You have a nice little utopian view of what you'd like, Nemo. We all would like to see "peace on earth". But do try to look at reality and the fact that homo sapiens have battled and needed to defend themselves since we crawled out of the primordial slime.
And your military only gun ownership idea...I think that's exactly what they have planned in Syria...and the Congo...had in the German Democratic Party...and in dozens of dictatorships. Wanna live there? "Inalienable rights my rear end"?? You don't like free speech or freedom from illegal search and seizure, etc?
But I understand it's difficult to look logically at issues like this that strike personally at your life and loss of friendship.
You totally missed the point. Had you been reading all of my responses, you'd see that I'm in favor of gun ownership. BECAUSE, had everyone I known been ABLE to have a gun, those outcomes MAY have been preventable. My issue with that post was the Constitution and its phrasing of the line regarding the right to bear arms. And the fact that people like to believe they know for a fact what was on the minds of some sage white wealthy landowners from over 200 years ago. I pointed out a serious flaw in the logic of the Constitution, which is that a well regulated militia already exists and you can get your gun fix there. What you're saying is that the military is an agent only of the govt and that somehow a bunch of couch surfers with a home collection of firearms are going to stand up against said military. Yeah, sure. You're also saying that our military members are mindless drones that will be complicent in the oppression of this country's citizens at the behest of the govt. Interesting... so you'd trust the average every day Joe with a gun, but not the people who put their tails on the line for your freedom (correct me if I'm wrong but in previous posts you've been very pro-military and pro-foreign intervention in the name of national security).
You said I "drastically overestimate the common person in many ways..". I would counter that you drastically overestimate the common government official in many ways, including restraint in using any method available to maintain power once they have it. Considering the scandals of the fairly recent past, we do know they'll lie, cheat, steal, cover up, - almost anything to get or stay elected. Unfortunately, the "almost" gets smaller and smaller.
Hell no I don't, but did you read the end of my post? We, as a nation, will NEVER do anything about it. We watched our entire economy collapse while a small and select group walked away unscathed, and what did we do? Form picket lines? Make Facebook posts with funny pictures? As long as we are kept comfortable, the masses will never take action against the govt that will result in any real change. It's also because the two-party system has brainwashed pretty much everyone into becoming advocates of their own world view and see things as either supporting their world view or preventing the furthering of another world view. I'll repeat, revolution is for the desperate. The fact that we're sitting here having a conversation about it means we're pretty damn far off from that.
Hi Nemo,
As someone who lost his 30 year old best friend of childhood to a gun in the hand of a 14 year old drug dealer in NE Philly, I feel your pain. That being said I struggle with the gun law conversations. I don't trust the politicians to get it right and to do it for the right reasons. I don't want real world useful guns taken away from law abiding citizens.
Now for the part that stings... I believe there is always some collateral damage with such things and if we want what is best (with or without guns) for the U.S.A. as a whole we are going to end up paying a price...and that sucks.
Simple common sense laws that are enforced and not changed for political reasons are what is needed.
Good conversation guys. Both sides have their opinions. This is how it should be done. We should stop now before we screw it up.
R.I.P. Chuck.
Agreed, cept I think people are confusing what I'm saying. I already said I was in favor of gun ownership and that things like the theater massacre in Colorado are a cost of that freedom.
My point, simple and blank, is that many excuses for wanting gun rights are complete lies. We want to be able to defend ourselves from a corrupt govt, yet we don't do anything about that NOW as it is.
We also, along those lines, obviously believe our own fellow citizens who happen to be uniformed service members would turn against us when the tipping point between covert corruption and open oppression is reached.
Herein lies the problem I have with gun ownership, which is again a problem with the people. The city of Newark makes it nearly impossible for me to go get a gun permit. It's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for me to get a CCW permit here too. However, it's easy for a criminal to drive down to West Virginia, get himself a couple handguns and boxes of ammo, drive back up, and cause a lot of violent crime in my neighborhood. I'd love to be able to go get my gun permit and be able to defend myself. But it's not REALITY, although Tomorrow is convinced I have some utopian world view.
I've seen enough death and senseless violence to know that a world at "peace" is completely impossible, and if anything I've seen enough to believe that the world's people as a whole are incapable of peace or even simple tolerance. What I do see, though, is that it is going to take a far bigger and more destructive set of events for people to see the root of the problem. It's going to take a coordinated effort by a bunch of nutjobs all over the country and the death of thousands (911 did it) or hundreds of thousands (Hiroshima and Nagasaki did it) to galvanize a population into working for real change in the way things are.
You can have ALL the guns you want. I'm even in favor of you garaging an M1 Abrams, and I'll upgrade your fire control system in it to block 2 if you happen to get an A1 variant. You want a howitzer, more power to ya, I shout you a resounding "F YEAH". BUT, be aware that our system, as it is, will allow someone a lot less responsible and a lot more malicious to do the same. When the day comes that your house is leveled by said someone, or your family and everything you love is destroyed by said someone, just remember that this is what you wanted and you have no right to complain about the end result.
But using the excuses of "it's in the Constitution!" or "we need to be able to stop an oppresive govt!"? The Constitution also says we can be free of unreasonable search and seizures, but it happens all the time and no one revolts. Oh yeah, we had the LA riots in the 90s and the Newark riots in the 70s... both unjustified actions with no end result except a lot of theft and big clean up bills. It also said a trial by jury is preserved for any matter exceeding $20 (do you know how much that actually was worth in 18th century dollars?).
We could give US citizens as much hardware as they want, and the majority will still never openly revolt in a meaningful fashion. Particularly because I believe what some people are saying to an even greater extent than they do... those who run our nation, from its military to its economy, are smart and devious enough to keep the carrot dangled and ensure we never get motivated to take real action. Read previous post and my short rant about broadband internet and unlimited data plans.
Stick with a good, true, worthwhile argument for it. I want my guns for self-defense and because I like shooting things. Period. Not because I maintain some fiction in my head that I'm going to turn into William Wallace or Leonides when the govt gets out of control.
