Hi, my name is Justin and I have never owned a subwoofer.

[hjustin]

I somehow managed to get through the Audyssey routine after work today between the dogs making a racket and the neighbor's leaf blower.

I've been using my Monitor 7s and CC-350 with the calibration I took in the small apartment where we lived in 2011. I distinctly remember running Audyssey just before the first episode of Game of Thrones season 1 aired. I was using my Monitor 3s and an old CC-100 at the time with the Atoms handling surround duty. Big difference between those setups nevermind room dimensions and surfaces.

When I was done today, I found The Adjustment Bureau on HBO HD to try out the new calibration. What a huge difference. I remember now why I bought these speakers and I'm going to hang on to them for now. I am positively jacked up to get a subwoofer in the mix.

 

[Grador]

As for surrounds, I would strongly suggest doing what you intend to and putting up the Atoms as surrounds. When you have the couch against the back wall a dipole or bipole just won't quite work right, they like some space behind them.

 

[hjustin]

Reading some other threads in this forum this morning. Of particular interest is this thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/81625-subwoofer-dilemma.html

Slippery has a much larger room than I do at 6000 cubic feet. I re-measured my space last night. The living room is actually closer to 2400 cubic feet. The back wall has a 7' opening to the entrance foyer/hallway. If I include the width of that extra space and say...10' of the hallway that adds 440 cubic feet.

Several people in that thread commented that most movie bass (which is really my main concern) is above 30Hz and the worrying about output at 25Hz and below should not be a priority. Given that, are the often recommended SVS PB12-NSD or HSU VTF3-MK4 still the best choices for me in my $750 budget? Also, how might my output be affected by laminate flooring?

Thanks!

 

[Steve81]

I remember now why I bought these speakers and I'm going to hang on to them for now.

Excellent! It's refreshing to see people appreciate what they've got.

I am positively jacked up to get a subwoofer in the mix.

They do certainly add a little something

Don't know if you're aware of this site:
Data-Bass

It's a compilation of measurements by Josh Ricci (who does the subwoofer reviews here at AH) which I find quite handy. It's a lot of data to take in at once, but going through it, you can get a decent idea of what performance is available for different types and prices of subwoofer in a convenient location.

 

[hjustin]

Reading some other threads in this forum this morning. Of particular interest is this thread Slipperybidness's thread in which he sought recommendations for his room (can't link unfortunately).

Slippery has a much larger room than I do at 6000 cubic feet. I re-measured my space last night. The living room is actually closer to 2400 cubic feet. The back wall has a 7' opening to the entrance foyer/hallway. If I include the width of that extra space and say...10' of the hallway that adds 440 cubic feet.

Several people in that thread commented that most movie bass (which is really my main concern) is above 30Hz and the worrying about output at 25Hz and below should not be a priority. Given that, are the often recommended SVS PB12-NSD or HSU VTF3-MK4 still the best choices for me in my $750 budget? Also, how might my output be affected by laminate flooring?

Thanks!

 

[Steve81]

The living room is actually closer to 2400 cubic feet. The back wall has a 7' opening to the entrance foyer/hallway. If I include the width of that extra space and say...10' of the hallway that adds 440 cubic feet.

So about 2840 cubic feet for the room and any attached spaces that can't be sealed off? By the AH room size rating system, that puts you at the high end of a "medium" sized room.

Several people in that thread commented that most movie bass (which is really my main concern) is above 30Hz and the worrying about output at 25Hz and below should not be a priority. Given that, are the often recommended SVS PB12-NSD or HSU VTF3-MK4 still the best choices for me in my $750 budget?

Certainly it can't be argued that there is far more content in any given film at 30Hz on up than below, and I don't think anyone would recommend compromising on >30Hz content for <30Hz content. OTOH, those scenes that do have significant content below 30Hz, if you can afford a subwoofer that can reproduce them with authority, will put a big smile on your face.

The most pertinent example in my case is running with and without a subwoofer. My main speakers can dig into the 30Hz range with authority, and between the two speakers, 4-8" drivers can move a respectable amount of air and deliver a pretty good punch when called for. In spite of that, a subwoofer that can dig competently to 20Hz or below makes for a different experience.

IMO the Hsu and the SVS are solid suggestions. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX is also a fantastic bang for the buck subwoofer and by the numbers offers much greater clean 32Hz on up output than the SVS. I'd also expect the new offerings from Power Sound Audio to be solid in this regard as well, although none have been put through the ringer just yet.

Also, how might my output be affected by laminate flooring?

