Hi, my name is Justin and I have never owned a subwoofer.

[slipperybidness]

There is definitely a "safety net" when buying commercially. Six weeks to figure out if I like an SVS offering. Don't like it, I'm out shipping to send it back.

Part of my trepidation with the DIY route stems from a lack of confidence in my ability to get the finished product dialed in for my living room. Although to be fair I can say the same for a commercial sub.

The same is true with my plasma. The picture is pretty good but I always wonder if it could be better. I suppose I could have it calibrated and there are people I can hire to help with the audio setup as well.

The retailers in the Dayton area seem disinterested in really helping. I'm one guy, buying one subwoofer for under $1000. They looking for the big sale and I'm not it.

I posted this earlier in a PM I sent to GranteedEV:

I went to Parts Express on lunch today. None of the employees knew anything about home theater sound or DIY speaker building. They had a BIC F12 ($230) and a Dayton 15" sub ($950) in their demo "room".

The guy who helped me turned on the 15". They had Revenge of the Sith playing. All I heard was loud, boomy, low-frequency noise. He stood there with a huge grin on his face and told me that he wanted one of those for his apartment. I thought it was awful. I had him try the BIC and it sounded just as bad, only with less impact. Another sales guy walked in an said the BIC was best sub they had. I know their demo cubby hole is not an ideal environment and that neither of those subs were anywhere close to being dialed in...

But it occurred to me as I was driving back to work....I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and acquaintances with decent home theater sound. Most don't have anything at all. I have a buddy who has a nice front projection theater in his basement but for the sound which consists of a low-end Sony AVR, a hodge podge of old off-brand speakers, and an 8" Onkyo sub from a HTIB. I go there a few times a year to watch Bengals/Browns, the Super Bowl, and his annual Oscar party. But the wife and I quit watching movies there because the sound was godawful.

You go to Best Buy and either nothing is hooked up or its just boomy noise. I think one reason I have never owned a sub is because I'm subconsciously trained to believe it is not possible to achieve quality sound at home. Because I have never experienced it.

My next goal is to find some DIYers and home theater enthusiasts in the Dayton/Cinci area that would be willing to demo their systems and share their experience. I want to hear something that sounds amazing. I want to be inspired. Ultimately, I want to do this right so that when I have friends over to watch movies, it will be a memorable experience that melts their faces.

I'm supposed to go see the guy at a local retail who sold me my Paradigms 10 or 12 years ago about a subwoofer in about an hour. I talked to him on Saturday and he recommended the Def Tech Prosub 1000 for $499. I told him earlier today that my budget had a increased to $750 or $800 and he mentioned a Golden Ear 10" that he wants to demo for me. We'll see. I specifically asked him about SVS, HSU, and Outlaw because they're frequently recommended in my budget. I wasn't expecting a big thumbs up but at least he had heard of them. We'll see how the audition goes.

I realize I'm probably borderline crazy by fretting this decision so much. Most normal people would have bought a Polk sub at Best Buy, brought it home, plugged it in, turned all the dials to max. Sigh....

I think the Def Techs and Goldenear subs are probably good. But you just get more for the $ with the ID brands. You can get great for the same $.

 

[hjustin]

I auditioned two subs tonight.

#1) GoldenEar ForceField 4: This was paired up with GoldenEar SuperSats in one a comfy demo room. Their in-house system offered numerous demo selections. Played clips from Transformers 3, Super 8, and Batman Begins. First pass, the 10" sub emitted a constant, toneless rumble that I found very fatiguing. The gentleman who was helping me made some changes in the Sony ES receiver (because the whole setup sounded terrible) and adjusted the volume and crossover on the sub. Better. But still, the sub was all boomy noise. He told me that this setup had not been calibrated. Maybe it would have benefited by some tuning. Not impressed for the sub or the GoldenEar speakers in general.

#2) SnapAV Episode 12: Never heard of them. Apparently they're not well known outside the custom installation world although they have recently began to move into other areas. This demo room was outfitted with a SnapAV front, left, and center, all fed by a Denon AVR that is this year's version of my 591. This particular demo room was not on their network so I could not listen with the same demo material. Megamind was in the Blu-ray player so we zipped around to some of the action scenes. I would describe this experience of listening to this sub as smooth. Unlike the endless, annoying rumble of the GoldenEar sub, I couldn't tell this sub was there until it was required. Because this room had just been setup, no Audyssey calibration had been completed yet. No tuning at all other than setting crossovers. The entire setup sounded fantastic. This sub is $650. I'm going to try to dig up some reviews for this sub or see if anyone has heard of them. He told me that if I wanted to buy and take it home, if I wasn't happy after a few weeks I could return it. I'm extremely tempted. If I can achieve the same kind of performance in my living room, mission accomplished. If it does work out, I'll buy a second one in the near future.

