HTS Newbie - Aspiring DIY Speaker Seeks Advice

[JMROD1179]

Hello All,

After a few years of patiently waiting for the right time I am finally ready and moving forward to putting together a HTS.

I am a complete newbie. But for the last couple of weeks I have been reading through many DIY speaker and home theater websites including these forums
I am interested in building my own speakers. I plan, based on advice on many sites, to build a proven design to start. I have the interest at the moment to one day design my own speakers.

I am hoping to get feedback on the follow:

I am looking to build a system that is future friendly (4-8years?).

I plan to use it for 5.1 surround as well as music listening.

My budget is about $2.5k (less than $1k for the TV, probably $800ish 50”) for TV and sound and I am looking for the best sound from that budget. I would be willing to wait a couple of months to save up to add portions of the build to add another $500 to the budget. IN other words I would be willing to build or by some of the speaker in a couple of months.

Form the little I know it seems that I should go with a receiver plus 5.1 speaker setup. I am currently looking at the Onkyo TX-NR616. Without adding to much detail it seems many people are having problems with the HDMI outs. However it seems any problems encountered may be fixed with a firmware upgrade. Considering this receiver retails for $650 with a 2yr warranty and is on sale for $390 on at least two sites I feel it may be worth the risk for the value.

As for the speakers, I have no idea which I would like to build, but the Mini Statements seem interesting. My thinking is to put in a bit more money for the FRONT L/R speakers with less expensive center and surround. I feel doing so will give me a great sounding stereo for music listening and a great sounding 5.1 system.

I am also open to the option of upgrading the sound by adding an amplifier in the future if the receiver lacks. I understand electronics are not what they used to be but I am hoping to choose speaker that I can carry on for many years to come.

Once again, I do not at all claim to know what I am talking about. If my logic makes no sense please feel free to set me straight. All feedback is welcome.
Also, I am from southern California Riverside area. Is there anyone in the area willing to demo some of their DIY speakers?
Thanks in Advance.

 

[markw]

You ask a difficult question. Here's why.

Choose your speakers first. That should be your starting point. They haven't gone trough any revolutionary changes in my lifetime and I doubt they will for the rest of it either. Go for the best you can afford that sounds good to you. With DIY, the risk you run is that you might not be knocked out by the final product. In spite of all the reading you do and what others say about them, they don't have your ears in your environment.

Your speakers determine what receiver you will want/need to drive them. Without a clear direction here, recommending hardware is risky at best.

Additionally, hardware is "upgraded" every few months. If you buy brandy new today, it'll be replaced with a new latest/greatest by Easter but it's not as bad as it seems.

As for "future friendly", things change every year but most are in evolutionary, not revolutinary, features. Besides, who knows if any humongous, hanges will come about in that time.

For what it's worth, performance wise, no major changes have occurred, sound wise since 5.1 DD and DTS arrived in the scene 12 or so years ago. Yes, we have a few more channels and some new "lossless" codexs, but as for performance, it's been relatively stable.

You won't be suffering if you listened to a good DD/DTS system from 1998 today. Likewise, a good system today will probably still sound good after this country runs out of money.

If you buy a good tool to do the job, it'll do it for a long time. IF you buy a good comfortable car to take you from point A to point B today, with proper care it should do just as good a job in ten years. It may not impress others, but it'll do what you bought it for just as well as it did on day one.

People are still awed by my 9 year-old Denon driving a set of Athena speakers. It's not TOTL or the latest and greatest, but it still sounds pretty damn good.

As for video, don't rush to buy one. They displays keep on betting bigger, better, and cheaper. HDMI is the standard (sigh) and it looks like it'll be around for a while but, ya never know.

So, come to some decision on the speakers and we'll see what develops from there.

FWIW, you can see some of my old junk in the blue hyperlink in my sig line at the bottom of this post. They started out as good systems and grew an the technology changed. The newest things are the TV and Blu-ray player. Other things are over 20 years old.

 

[markw]

Oh, one final thougt...

As for the speakers, I have no idea which I would like to build, but the Mini Statements seem interesting. My thinking is to put in a bit more money for the FRONT L/R speakers with less expensive center and surround. I feel doing so will give me a great sounding stereo for music listening and a great sounding 5.1 system.

