tekton - the next big thing?

[whasaaaab]

That may not be the tweeter even though it sounds like that fuzzy sound is high pitched.

It sounds to me as if it could be woofer break up noise. I haven't heard these speakers so this is only an educated guess. But I've encountered it before in other speakers. Most people who hear this noise blame the tweeter when it really is coming from the woofer.

Every woofer makes some harsh sounding noise at higher frequencies. It comes when the woofer cone stops moving as a single piston, and starts to vibrate irregularly in different regions of the cone, and is called break up. Noise can also occur when a resonance develops between the cone material and the rubber surround, and this also occurs at high frequencies.

Metal woofers, as in the Monitor Audios, have been known to make especially noticeable break up noise. It's the job of the crossover to suppress break up noise, but I can think of more than a few examples that don't succeed at that.

If you go back to some earlier posts in this thread, I warned against that possibility with the Pendragons. Those 10" paper woofers will go into break up at a much lower frequency than the smaller metal MA woofers. However, paper woofers often don't sound as harsh as metal ones do when they go into break up. Generalizing can quickly get wrong. Suffice it to say, you should never hear a woofer in break up mode.

All this comes down to the crossover. The speaker designer must know at what frequency to cross over a woofer to avoid break up noise, while still maintaining a wide dispersion of sound. Then the designer must select a tweeter than can go low enough to blend well with the woofer. Its not a simple matter.

thats not it at all i think, i have went up close and listend to them and the noise was from the tweeters, its not a bad thing but there are a few songs and the dvorak SACD when the instruments blow loud and thats were the noise goes, if i turn the volume down then nothing its only when i guess the trumpets, tubs, trumbones blow very high. I did not here that with the PL300 lol of course i would not as well the sig8's and the 800's just perfect sound form those 3 speakers.

All in all love the sound of my first speaker system, i just know theres better and i want better

We will see how much the tv i get costs with my hook up, once that is over i will know how much i can soend on new tower and centre channel. When you might ask, that depends on sharp tv, samsung and lg..

 

[whasaaaab]

I have a picture of the silver oil capacitor upgrade its a big upgrade, I found it in another thread, another guy got the upgrade and said it was night and day, like someone lifted a Vail from over the pendragons.

So now the person who who received the picture is going to get the upgrade since he alreadty ordered it a month ago

What a huge difference I will post the link as well tomorrow

 

[TLS Guy]

The size is really what has me for the pendragons, i have always wanted big speakers that play amazing but with out the high price.

My monitor audios RS8's sound amazing with music, but sometimes when i listen to lets say dvorak SACD theres certain intrusments when played loud sounds like the tweeter really cant handle them theres a fuzzy sound. When the MA PL300 played SACD orchestra music it handled the high notes well no noise just crisp and clear.

I even had my tweeters replace for free of course to see if they were the problem, but they were not. My wife loves classical so i need speakers that play that and movies well.

I know i can just go out and buy paradigm sig8's or PL300 but i am just look for something different i guess, but big when people com eover they say wow those are big speakers, i have a big base ball and my speakers look small now

Now I am sure with the new RX or GX line with ribbon tweeters that solves the problem

That's one of the daftest posts we have had in a long time.

Choosing a speaker on size has no relevance to quality at all.

If your wife likes classical music, she will likely leave home if you get those pendragons.

Any paper cone of 10" size is going to break up badly in the midrange. In fact any 10" cone is not suitable for midrange duty, no matter what it is made of.

You just can not mate a couple of 10" cones with dome tweeters, and have accurate sound, it is impossible. The laws of physics do not allow it.

Classical music on a speaker designed like that will be excruciating.

The violins will shriek, the flutes will sound like penny whistles and the brass be horribly harsh.

Do your wife a favor and find speakers that have a nice smooth midrange response and power response with good dispersion.

If your budget is up to 9K you have a lot of good contenders.

If it was pop you are after, then the pendragons might satisfy some, as instrument speakers are designed like that. Instrument speakers almost always have large cones driven up far to high. That seems to be the sound the band people are after. However, an instrument is an instrument and not an accurate reproducer.

High fidelity speakers and instrument speakers have totally different design goals and are different applications.

Eminence make good value instrument speakers, and I use to use them, back when one of my sons was in high school and played bass. I designed and built some instrument speakers back then and used Eminence drivers.

I would never source drivers from them for a high fidelity set of speakers.

 

[whasaaaab]

That's one of the daftest posts we have had in a long time.