 

[hjustin]

Specs on the Episode sub:

Episode 300 Watt, 12 in. Ported, Powered Subwoofer (Gloss Black)
WOOFER 12" Woven Fiberglass Sandwich Cone, High Temp 2" diameter Voice Coil
POWER 300 Watt (650W dynamic)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE (-3DB) 25 Hz - 200 Hz
CROSSOVER FREQUENCY 40 Hz - 200 Hz
FINISHED DIMENSIONS 17.2" H x 16.5" W x 16.5" D
CONNECTORS RCA Inputs & Gold Plated 5-Way Binding Posts
WEIGHT 42.1 lbs
COMPARABLE PRODUCTS Velodyne Impact 12, Polk DSW Pro 600, Paradigm DSP-3200, Klipsch SW-112
ADJUSTMENTS Volume, Crossover Frequency, Phase, Turn-On

 

[Steve81]

I realize I'm probably borderline crazy by fretting this decision so much. Most normal people would have bought a Polk sub at Best Buy, brought it home, plugged it in, turned all the dials to max. Sigh....

It is tough when nobody you know really appreciates it. I know how you feel as I'm in the same boat. In my circle of friends/family, moving beyond my system, I think the next "best" (and I use that term loosely) consists of some in ceiling speakers being driven by a bottom of the barrel Yamaha receiver and supported by a Bose bass module.

My next goal is to find some DIYers and home theater enthusiasts in the Dayton/Cinci area that would be willing to demo their systems and share their experience. I want to hear something that sounds amazing. I want to be inspired.

I think that's a good idea. No disrespect intended to the SnapAV Episode 12 you just auditioned, I don't anything about it except the specs you've just posted; however, while it might have given you a taste, I'd guess something like a well calibrated pair of SVS PB13s in a midsized room might just blow your mind. The unfortunate problem it creates is that your eyes are opened AND U WANTZ MOAR!!! On the upside, depending on what sacrifices you might be willing to make, such an experience is more affordable than you might think.

 

[anamorphic96]

I auditioned two subs tonight.

#1) GoldenEar ForceField 4: This was paired up with GoldenEar SuperSats in one a comfy demo room. Their in-house system offered numerous demo selections. Played clips from Transformers 3, Super 8, and Batman Begins. First pass, the 10" sub emitted a constant, toneless rumble that I found very fatiguing. The gentleman who was helping me made some changes in the Sony ES receiver (because the whole setup sounded terrible) and adjusted the volume and crossover on the sub. Better. But still, the sub was all boomy noise. He told me that this setup had not been calibrated. Maybe it would have benefited by some tuning. Not impressed for the sub or the GoldenEar speakers in general.

#2) SnapAV Episode 12: Never heard of them. Apparently they're not well known outside the custom installation world although they have recently began to move into other areas. This demo room was outfitted with a SnapAV front, left, and center, all fed by a Denon AVR that is this year's version of my 591. This particular demo room was not on their network so I could not listen with the same demo material. Megamind was in the Blu-ray player so we zipped around to some of the action scenes. I would describe this experience of listening to this sub as smooth. Unlike the endless, annoying rumble of the GoldenEar sub, I couldn't tell this sub was there until it was required. Because this room had just been setup, no Audyssey calibration had been completed yet. No tuning at all other than setting crossovers. The entire setup sounded fantastic. This sub is $650. I'm going to try to dig up some reviews for this sub or see if anyone has heard of them. He told me that if I wanted to buy and take it home, if I wasn't happy after a few weeks I could return it. I'm extremely tempted. If I can achieve the same kind of performance in my living room, mission accomplished. If it does work out, I'll buy a second one in the near future.

Give HSU research a call. They have top notch service and will help you with all your set up needs. They have a very clean sound when set up properly, and also offer variable tuning and Q control for maximum flexibility.

I will probably never buy a sub from another company. HSU is that good in my book.

 

[hjustin]

Only one review for the Episode sub online and it was strictly anecdotal. No numbers. All I know is that it sounded really good. The system as a whole sounded better than anything I have ever heard outside some of the better theater auditoriums I experienced.

Granted, it's not like I've had much to sample. In fact, if you don't count Bose stuff or inexpensive HTIB, I haven't really heard anything. I bought my Paradigms more than ten years ago after tons of online research. But I was able to demo them at a local retailer (where I listened to the Episode sub tonight).

I'm not optimistic that I'm going to find anyone that's going to invite me into their home for a demonstration. And I don't know if I have the patience to wait around for weeks for that to happen. So I either bring the Episode home tomorrow and hopefully enjoy it for years without really knowing what I'm missing otherwise, or I flip a coin, heads for SVS, tails for HSU.

My DIY hopes are all but dashed at this point as my buddy who I would lean on the build my enclosures is interested, but doesn't have time.

 

[shadyJ]

Just guessing from the specs on that sub, but I am sure it is not in the same league as Hsu or SVS. The cabinet dimensions make me think that the claimed -3b at 25 hz is rather optimistic. It's also pretty light for a ported sub, the equivalently priced Hsu sub is twice as heavy (to be fair, its also a bit larger), and this makes me wonder about the cabinet bracing. If you were impressed by that sub, go for the Hsu VTF3 mk4, that will knock you out. However, keep in mind that placement and calibration go a long way into making a sub sound great, so don't just plug the sub in and forget about it. Try the "subwoofer crawl" technique for finding the optimal placement for your sub. Also make sure you follow the setup guidelines in the sub's manual. If you get a sub which is a known great performer, and take a little time to set it up properly, you can have a much better bass system that what you have already demoed.

 

[Steve81]

I'm not optimistic that I'm going to find anyone that's going to invite me into their home for a demonstration. And I don't know if I have the patience to wait around for weeks for that to happen. So I either bring the Episode home tomorrow and hopefully enjoy it for years without really knowing what I'm missing otherwise, or I flip a coin, heads for SVS, tails for HSU.

There is something to be said for the phrase "ignorance is bliss" as well as a strategy of "satisficing".

If you believe the Episode will make you happy for years to come (ie it won't bother you to think what could have been), by all means, buy it and run away from forums such as this one where you're going to be constantly reminded of what's out there.

OTOH, if you think you've already crossed the threshold of wanting to hear more...maybe pick up that $75 Paradigm as a stopgap and see if you can arrange a day trip up to SVS, get to know forum members near Dayton, etc.

PS: You familiar with Eaton (exit 10 on 70)? I take regular trips out that way (my wife is from there originally and of some interest, went to Miami at the same time as Ben Roethlisberger).

 

[Jeff R.]

It sounds to me like you are not ready to make a commitment of $650 dollars yet.

BUY THE $75 Paradigm!!!! Use it for a year and do your reasearch and then sell it when you are ready to make your big purchase and list it for $100. :0

 

[hjustin]

I can have my choice of a Paradigm PS-1000 or a PDR-10. Both are the same vintage....about 10 years old.

 

[Steve81]

I can have my choice of a Paradigm PS-1000 or a PDR-10. Both are the same vintage....about 10 years old.

By the specs, the PS-1000 ought to be the superior of the two. More power, larger, heavier cabinet, deeper rated extension, etc. I could think of much worse ways to spend $75.

 

[hjustin]

Just picked up the PS-1000. He took $50 for it. This should give me something to play with until I decide on which heavy-hitter to buy.

I also gave the Episode 12" another listen, but this time I took m Fellowship of the Ring Blu-ray so I could give it a good beating. Megamind is relatively light on low-end compared to FoTR. I played the opening battle scene and the Balrog v. Gandalf scene from Moria. The sub handled these scenes reasonably well but it did dip into the boomy-ville at times.

I told the sales guy that I would let him know. He's probably getting tired of me. You guys are probably getting tired of me, too.

 

[Steve81]

Just picked up the PS-1000. He took $50 for it. This should give me something to play with until I decide on which heavy-hitter to buy.

Sweet. Fifty McDoubles for a decent (if older) subwoofer is a pretty good deal in my book

You guys are probably getting tired of me, too.

Nah. Wouldn't be much of a forum without people asking questions.

 

[Grador]

Nah. Wouldn't be much of a forum without people asking questions.

Especially people who are honestly interested in learning, which can be disturbingly rare sometimes.

Tell us what you think of that paradigm, I see some [possibly the same one shuffling between people on craigslist] crop up occasionally and have been wondering if it would be much of an upgrade for me.

 

[hjustin]

I guess the title of this thread is no longer true. It should be "My name is Justin and I have a $50 subwoofer."

I hooked up the Paradigm PS-1000 this morning. Didn't really do any of the stuff I know I need to do...sub crawling and all that. I stuck it in front corner of the room, set phase to 0, crossover to 80hz, and the volume right in the middle. Fired up the Denon 591 and turned the subwoofer on, wrecking my Audyssey calibration from a few days ago. I adjusted the crossover on my Monitor 7s and CC-350 to 80hz.

Even though I'm primarily interested in movies, the first thing I listened to is Unsustainable from Muse's new release, 2nd Law. This song has choir, strings, and some crazy Dubstep low-end. I wouldn't say it sounded great or even good really(still sounds better in my truck with it's factory Bose sound). But there's definitely a lot more there that I wasn't getting before.

Intrigued, I moved on to Fellowship of the Ring on Blu-ray. If you have been following this whole mess, you will recall I used this disc yesterday at my local retailer to audition the Episode 12" sub. A few observations:

1. I've been shortchanging myself for years by not having a subwoofer. The experience, even as awful to mediocre as my current configuration is at the moment, is still better than anything I've heard in anyone else's home. At the same time, I also think that my L/C/R sounded better without the PS-1000.

2. My Denon AVR-591 is almost identical to the AVR-1612 that is running the Episode audition room at the local store. My system isn't anywhere NEAR as loud as that room. They have output display on their Denon set to a 1-100 scale. I had that thing at 75 yesterday and it was LOUD. But also pretty clean. In fact, the entire Episode 5.1 setup sounded significantly better than my Paradigm stuff. It was more detailed, fuller. I'm probably doing something wrong at home. I need to run Audyssey again with the sub. And I need to get my surround speakers involved. Still haven't done that because running wires is going to be a pain in the butt. Maybe it's the room at the shop...it's drywall on metal studs with a tiled drop ceiling but they didn't have some decorative sound treatments on the wall and it was carpeted.

3. For $50, if I can get this dialed in a little better, I'm pretty excited. Didn't these things cost $600 or $700 new back in the day? I still can't imagine what I'm going to have when I upgrade to an SVS or HSU. Or even the Episode. I'm still learning this subwoofer stuff. I guess the PS-1000 is a bandpass sub. I have read that bandpass subs are inferior to ported and sealed? Is that the case?

4. When I get this tuned up, I'm going to have to re-watch every movie I own.

Now I have a million errands to run and a family gathering to attend this evening. I hope to get squeeze in an audio calibration and I need to get a cable so I use the tone generator on my iPhone and try to find the sweet spot for this sub. One thing is certain, I love all this stuff. This ride has been a lot of fun.

 

[hjustin]

Quick question:

When I calibrate with Audyssey, I'm setting the volume at half, phase at 0. Where do I set the crossover?

Thanks!

 

[hjustin]

Okay, I just did a quick calibration with only one mic position. I wanted to see where Audyssey would set the gain on the sub with volume at half. Put it at -5.6db. I'll have to double check...I think I'm good on that.

I put in Iron Man and cranked the volume on the Denon. Previously, I had learned that setting the volume much past -10 was going to cause my front speakers to bottom out in bass heavy content because they were set to full range. Audyssey set the crossover on my Monitor 7s to 40hz and the CC-350 to 60hz. I left them there for now but I found I can actually increase the volume considerably. I had it at 0db in some intense scenes and it was loud. Even with a lot of low frequency stuff, my system did not clip or bottom out of distort in any way. Explosions and machine gun fire are pretty impressive, punching me in the chest. I've never experienced that at home before. My wife is going love this. My God, what would an HSU VTF-3 MK 4 sound like? FUN!

More tweaking ahead. I know this is crazy, but I swear my 65" Panasonic plasma looks BETTER with better sound.

 

[Steve81]

Quick question:

When I calibrate with Audyssey, I'm setting the volume at half, phase at 0. Where do I set the crossover?

Thanks!

Per the owners manual, it should have an option to disable the crossover. Your Denon will handle the bass management.

 

[hjustin]

I just saw the PS-1000 described as such:

They are slow, plodding, inarticulate noise makers.

If that's the case, I have much to look forward to.

 

[Steve81]

4. When I get this tuned up, I'm going to have to re-watch every movie I own.

Have fun! Sounds like $50 well spent to me