Note the bolded. Not really a good idea. The center should match the mains. That's called "timbre matching. Since most of the dialog in HT comes from there, you don't want to skimp on the quality.

As for timbre matching, look at it this way: You can play a note on a guitar. Now, you can play the same note on an oboe. While it's the same note, will they sound the same?

Try for the same manufacturer/line for the front three, at least.

But, for HT, you can skimp somewhat on the surrounds. They are mainly used for ambiance and sound effects anyway. But, for multi-channel music, it's nice of they timbre match the front three.

 

[JMROD1179]

MarkW,

Thank you for your reply. That’s the kind of guidance I was hoping for. You make sense. I think seeing the sale price on the Onkyo I mentioned in the original post made me think I could start from the receiver.

Choosing speakers seems like a daunting task for a couple of reasons. There seems to be countless DIY speaker designs out there. Secondly, as you mentioned, my choice in speakers will drive my choice in electronic equipment (funny, usually other way around huh?). So it looks this may be an iterative process to find a combination that will fit my budget.

I believe I have ran into a few site that have some information on speaker selection but do you have any recommendations on how to go about selecting speakers?

Again, I appreciate you feedback.

 

[markw]

Speaker shoppig is hard, particularly wen you can't hear them first.

For all the reading you can do, it all boils down to personal preference and, unlike electronics, you can;t really judge what you will like by reading about them. You've got to listen to them, and preferably in your home.

Wit electronics, their sound is so, so similar that you can do pretty well by carefully reading (and understanding) the specs and features available. That's why "we" can generally recommend a satisfying unit, assuming the poster posts all their requirements.

Speakers, OTOH, can look the same on paper but when you listen to them, they can sound totally different from one another. That doesn't mean one is good and the rest bad, it just shows that taste/personal preference plays a good part in the decision making process.

Now, one can purchase blindly without hearing them and will most likely be "blown away" with their purchase, particularly if it's their first major audio purchase, but when they go to another place and hear other speakers that cost about the same, that shine can quickly fade when/if they realize that the other speakers sound different and, gasp, possibly better! Don't worry. That's happened to lots of us.

Unfortunately, with DIY, there's no going back. You can't return them if they aren't all yoy hoped for. That's not to say it's a bad move, it's not, but it's best if you could hear the finished product first rather than depend on others opinions. They may all like blonds while you prefer brunettes.

Granted, a good, experienced speaker designer (pretty much a black art) can go into it pretty much knowing what to expect, but do we share is tastes?

That's the question that needs to be answered.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

We are at a good period in time to buy equipment IMO. You can buy receivers and TVs for relatively cheap that the technology will be acceptable to even an enthusiast for many years to come.

I also have equipment that is over 20 years old that brings me enjoyment to this day. (leave it alone Alex...)

Timbre match at least the front three speakers and then get a receiver that can drive them properly that also has all the features on it you need.

As for DIY I usually don't recommend that path to a newbie but if your heart is set on it I say go for it. There are many proven designs and even more very helpful people in the DIY crowd. You need to be honest with yourself and how these speakers will be used. I would also find a mentor or two but not ten if you know what I mean. The internet is full of people that don't now what they are doing and just want to spend others money.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

If you are interested in internet direct or DIY kit speakers I find it helpful to go listen to speakers in the stores and then ask forum members "what DIY kit sounds the most like..." or "I like the highs that speaker brand X produces but I want a less recessed midrange". It isn't going to be exact but you at least have a direction to go in if you can't hear them first.

 

[JMROD1179]

Yeah, the inablity to hear a speaker up front has complicated the selection. Thats why I am hoping to find someone in my area that would offer a demo.

I always assumed I would just get a HTIB. However most poeple in the HT community seem to have little respect for those packages and I wanted to get the most for my money as well as a quality system. So I decided to put together something myself.

I decided on the DIY route because I am very interested and excited to building speakers for myself. I have built a custom sub box for my car and as imperfect as it may be I am proud everytime I see or hear it. I thinking I will enjoy the process in general and look forward to the satisfaction that comes with the finished product. I have also been told and read on various sites that you can get a much better return on my money by building my own speakers than buying some.

I have thought of practicing a speaker build first by building a very inexpesive set of general purpose loud speakers. But I dont have anything to drive them with. Which is why I kind of like the idea of getting the reciever. I guess if I select my fronts and center I can select my electronic equipment and proceed with this DIY introduction path.

 

[JMROD1179]

If you are interested in internet direct or DIY kit speakers I find it helpful to go listen to speakers in the stores and then ask forum members "what DIY kit sounds the most like..." or "I like the highs that speaker brand X produces but I want a less recessed midrange". It isn't going to be exact but you at least have a direction to go in if you can't hear them first.

I was actually thinking about doing this. I think its a good idea.

 

[markw]

If you want my honest opinion...

Kudos for wanting to get into DIY. It's a good thing to do. But, very few come up with a great speaker on their first try. They start small and learn and grow.

Since yo want a good system, I'd start with some commercially available speakers now. They don't ave to be exorbitantly expensive. There's Some pretty durn good speakers available at some pretty reasonable prices. Many with free home trial offers as well. Build your system around them.

Now, start building your DIY projects, looking it as a hobby rather than a way to make your great speakers. Don't expect professional results right out of the starting gate.

You'll still have your good system and, when you finally make your "big" speakers, you'll already have your system ready to go. Odds are that by the time you make your DIY stuff that surpasses what's available commercially, technology will have taken a few steps forward.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your dreams, just putting it into perspective.

...just sayin'

 

[slipperybidness]

We are at a good period in time to buy equipment IMO. You can buy receivers and TVs for relatively cheap that the technology will be acceptable to even an enthusiast for many years to come.

I also have equipment that is over 20 years old that brings me enjoyment to this day. (leave it alone Alex...)

Timbre match at least the front three speakers and then get a receiver that can drive them properly that also has all the features on it you need.

As for DIY I usually don't recommend that path to a newbie but if your heart is set on it I say go for it. There are many proven designs and even more very helpful people in the DIY crowd. You need to be honest with yourself and how these speakers will be used. I would also find a mentor or two but not ten if you know what I mean. The internet is full of people that don't now what they are doing and just want to spend others money.

Ask 10 people, you will get 10 different answers. Find a few that know what they are doing, get their advice, and make what you feel is an informed decision.

 

[slipperybidness]

Kudos for wanting to get into DIY. It's a good thing to do. But, very few come up with a great speaker on their first try. They start small and learn and grow.

Since yo want a good system, I'd start with some commercially available speakers now. They don't ave to be exorbitantly expensive. There's Some pretty durn good speakers available at some pretty reasonable prices. Many with free home trial offers as well. Build your system around them.

Now, start building your DIY projects, looking it as a hobby rather than a way to make your great speakers. Don't expect professional results right out of the starting gate.

You'll still have your good system and, when you finally make your "big" speakers, you'll already have your system ready to go. Odds are that by the time you make your DIY stuff that surpasses what's available commercially, technology will have taken a few steps forward.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your dreams, just putting it into perspective.

...just sayin'

That's the key, keep it as a hobby, not work. If it's a hobby then it's fun. As soon as it becomes work....

 

[JMROD1179]

Thanks for the input.

So if I did decide to go with commerical speakers to start and do the DIY thing on the side, what speakers would you recommend? Assume I go with the Onkyo tx-nr616 or something in the same performance/price range.

 

[markw]

Thanks for the input.

So if I did decide to go with commerical speakers to start and do the DIY thing on the side, what speakers would you recommend? Assume I go with the Onkyo tx-nr616 or something in the same performance/price range.

Well, Ascend Acousticd (speakers) are a very good starting point. Others can/will chime in with their opinions as well.

There are many receiver brands out there. What, exactly, is it about the Onkyo that so fascinates you, that one in particular?

Personally, I've had very good luck with Denon and I would seriously consider Marantz (same owners, and I have several of their vintage units as well) when my 10 year-old Denon 2802 dies, hopefully many years from now.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

When you have 2.5k budget for the whole thing including TV ....
Not impossible, but a bit harder to work with....

Ascend Speakers , mentioned above, are a great choice, but might be a bit over your budget.

I highly recommend to check out Pioneer Speakers - 2011 models are frequently on sale at newegg, but 2012 models still very affordable and offer performance improvement over older models. Andrew Jones - Chief Speaker Designer for Pioneer and TAD Lab (which sell 100k speakers) went to great lengths to insure best possible quality at their price point.

Subwoofers - HSU (and Outlaw) , Rythmic and SVS are the brands I'd be looking
for example great deal on this sub:
STF-2 Subwoofer
Final decision will have to be based on a) (most important) Size of room (total open volume) and b) Your budget

Receiver - many people praise refub models from AC4L. Including Denon 1912 and Onkyo 709 are ones I recommend most often

TV choice will be yours, but I could not recommend enough a Plasma TV from Panasonic - ST30 are last year models - If you can find one - they usually sold at large discounts
I bought my TC-P55ST30 earlier this year for $980+$140 shipping (which I was able to refund due to several shipping issues)

I used decide.com alerts to get best price - Highly recommend to check them out.

 

[JMROD1179]

Well, Ascend Acousticd (speakers) are a very good starting point. Others can/will chime in with their opinions as well.

There are many receiver brands out there. What, exactly, is it about the Onkyo that so fascinates you, that one in particular?

Personally, I've had very good luck with Denon and I would seriously consider Marantz (same owners, and I have several of their vintage units as well) when my 10 year-old Denon 2802 dies, hopefully many years from now.

The main thing that facinates me about the Onkyo is that its currently on sale for $390 at a couple of sites. It retails at $650. So I feel three opportunity for great value at that price.

There is a DIY speaker set that catches my attention as a budget set, the TRITRIX. Has anyone heard these and how do they compare to the Ascend Acousticd being recommended?

 

[markw]

The main thing that facinates me about the Onkyo is that its currently on sale for $390 at a couple of sites. It retails at $650. So I feel three opportunity for great value at that price.

So, you're basing your decision purely on how much off list price you can get it for? That's it???

There is a DIY speaker set that catches my attention as a budget set, the TRITRIX. Has anyone heard these and how do they compare to the Ascend Acousticd being recommended?

Haven't heard 'rm. Maybe others have. Maybe even in an evironment where they could compare them, but I wouldn't count on it.

But, both have great reviews...

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

There is a DIY speaker set that catches my attention as a budget set, the TRITRIX. Has anyone heard these and how do they compare to the Ascend Acousticd being recommended?

Look for member Skyline_123 comments on these - decent kit, but they have their limits...

should be somewhere in this thread:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/68531-new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html

He built both Tritrix and ER18's (spoiler - the later is much better )

 

[JMROD1179]

When you have 2.5k budget for the whole thing including TV ....
Not impossible, but a bit harder to work with....

Ascend Speakers , mentioned above, are a great choice, but might be a bit over your budget.

I highly recommend to check out Pioneer Speakers - 2011 models are frequently on sale at newegg, but 2012 models still very affordable and offer performance improvement over older models. Andrew Jones - Chief Speaker Designer for Pioneer and TAD Lab (which sell 100k speakers) went to great lengths to insure best possible quality at their price point.

Subwoofers - HSU (and Outlaw) , Rythmic and SVS are the brands I'd be looking
for example great deal on this sub:
STF-2 Subwoofer
Final decision will have to be based on a) (most important) Size of room (total open volume) and b) Your budget

Receiver - many people praise refub models from AC4L. Including Denon 1912 and Onkyo 709 are ones I recommend most often

TV choice will be yours, but I could not recommend enough a Plasma TV from Panasonic - ST30 are last year models - If you can find one - they usually sold at large discounts
I bought my TC-P55ST30 earlier this year for $980+$140 shipping (which I was able to refund due to several shipping issues)

I used decide.com alerts to get best price - Highly recommend to check them out.

I know the budget is probably on the lows side. However, the only thing I own to compare to is a cheap $200 Panasonic HTIB I purchased in college. I was never impressed with it bit felt it was better than built in TV speakers.

I feel with this budget I should be able to get an awesome "my first" system. That will keep me happy for a while(Although I totally understand the upgraditis that take hold).

My living room is about 22'x22' with an adjacent kitchen that's seperated only by a 3 foot wall. So its a large open area.

I will defintely look into the suggested items.

 

[JMROD1179]

So, you're basing your decision purely on how much off list price you can get it for? That's it???

Haven't heard 'rm. Maybe others have. Maybe even in an evironment where they could compare them, but I wouldn't count on it.

But, both have great reviews...

No, not list price more so features for the sale price. I have not currently seen anything in the $400 price range with the stats of the Onkyo 616. I am not saying they dont exist, I just have not found any as of yet, but still looking.