Choosing a speaker on size has no relevance to quality at all.

If your wife likes classical music, she will likely leave home if you get those pendragons.

Any paper cone of 10" size is going to break up badly in the midrange. In fact any 10" cone is not suitable for midrange duty, no matter what it is made of.

You just can not mate a couple of 10" cones with dome tweeters, and have accurate sound, it is impossible. The laws of physics do not allow it.

Classical music on a speaker designed like that will be excruciating.

The violins will shriek, the flutes will sound like penny whistles and the brass be horribly harsh.

Do your wife a favor and find speakers that have a nice smooth midrange response and power response with good dispersion.

If your budget is up to 9K you have a lot of good contenders.

If it was pop you are after, then the pendragons might satisfy some, as instrument speakers are designed like that. Instrument speakers almost always have large cones driven up far to high. That seems to be the sound the band people are after. However, an instrument is an instrument and not an accurate reproducer.

High fidelity speakers and instrument speakers have totally different design goals and are different applications.

Eminence make good value instrument speakers, and I use to use them, back when one of my sons was in high school and played bass. I designed and built some instrument speakers back then and used Eminence drivers.

I would never source drivers from them for a high fidelity set of speakers.

I know but you must have missed previousposts, the size is nice I love the look of the dragons and of coursebthe two rave reviews it received made me want them even more.

That said I wont buy a speakr for just how it looks I also listen to music various types, the only place I have heard not so good things abiut the dragons are from the experienced audiophiles like youselves from threads which is good for us less experienced ones.

But I still want to listen to it, everyone does its an intriguing speaker with tons of secrecy (NDA) ha ha ha

I will post the link and pic shortly but wow the sure size difference in capacitors is crazy. Maybe he designed themthat way, they will only sound good with the amazing outstanding miraculous the one and only mundorf silver oil upgrade lol

When time comes it will be fun what I end up with

 

[ski2xblack]

Don't confuse the transient shopper's high with long term fun. Long term fun is better served by understanding the fundamentals of speakers and room acoustics. With a little knowledge you'll recognize the snake oil and be able to avoid it, and you'll end up with a better product, better sound, and ultimately, more fun (measured by goosebumps, not how much you spent).

Take one factor you've mentioned as something that you find appealing, the sheer size of the Pendragon. Size is great, if you have the space to accomodate it and an enabling wife. In terms of speaker fundamentals, it gives you a bit more wiggle room when it comes to Hoffman's law, a better chance at deeper extension while maintaining sensitivity. That's reasonable. But in addition to the size of the cab, you must consider everything else that makes a good speaker. The dragons prioritize dynamic range over all other considerations. There are other offerings that share similar dynamic range, are huge enough to impress you, and don't fail on the basics. Audiokinesis. Pi. Geddes. Danley. Hell, Klipsch has been doing it for decades, and I would personally take an old pair of Cornwalls over new Pendragons without hesitation.

Without some knowledge to protect yourself, you'll end up walking out with a ball-sack for your trailer hitch rather than the supercharger for your engine. Don't get taken advantage of.

 

[jcl]

I have not found any large speakers for that price that are good and compare to the more exspensive ones. I have a budget of about $4000 i i want to spend less after the discount.

Any speaker costing $8000 would be a start i know of a couple good ones which would bring me down to about 4grand or so, but i want to spend less.

Then there are monitor audios new GX300 i have not heard them but all i a m hearing are good things about them that would bring me to about $2100 for them yep i have a great hook up.

if possible name some that i can check out.

Perhaps it would help if you would tell us what you have listened to that you didn't like. 8k is above my price point and I haven't spent much time listening in that range.

I have a older pair of VonSchweikert's VR-3's and I like them and they certainly have built some big speakers. I don't know how their current models stack up.

I've always been interested in Magnepan's, but have never had the room so have never owned them. If I had the room and budget I would check them out as well as the Quad ESLs.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Don't confuse the transient shopper's high with long term fun. Long term fun is better served by understanding the fundamentals of speakers and room acoustics. With a little knowledge you'll recognize the snake oil and be able to avoid it, and you'll end up with a better product, better sound, and ultimately, more fun (measured by goosebumps, not how much you spent).

I would say don't confuse long term fun with knowing about fundamentals and acoustics. Just look how horrible Bose is but thats not stopping people from having years of fun with them.