I wouldn't expect it to make any special difference.

 

[hjustin]

I guy here in town offered me an older Paradigm PS-1000 for $75. I could probably get it for $50. It's tempting, just to mess around with until I order something new in a few weeks.

 

[GranteedEV]

Good point on regarding the room. My wife is extremely forgiving with the home theater stuff because she loves it, too, but I don't think I can get away with two subs.

I`m sure one will have the adequate output, but there`re some serious advantages to multiple bass sources.

Are Two Subwoofers Better than One? &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics

 

[hjustin]

I`m sure one will have the adequate output, but there`re some serious advantages to multiple bass sources.

Are Two Subwoofers Better than One? &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics

We talked about the home theater upgrades last night and I explained the WAF concept. She got a kick out of that and then proceeded to tell me to do whatever I wanted. Her only wish is that I keep the cables tidy.

So two subs is doable on that front. Budget is another matter, however. If I know I'm going with two subs, can I go less expensive?

 

[Steve81]

If I know I'm going with two subs, can I go less expensive?

Depends on what your goals are. Multiple subwoofers can help smooth frequency response in room and add some extra output (how much depends on the room and placement). OTOH, you're not going to be gaining anything in the way of extension. A pair of Hsu STF-2s for example are still going to dwindle after 25Hz. A Hsu VTF 3.4 on the other hand can potentially dig down to 16Hz depending on tuning mode, and will offer considerably more output than a single STF-2.

It's difficult to say which is the better path. In my case, a single corner loaded subwoofer yields me respectably flat measured response at my listening position (which is a pretty lucky thing), and I don't really give a damn about the rest of the room since I'm the only person with pretenses of being an Audioholic in the house, in my family, or even in my circle of friends. OTOH, if you want a bunch of friends over to demo the system and you want to better ensure consistent bass across multiple seating positions, you'll probably want multiples.

 

[GranteedEV]

We talked about the home theater upgrades last night and I explained the WAF concept. She got a kick out of that and then proceeded to tell me to do whatever I wanted. Her only wish is that I keep the cables tidy.

So two subs is doable on that front. Budget is another matter, however. If I know I'm going with two subs, can I go less expensive?

Well movies a lot of content below about 25hz @ 105 to 115db. That 12 to 25hz octave is probably the hardest and most expensiv to reproduce. You're probably stuck with one on your budget.

 

[hjustin]

Well movies a lot of content below about 25hz @ 105 to 115db. That 12 to 25hz octave is probably the hardest and most expensiv to reproduce. You're probably stuck with one on your budget.

I could probably go $1200 for two subs if I buy one now and one in a few months. Not sure that helps.

 

[GranteedEV]

I could probably go $1200 for two subs if I buy one now and one in a few months. Not sure that helps.

I dunno

Have you considered some DIY?

 

[hjustin]

I have not considered DIY. I don't know anything about it.

 

[GranteedEV]

I have not considered DIY. I don't know anything about it.

You buy a pair of drivers and a good amp, and then construct boxes for them. Could end up being very high-performance with high bang-for-buck. Finishes can range from spray paint to veneer to vinyl laminate.

Of course we can help design the enclosures for you and give construction advice

 

[hjustin]

You buy a pair of drivers and a good amp, and then construct boxes for them. Could end up being very high-performance with high bang-for-buck. Finishes can range from spray paint to veneer to vinyl laminate.

Of course we can help design the enclosures for you and give construction advice

I'm actually really interested in looking into this. I'm not a carpenter by any stretch but the electronics part of it I would be comfortable with. Fortunately, I have a very good friend who is a carpenter and has a wood shop.

Going to research this and see if I can build something that will perform as well or better than the commercial subs I'm considering. I live 15 minutes from Parts Express.

Thank you for the suggestion!

 

[Steve81]

I'm not a big DIY guy personally, but it's easy to see the appeal (and consequently, the drawbacks).

Going over these:
Data-Bass

Should give you a starter as to what can be accomplished via DIY, and you can compare the results to a number of retail designs. You'll note that designs range from monstrous tapped horns like the "Gjallarhorn" to a small sealed sub with a 12" TC Sounds LMSR 12" driver, with some bass reflex designs to round out the selection.

 

[hjustin]

I'm not a big DIY guy personally, but it's easy to see the appeal (and consequently, the drawbacks).

Going over these:
Data-Bass

Should give you a starter as to what can be accomplished via DIY, and you can compare the results to a number of retail designs. You'll note that designs range from monstrous tapped horns like the "Gjallarhorn" to a small sealed sub with a 12" TC Sounds LMSR 12" driver, with some bass reflex designs to round out the selection.

