More power = control?

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Hi there,

I've heard people often make the claim that more wattage equals better control of the woofer. Can anyone explain how that makes sense?

I understand that amplifier damping factor is often claimed to control or damp the cone, but at the same time I've heard people eschew the idea that high powered amps provide extra "grip", as it were.

I'm having a difficult time understanding how extra power can control the woofer cone in a speaker.

 

[moves]

I am learning here myself but I've heard that more power = better "control" of the peak levels that occur in music and action films.

I would also assume that if you have a subwoofer, your very low frequencies would not be affecting the subs in the speaker.

If you had so subwoofer, then I would think that yes.. more power will reproduce better bass as the lower frequencies require a lot of watts to reproduce.. Don't quote me on this 'cause I'm not expert. In fact, if someone can comment on this logic then that would be great.

 

[KEW]

I think this only makes sense in the context that if you don't have enough power for a specific situation (SPL, frequency, impedance, phase), you will have a loss of control.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

So the idea, in general, is meaningless marketing fluff. I've heard it so many times where people swear that more power gives more control over the woofer cones, more "grip", or whatever terminology you like.

 

[moves]

I posted an interesting article here that's wirth a read. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/81057-aquiring-hardware-tactics-time-hard-work.html

 

[mtrycrafts]

So the idea, in general, is meaningless marketing fluff. I've heard it so many times where people swear that more power gives more control over the woofer cones, more "grip", or whatever terminology you like.

Well, just think about it. If an input signal requires 50 watts of power to reproduce, what will a reserve 1000 watts do??? Nothing!
Yes, in effect the output impedance, lower the better, is what you need, to a certain level to matter.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'll also add to this conversation, that in terms of amps you want to see a big damping factor. The higher that number the better the amplifier is able to control the woofer's or midwoofer's cone movement. The correlation we see with this spec isn't between damping factor and WPC, but more often than not, damping factor and build quality of the amp.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

I'll also add to this conversation, that in terms of amps you want to see a big damping factor. The higher that number the better the amplifier is able to control the woofer's or midwoofer's cone movement.

Isn't the amps own damping factor largely irrelevant by the time the signal has passed through an actual speaker (crossover network, voice coil etc)?

 

[fuzz092888]

Yes and no, speaker damping factor is obviously the more important spec because if you don't have a speaker capable of delivering clean, accurate, and deep bass then no amplifier is going to help you do that.

IMO better amplifiers, better being a somewhat subjective measure on my part, tend to have a higher damping factor than those that I wasn't overly impressed with. I think it goes hand in hand with a better design and just better quality overall as well.

I have no science to back me up, these are just my subjective opinions based on my own listening and whether or not what I'm hearing is real or imagined, I like to see a high damping factor

 

[Steve81]

I have no science to back me up, these are just my subjective opinions based on my own listening and whether or not what I'm hearing is real or imagined, I like to see a high damping factor

Here's a little something about damping factor:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

So far as the damping of speaker transients is concerned, a DF of 20 or more will ensure that everything possible has been done - the rest is up to the loudspeaker.

Courtesy of Floyd Toole.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Steve, so then if I'm understanding things correctly, the control aspect that people mistakenly assume is related to wattage or damping factor (ie, the more power provides better "grip" over the cone) is really determined by the speakers own damping (suspension/surround, cabinet damping, VC inductance etc) and the rooms own damping (absorption)?

 

[Steve81]

Steve, so then if I'm understanding things correctly, the control aspect that people mistakenly assume is related to wattage or damping factor (ie, the more power provides better "grip" over the cone) is really determined by the speakers own damping (suspension/surround, cabinet damping, VC inductance etc) and the rooms own damping (absorption)?

Yes, based on the linked article, I'd say speaker design and the room have a lot more to do with the tightness of the sound being produced than whether the amplifiers damping factor is 100 or 500.

 

[Gordonj]

Yes, based on the linked article, I'd say speaker design and the room have a lot more to do with the tightness of the sound being produced than whether the amplifiers damping factor is 100 or 500.

The control of the speaker is relative. Meaning, does, as originally asked, wattage have anything to do with control? I would equate the wattage question to headroom. If your amp is not capable of providing the necessary wattage output for the listening level that you would like in your specific room and your specific speaker set up then you will loose clarity due to the lack of headroom. That lack of "clarity" will in turn create a harsh and even distorted sound as an amp tries to produce at levels that it is not capable of. If that is what you are saying is "control" then yes wattage has something to do with control.

As for damping factor, in the home HiFi there are some schools of thought regarding the importance of damping. I for one land on the side that damping factor plays a role in the control and clarity of speaker performance. Damping factor is simply the ratio of the load impedance (loudspeaker plus wire resistance) to the amplifiers internal output impedance. The damping factor of the amp acts as a short circuit to the speaker, controlling the overshoot or excursion of the speaker or driver(s).

Many people, when considering damping factor, forget about the role that wire plays in that calculation and they stop thinking about damping at the amp. For instance, if you have an amp that has a damping factor of roughly 100 and you connect a #16AWG speaker wire that is 50 feet in length ( a round trip of 100 feet) the wire resistance in effect is .4 ohms making the damping factor only 18 - considerably less then anticipated.

Having said all that, if you take a great sounding system and put it in a poor sounding room you have a poor sounding system.....

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The control of the speaker is relative.

You do get better control, but it is so very small and so very subtle.

********he*****he

I crack myself up.

 

[Gordonj]

You do get better control, but it is so very small and so very subtle.

********he*****he

I crack myself up.

"Your killing me smalls"....

 

[ahblaza]

You do get better control, but it is so very small and so very subtle.

********he*****he

I crack myself up.

YEAH and everyone else you're the best.............

 

[GranteedEV]

If your amp clips, you might hear it in high power transients, which usually correlate to bass frequencies.

If your amp doesn't clip, then you won't hear it.

At low levels, it's more about the amplifier biasing than the max wattage.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Amplifier biasing?

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

If amp damping is insignificant (as is often claimed), then what accounts for the improvements that people hear when changing their amps?

Like one individual changed his 125 watt power amp to a 250 watt, with a higher damping factor (claimed), and the change in sound was amazing. This is a hypothetical situation but it happens all the time. So the change is attributed to the damping factor and extra wattage, because that is exactly what the person would claim is the reason for the improved sound.

But is this really the case?

 

[PENG]

Like one individual changed his 125 watt power amp to a 250 watt, with a higher damping factor (claimed), and the change in sound was amazing. This is a hypothetical situation but it happens all the time.
But is this really the case?

There are many reasons why it happens all the time. For example, may be his/her amp(s)

1) Has damping factor too low (say <50) for their speaker/wiring system.
2) Cannot handle low impedance and/or phase angle so it cannot sustain the current required by the speaker on a moment by moment basis.
3) Low quality, i.e., high distortions of any sorts, subpar frequency response even under optimal conditions.
4) Poor conditions, i.e. aging electronic components, capacitors, high contact resistance (age, oxidation, loose etc.).
5) Not enough power for the demand (somewhat related to 2).
6) Placebo effect, the ones that costs more, heavier, better looking, or preceived ideas acquired from hearsays, brand recognition such as xyz has a warm/tube like sound, tend to sound better.
7) Exaggeration - people tend to use expressions such as day and night, amazing, jaw dropping, huge, in order to make their point, when the difference may be subtle but perhaps clearly audible.
8) Not volume match, even a 1 dB difference in volume level, while not clearly detectable, could make the louder one sound better.

IMHO, there are many more factors than listed above that could cause one amp sound better or worse than the other even when both have similar specs on paper, the last two probably are the major ones in most cases.