If he buys the Tektons and enjoys them thats all that matters right? If he likes them he probably won't care that you think they are snake oil or not designed right.

These may be god awful speakers or they may sound half decent or really good. Depending on your tastes in loudspeakers. Again I would have to say Gene is right in some previous threads about reserving judgment till you actually get a chance to hear them for yourself. Like he said keyboard commandos passing judgement on products they have no experience with. These may not pass as a speaker you think is designed right but until you sit down and listen to them its only guesses.

 

[GranteedEV]

I would never source drivers from them for a high fidelity set of speakers.

We're all free to our opinions, and maybe Eminence's best doesn't fit your personal criteria, but I certainly wouldn't have an issue with trying out this driver:

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

 

[Swerd]

These may be god awful speakers or they may sound half decent or really good. Depending on your tastes in loudspeakers. Again I would have to say Gene is right in some previous threads about reserving judgment till you actually get a chance to hear them for yourself. Like he said keyboard commandos passing judgement on products they have no experience with. These may not pass as a speaker you think is designed right but until you sit down and listen to them its only guesses.

But whasaaab did ask for our opinions. And what he got is a broad mix of opinions. None of them were based on direct experience because very few people have heard these speakers. That was understood from the beginning and several posters (myself included) took pains to point that out.

To say that you can judge a speaker only after hearing it suggests that any speaker design is as valid as any other design, no matter how many accepted design principles it follows or fails to follow. Based on that thinking, we might as well consider a guitar amplifier with several tweeters duck taped on top.

Dismissing these opinions as "keyboard commandos" is wrong. They were educated guesses based on the outward appearance of these speakers. Some one posted that the Pendragon woofers are run full range (without a low-pass filter) and the tweeters are filtered by a single capacitor rolling them in at about 8 kHz. This is critical info and I wish there was some way to verify this.

It doesn't take a whole lot of experience to guess that such a speaker design will be full of flaws serious enough to recommend that whasaaap avoid them altogether.

 

[whasaaaab]

I love all the info that we are all getting, its good to hear the bad and the good thats what these forums are all about. At least we have not had any rude or talking down comments that makeyou feel dumb or upset.

ok so it looks like the mundorf upgrade is the best one you can get in that category its the supreme silver oil not just the silver oil there is 2 or 3 options when buying it on line, and his price is about right from prices online. ok so here is the pic let the debate begin deending how much capacitors you need and add in some of his costs voila lol $750

I read many reviews today about the supreme oil cap there are the best out there they can cost over $200 deoending on the site all good reviews not one bad one i found at all, both from professional and consumers. I did remeber one think past converstaion i head on the what if hi fi forum, i was talking to guy about my system and he said one thing to me if i wanted to make the RS8's sound like the GS8 all i had to do was change the capacitor like he did yes it voids the warranty.

He did it on both his speakers and many others from that thread, the main difference from the rs to the gs was the capacitors they used and the tweeters, he sai it was abig difference so there might be some truth to this snake oil stuff. You want to know who told him to to do that as well a monitor audio rep i have not done it because mine are still under warranty but it was an interesting thing to hear.

price

Value /voltage DxL(mm) price ea
10µF/1000VDC 46 x 110 181.86


here is a link to 2 other thread about the dragons, even one of the reviewers comments again about the goodand the bad about the dragons

Tekton Design Mundorf Silver-Oil Capacitor Upgrade - Page 2

Tekton Pendragon .. calling Tonepub

 

[gtpsuper24]

But whasaaab did ask for our opinions. And what he got is a broad mix of opinions. None of them were based on direct experience because very few people have heard these speakers. That was understood from the beginning and several posters (myself included) took pains to point that out.

To say that you can judge a speaker only after hearing it suggests that any speaker design is as valid as any other design, no matter how many accepted design principles it follows or fails to follow. Based on that thinking, we might as well consider a guitar amplifier with several tweeters duck taped on top.

It doesn't take a whole lot of experience to guess that such a speaker design will be full of flaws serious enough to recommend that whasaaap avoid them altogether.

A lot of so called well designed looking speakers sound horrible, have horrible off axis responses, shrill sounding, overly bright, resessed midrange, bloated boomy bass. So what your saying is its better to recommend a speaker that looks like it was designed right over a speaker that may not be what you think is a well designed thought out speaker? So by your thinking its could be better to recommend a horrible sounding well designed looking speaker than one that could be good sounding but doesn't follow the general speaker design rule book? This isn't aimed at any one person but Gene has it right I guess in that the non stop bashing of products just cause it doesn't have the look someone thinks it should.

