Shooting at Dark Knight in CO. What is WRONG with some people?

[j_garcia]

I don't really know anything about police shots fired vs hits statistics, but one thing I can think of is that hand guns aren't all that accurate past 10-15 yards, especially the smaller caliber guns like the S&W .40s that the CHP carries, so the officer might not always be to blame. If I remember correctly, they have mandatory range time to keep proficiency with their firearms, but I don't know the frequency.

A good quality compact carry will be good to about 25 yards reliably with a target the size of a person IMO. A lesser quality firearm and yes, you'd be looking at maybe 15 yards max and hitting with accuracy. That will vary with experience though, and as was pointed out, it depends on the person, not what they do for a living.

Thanks to all in this thread. A good, intelligent, polite discussion!

I might have missed it being mentioned already, but I see another option to discuss. Non-lethal weapons. We're probably a long way off from public places deploying microwave systems, but if enough people had the means to deliver a debilitating but non-lethal attack from a standoff distance, perhaps it would have made a difference. Perhaps. I'll admit that I for one would (a) be scared s***less in a situation like that, and even if I got past that, I'd still be afraid to discharge my gun into a dark and smoky theater, but (b) I'd be less afraid of collateral damage if I was knew that I had a chance of stopping the person without killing someone else. I'm not an expert on what's out there in a easily-carried form factor (i.e. I'm not packing a shotgun with bean bags into a movie), but others here might be.

I agree with this, and in all but extreme situations like Aurora, I would say non lethal should be the FIRST response.

 

[GO-NAD!]

A couple of thoughts.....

You know that the bad guys will be armed. Are you more bothered by "potential", speculated accidents if the good guys are also armed ("presence of armed civilians") in order to protect themselves and others?

Just think of all the public gathering places in the country, 24/7/365. That is millions upon millions. So, the number of firearms required to be present in those places so that there are reasonable odds that an armed civlian would be present when somebody like Holmes comes along....well, that's a lot! My concern is that there would be so many out there that the odds of being shot by accident outway the odds of being shot by someone like Holmes!

Would you be more comfortable if gun and defense-specific training were mandatory for gun ownership? I wouldn't be opposed to that.

At least for handgun owners. I mean, you have to prove your ability to properly drive a car before your issued a licence for that. