anomalies.

You should have known that UL 1449 does not define effective protection. You should have known that UL is about safety. Surgex is a superior solution for but a few unique anomalies. Selling it as a solution to all anomalies (like so many power conditioners) is naive. Which anomaly does it address? Each citation should say which anomaly is solved. Summarize the relevant engineering number. Otherwise, one can only assume you are posting citations you do not even comprehend.

Any 'line conditioner' solution starts by first defining the anomaly. Some miracle line conditioner that addresses all anomalies is, well, that claim exists only in advertising, urban myths, and hearsay.
What is you problem?

I simply posted some links that supplied good information on different surge protector approaches. For some reason you think I am a sales person selling surgex and that I should have given a complete report on how this product can solve each and every problem including your attitude. I never said that this product or manufacture was the thing that would solve all the problems, so please do not read into things and do not put words in my mouth.

I quoted the UL1449 because it was referenced by another poster not because I was saying anything about its problem solving abilities or it's life safety issues.

So please before you push you finger in my chest and try and call me naive and illinformed and not knowing the subject matter make sure you know who you are speaking with before you make yourself look like a fool.

Have a very nice evening!

Gordon
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Having seen Westom argue against you; I now agree with anything you've said 10 posts in either direction of his. (which includes like the next 8 things you post).

It's a matter of principle :D
 
W

westom

Audioholic
I simply posted some links that supplied good information on different surge protector approaches.
Well that is the problem. Your citations say little that is useful or relevant to this discussion: the OP's question. Surgex is not a surge protector. It is a series mode filter. Apparently you did not grasp the point. It may address some other anomaly; just not surge protection. So you get angry?

UL1449 says nothing relevant to this discussion. Categories A, B, and C are also say nothing about line conditioning. You promoted it as if it was a rating for surge protectors. It is not. UL is only about safety - a topic irrelevant to this thread, line conditioning, and the OP's question.

Surgex is for some other anomaly. Baleanced power is just as irrelevant. UL 1449 defines nothing useful here. No line conditioner solves all anomalies or even most anomalies. So why get angry because you did not know any of that?

Apparently reality is only about you. I said selling Surgex as a solution to all anomalies is naive. If that somehow is you, then man up. Learn about what you did not know rather than have a tirade.
 
Last edited:
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
Having seen Westom argue against you; I now agree with anything you've said 10 posts in either direction of his. (which includes like the next 8 things you post).

It's a matter of principle :D
Well thank you Jerry! That is greatly appreciated! ;)

Gordon
 
W

westom

Audioholic
And so on and so forth
Subjective statements say nothing. A shovel of dirt can stop a flood. The informed, instead, also quote numbers. Surgex does protect from a surge? According to its spec numbers, only a surge too tiny to damage any appliances. Its surge protection is that near zero.

Unfortunately we keep having these same discussions. JerryLove quotes sales brochures and subjective claims. Spec numbers say something completely different. Perspective means specification numbers. Surgex, balanced power, and UL 1449 do not define surge protection. Those address other anomalies.

Quoting a sales brochure says nothing useful. Show us the numbers.
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
Well that is the problem. Your citations say little that is useful or relevant to this discussion: the OP's question. Surgex is not a surge protector. It is a series mode filter. Apparently you did not grasp the point. It may address some other anomaly; just not surge protection. So you get angry?

UL1449 says nothing relevant to this discussion. Categories A, B, and C are also say nothing about line conditioning. You promoted it as if it was a rating for surge protectors. It is not. UL is only about safety - a topic irrelevant to this thread, line conditioning, and the OP's question.

Surgex is for some other anomaly. Baleanced power is just as irrelevant. UL 1449 defines nothing useful here. No line conditioner solves all anomalies or even most anomalies. So why get angry because you did not know any of that?

Apparently reality is only about you. I said selling Surgex as a solution to all anomalies is naive. If that somehow is you, then man up. Learn about what you did not know rather than have a tirade.
Thank you for such a good laugh this morning. Since you obviously know more then anyone on this subject matter, I will simply let you continue your bloviating and watch in awe.

Gordon
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Thats not so bad, I was expecting some your mother references...


Surge protectors are a waste of money, buy one if you need a pretty powerstrip but just keep your insurance premiums paid and you will be much better off then buying some fancy dancy surge protector...

I rub maple syrup on my power cables and it has seemed to work so far, but dealing with all these ants sucks, although when you play real loud it smells like a bed and breakfast in here...
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Come to think of it... The dealer told me that my power bar will protect against when the power clicks off randomly during blackouts???? Does this sound correct or am I f'ucking it up?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Come to think of it... The dealer told me that my power bar will protect against when the power clicks off randomly during blackouts???? Does this sound correct or am I f'ucking it up?
It should protect the gear in that situation, yes.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
Come to think of it... The dealer told me that my power bar will protect against when the power clicks off randomly during blackouts???? Does this sound correct ...
Well since power clicking off destroys microwave ovens, digital clocks, dishwashers, and smoke detectors, then you also need one for every other appliance. Or a reality: power clicking off harms nothing. That power bar successfully protects from something that causes no damage.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
People need to live in a lightning capital to really experience blown up equipment even with commercial surge protection at the service main. But there is nothing like watching $10,000 - $20,000 worth of HT and stereo equipment go up in a ball of chip dust.:eek: and that smile of burnt plastic to understand the power of mother nature.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
People need to live in a lightning capital to really experience blown up equipment even with commercial surge protection at the service main. But there is nothing like watching $10,000 - $20,000 worth of HT and stereo equipment go up in a ball of chip dust.:eek: and that smile of burnt plastic to understand the power of mother nature.
That, and that some don't understand the differences between Surges, Sags, Spikes, a Direct Strike, and simple noise on a line.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
That, and that some don't understand the differences between Surges, Sags, Spikes, a Direct Strike, and simple noise on a line.
yep what got my equipment as a result of a hit to a pine tree in the neighbors yard. Just think, "An average bolt of negative lightning carries an electric current of 30,000 amperes (30 kA), and transfers 15 coulombs of electric charge and 500 megajoules of energy" yep those little surge protectors are going to really stand up to that. :eek: stand back and watch mother nature work her magic on plastic
 
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