So really all the negative attention that Tekton receives I wouldn't be surprised if they don't want anything to do with Audioholics. Just cause of the harsh guesses people have made about the speakers on this forum.

How about reserving judgement until we actually evaluate and measure the thing or until you at least have the chance to hear it for yourself!

The problem is, a few keyboard commandos here that would NEVER be in the market for a sub like this have to pass judgement on the product b/c of price and no direct experience. The same thing happened when we reviewed the Paradigm Sub 2 and the Velodyne DD-18+. It leaves a bad taste is manufacturers mouths when you get forum responses like this. It's disheartening to hear manufacturers tell me they are cautious about sending us gear to review NOT b/c of our review style, but b/c of forum trolling that happens quite regularly on our site.

 

[whasaaaab]

its pretty much the same on the other threads on different sites too, good and bad comments, speculation etc...

go to the previous page for the picture of the upgrade

 

[GranteedEV]

A lot of so called well designed looking speakers sound horrible, have horrible off axis responses, shrill sounding, overly bright, resessed midrange, bloated boomy bass. So what your saying is its better to recommend a speaker that looks like it was designed right over a speaker that may not be what you think is a well designed thought out speaker? So by your thinking its could be better to recommend a horrible sounding well designed looking speaker than one that could be good sounding but doesn't follow the general speaker design rule book? This isn't aimed at any one person but Gene has it right I guess in that the non stop bashing of products just cause it doesn't have the look someone thinks it should.

In order for the something to be a good speaker, it

1) needs the driver cone breakup to be sufficiently suppressed. Normally this implies 24 to 40 db down in level, regardless of material. This is true for every speaker except for the occasional 3" full range where damped cone breakup is in the top octaves where our sensitivity is low. Certainly not in the 1khz to 6khz range where our ears are most sensitive to errors, or the 200hz to 1khz range where our brains are most familiar. The sound of the breakup may only be a "dulling" of the sound if it's a well-damped material, but that also means you've got the basic sound of a cheap computer speaker etc. Not exactly something you want to pay $2500 for...

2) needs an even off-axis radiation pattern. Let's use 360 degrees maximum to 90 degrees minimum, although good speakers will generally use pattern control methods on the tweeter if the woofer's dispersion will be nearing the 90-120 degree mark. If you don't do this you will have a gigantic peak in the sound power response, and this is especially a problem in the ear's most sensitive regions.

Now if you want the above, you will surely need to cross over below 1.4 khz. To keep a nice off-axis response with flush mount drivers you probably want to cross over an octave or two below that! 10" woofers tend to be in break up around 1.5-1.9khz or so.

So let's consider the sensitivity of the Pendragon - 98db

If you need 3 tweeters to get this sensitivity, and you don't want a 0.5 ohm impedance, you need probably three 8 ohm, or higher tweeters. They need to be around 89db/w each.

If you look at the Scanspeak 8330 for example, it is 92db/w/m above 2khz, but less below that number. An 8 ohm version would be 89db/2.83v/m for reference.

It's 86db/w/m @ 1khz already. Beyond that, even with three drivers you only have a total .6mm total excursion on hand. You can do the math - that might be plenty at 2khz, but if you want to cross it at 1khz, you're starting to get SPL limited which defeats much of the purpose of a 98db/w/m speaker. You also need impedance compensation as this driver's resonance starts to roll in at 2khz already.

It's safe to say that this tweeter wants a crossover around 2.5khz if I had to guess, and this midwoofer wants a crossover around 400hz. Even if you're generous and give both drivers an extra octave, that's still 800hz and 1.3khz.

Let's say you give the midwoofer an extra octave again, so now you've got a crossover at 1.4khz.

Now your off axis response is a gong show, with a 90 degree midrange and a 180 degree tweeter. I can't be the only one who sees this as problematic, and it has nothing to do with keyboard commando- ing. If response is flat, then the tweeter has essentially 4+ times the sound power being poured into the room. If the response is not flat, then it's a bad speaker.

As far as the quotes you pulled from Gene, they're unfortunate, but it's a free market. If Velodyne et al can't compete on the internet, then they shouldn't try to. Ultimately though, guys like Swerd and TLS Guy know what they're talking about. Their criticisms are valid, even if they're based on conjecture. The only way this speaker could be great is if this tweeter is 89db/w/m and has an F3 at around 500hz, and ridiculous amounts of linear excursion even with three of them, and you probably want to roll the outer tweeters off, at which point you need active EQ to fix the discrepancy in efficiency

 

[ousooner2]

Can't read the bottom cap, but the larger cap is a 10uF and the "silver oil" looks to be a .47uF (not sure here).

 

[jcl]

So what your saying is its better to recommend a speaker that looks like it was designed right over a speaker that may not be what you think is a well designed thought out speaker? So by your thinking its could be better to recommend a horrible sounding well designed looking speaker than one that could be good sounding but doesn't follow the general speaker design rule book?

I think you're a little off on this. People have not been recommending speakers because they look well designed. They have been recommending *against* the Tekton speakers because they look poorly designed.

 

[Swerd]

I looked at the crossover photo. It answers one major question but raises several more.

I expect that a commercial speaker maker would keep its crossover design details a trade secret. I'm surprised that a photo of this is published at all. But it reveals no critical details, so the photo may not matter.

The first answer it provides is that there is indeed a crossover in the Pendragon. But it looks like a high-pass filter meant for a tweeter or tweeters. The input + side begins with a capacitor (its value is not readable). That means it almost certainly must be a high-pass filter.

I don't see anything that resembles a low-pass filter for the woofers. It is possible that one does exist, and that the optional crossover exists only for the tweeters. But there is nothing to rule out the concern I and others expressed that the 10" woofers are driven into break-up without benefit of a low-pass filter.

On the two boards in the photo, the value of one other cap is 10 µF, but the other components are unmarked or unreadable. On the optional board, the Mundorf caps are very large and rated up to 600 VAC, which is unusually high. The Dayton cap on the standard board is probably rated at 250 VAC, which is usually more than adequate. The inductor coils look like they are wound with relatively thin wire, probably 18 g or smaller. For tweeters, that may not be a problem, but it is inconsistent with the idea of an optional high cost crossover board with premium cost parts.

The exact wiring path is not clear to me, but it looks like a 4th order high-pass filter with 2 caps in series with the tweeter or tweeters, and the inductor coils and resistors arranged in parallel. Perhaps there is a notch filter (inductor, resistor, and cap) run in parallel to the tweeter.

We know there are 3 tweeters in the Pendragon. Are they in parallel to each other, or in series? The crossover photo doesn't tell us about that. I'll take a guess that the tweeters are in parallel, but because I have never seen a crossover network for a speaker with more than one tweeter, I'm not at all sure about that.

Now, on to the big question. Is a pair of the optional boards worth $750? Are the standard and optional boards different designs with different component values, or are they the same design with more expensive parts? The photo doesn't answer that.

If the boards are of different design, and the optional board works better, why is the standard board offered at all?

If both boards are of the same design, the substitution of very expensive capacitors will not make an audible difference. This has been demonstrated more than once by groups of DIY speaker builders performing blind listening tests. I was part of one such test. Any claims that exotic capacitors alone make an audible improvement or even a discernible difference are wrong, and I'll stake my reputation on it.

 

[TLS Guy]

We're all free to our opinions, and maybe Eminence's best doesn't fit your personal criteria, but I certainly wouldn't have an issue with trying out this driver:

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

Nor would I for a big auditorium. However it is a big 12"speaker, with an Fs of 46 Hz. So I don't see where that speaker would be very useful in a domestic environment.

 

[TLS Guy]

I looked at the crossover photo. It answers one major question but raises several more.

I expect that a commercial speaker maker would keep its crossover design details a trade secret. I'm surprised that a photo of this is published at all. But it reveals no critical details, so the photo may not matter.

The first answer it provides is that there is indeed a crossover in the Pendragon. But it looks like a high-pass filter meant for a tweeter or tweeters. The input + side begins with a capacitor (its value is not readable). That means it almost certainly must be a high-pass filter.

I don't see anything that resembles a low-pass filter for the woofers. It is possible that one does exist, and that the optional crossover exists only for the tweeters. But there is nothing to rule out the concern I and others expressed that the 10" woofers are driven into break-up without benefit of a low-pass filter.

On the two boards in the photo, the value of one other cap is 10 µF, but the other components are unmarked or unreadable. On the optional board, the Mundorf caps are very large and rated up to 600 VAC, which is unusually high. The Dayton cap on the standard board is probably rated at 250 VAC, which is usually more than adequate. The inductor coils look like they are wound with relatively thin wire, probably 18 g or smaller. For tweeters, that may not be a problem, but it is inconsistent with the idea of an optional high cost crossover board with premium cost parts.