What are the drawbacks, Steve, from your perspective?

Another question: once you identify the appropriate spot in a given room for one sub, is that THE spot for any sub for that room or is it sub specific?

 

[Steve81]

What are the drawbacks, Steve, from your perspective?

To my eyes, there are two reasons to go for DIY, and the drawbacks are consequences of the chief reason: value (the other reason being getting into more exotic designs that aren't readily available commercially like Tuba HTs).

With respect to value, you buy a driver, an amp, materials from a cabinet, and you save in terms of labor (although not if you're having someone build it yourself, and I'm no carpenter either), engineering of the enclosure, and support. Me, I like support and generous return policies. Companies like SVS and Hsu will walk you through the entire setup and calibration of your subwoofer. You can't buy a raw Dayton driver from PE and expect the same level of support. Even though I like to think I know what I'm doing, a guy like Ed Mullen knows 1000 times more than I do, and knowing I've got a guy like him on tap is comforting. And in the end, if I'm not satisfied, I can send my subwoofer right on back, no fuss, no muss. If you don't like your DIY project, you've got a box which you spent money on materials and either your time or more money to build that's basically garbage.

Another question: once you identify the appropriate spot in a given room for one sub, is that THE spot for any sub for that room or is it sub specific?

While it would stand to reason that the same room modes should be excited given the same placement, there are other practical reasons which may yield differences between two subwoofers.

 

[hjustin]

There is definitely a "safety net" when buying commercially. Six weeks to figure out if I like an SVS offering. Don't like it, I'm out shipping to send it back.

Part of my trepidation with the DIY route stems from a lack of confidence in my ability to get the finished product dialed in for my living room. Although to be fair I can say the same for a commercial sub.

The same is true with my plasma. The picture is pretty good but I always wonder if it could be better. I suppose I could have it calibrated and there are people I can hire to help with the audio setup as well.

The retailers in the Dayton area seem disinterested in really helping. I'm one guy, buying one subwoofer for under $1000. They looking for the big sale and I'm not it.

I posted this earlier in a PM I sent to GranteedEV:

I went to Parts Express on lunch today. None of the employees knew anything about home theater sound or DIY speaker building. They had a BIC F12 ($230) and a Dayton 15" sub ($950) in their demo "room".

The guy who helped me turned on the 15". They had Revenge of the Sith playing. All I heard was loud, boomy, low-frequency noise. He stood there with a huge grin on his face and told me that he wanted one of those for his apartment. I thought it was awful. I had him try the BIC and it sounded just as bad, only with less impact. Another sales guy walked in an said the BIC was best sub they had. I know their demo cubby hole is not an ideal environment and that neither of those subs were anywhere close to being dialed in...

But it occurred to me as I was driving back to work....I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and acquaintances with decent home theater sound. Most don't have anything at all. I have a buddy who has a nice front projection theater in his basement but for the sound which consists of a low-end Sony AVR, a hodge podge of old off-brand speakers, and an 8" Onkyo sub from a HTIB. I go there a few times a year to watch Bengals/Browns, the Super Bowl, and his annual Oscar party. But the wife and I quit watching movies there because the sound was godawful.

You go to Best Buy and either nothing is hooked up or its just boomy noise. I think one reason I have never owned a sub is because I'm subconsciously trained to believe it is not possible to achieve quality sound at home. Because I have never experienced it.

My next goal is to find some DIYers and home theater enthusiasts in the Dayton/Cinci area that would be willing to demo their systems and share their experience. I want to hear something that sounds amazing. I want to be inspired. Ultimately, I want to do this right so that when I have friends over to watch movies, it will be a memorable experience that melts their faces.

I'm supposed to go see the guy at a local retail who sold me my Paradigms 10 or 12 years ago about a subwoofer in about an hour. I talked to him on Saturday and he recommended the Def Tech Prosub 1000 for $499. I told him earlier today that my budget had a increased to $750 or $800 and he mentioned a Golden Ear 10" that he wants to demo for me. We'll see. I specifically asked him about SVS, HSU, and Outlaw because they're frequently recommended in my budget. I wasn't expecting a big thumbs up but at least he had heard of them. We'll see how the audition goes.

I realize I'm probably borderline crazy by fretting this decision so much. Most normal people would have bought a Polk sub at Best Buy, brought it home, plugged it in, turned all the dials to max. Sigh....