The exact wiring path is not clear to me, but it looks like a 4th order high-pass filter with 2 caps in series with the tweeter or tweeters, and the inductor coils and resistors arranged in parallel. Perhaps there is a notch filter (inductor, resistor, and cap) run in parallel to the tweeter.

We know there are 3 tweeters in the Pendragon. Are they in parallel to each other, or in series? The crossover photo doesn't tell us about that. I'll take a guess that the tweeters are in parallel, but because I have never seen a crossover network for a speaker with more than one tweeter, I'm not at all sure about that.

Now, on to the big question. Is a pair of the optional boards worth $750? Are the standard and optional boards different designs with different component values, or are they the same design with more expensive parts? The photo doesn't answer that.

If the boards are of different design, and the optional board works better, why is the standard board offered at all?

If both boards are of the same design, the substitution of very expensive capacitors will not make an audible difference. This has been demonstrated more than once by groups of DIY speaker builders performing blind listening tests. I was part of one such test. Any claims that exotic capacitors alone make an audible improvement or even a discernible difference are wrong, and I'll stake my reputation on it.

Both those crossovers are high pass filters to the tweeters.

The circuits are very strange. It is a very odd fourth order filter.

The first half section is standard.

However the second section has the inductor connected the "wrong side" of a zobel network which is across the tweeter input or inputs. One side of both inductors should normally go straight to ground.

There is also a resistor to pad output in series with the tweeter.

I have never seen anything like it, and the effect would be to grossly broaden the Q of the second section of the filter, to what end I have no clue.

Both boards have the same design, but it looks as if the values on the smaller board are much lower in value. Possible one or more tweeters are brought in at a much higher frequency.. My guess is that the middle tweeter crossover higher, but that is only a guess.

Construction looks like a poor high or middle school class project. Normally you put the axes of the inductors at right angles to prevent mutual induction.

I would bet design and construction skills are at par.

 

[slipperybidness]

Both those crossovers are high pass filters to the tweeters.

The circuits are very strange. It is a very odd fourth order filter.

The first half section is standard.

However the second section has the inductor connected the "wrong side" of a zobel network which is across the tweeter input or inputs. One side of both inductors should normally go straight to ground.

There is also a resistor to pad output in series with the tweeter.

I have never seen anything like it, and the effect would be to grossly broaden the Q of the second section of the filter, to what end I have no clue.

Both boards have the same design, but it looks as if the values on the smaller board are much lower in value. Possible one or more tweeters are brought in at a much higher frequency.. My guess is that the middle tweeter crossover higher, but that is only a guess.

Construction looks like a poor high or middle school class project. Normally you put the axes of the inductors at right angles to prevent mutual induction.

I would bet design and construction skills are at par.

Yup. Good eye on those inductors not being at right angles, certainly suspect from that if nothing else.

 

[whasaaaab]

If both boards are of the same design, the substitution of very expensive capacitors will not make an audible difference. This has been demonstrated more than once by groups of DIY speaker builders performing blind listening tests. I was part of one such test. Any claims that exotic capacitors alone make an audible improvement or even a discernible difference are wrong, and I'll stake my reputation on it.

I mentioned above that i did an extensive read on the net many different forums aboout the mondorf supreme silver oil caps, i look at professional and consumer reviews all good thing nothing negative about them at all except they they will improve the sound.

also when i did purchase my monito audio and had the tweeter issue i went on what if hi fi, a couple of peope told me to replace some compacitors to the ones used in the gs8 the gold line (jensen compacitors) and it will sound just like them.

a moitor audio rep told one of the guys to do this and they would see and even bigger improvement in sound quality. they even had the diagram o how to do it if i can find that thread ill show it.

Yourself an i think a couple others say it does nothing bu itt has to or they would not be selling so many or its some good brainwashing to fool millions of people buying these types of capacitors. it might not be an outstanding improvement but maybe what was just missing or refine something?

Where there measurements taken during that sound shoot out??

I went to the original site where i got the pic from here is what i got from the ones that were unreadable
Daton MPT 8.2uF 250V %5 AUDIO GRADE

THE SMAL ONE BOTTOM LEFT 2.2uF

TOP RIGHT
8.2uF = %2 1103
690VAC 1000VDC

The great capacitor shooout
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm#A

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm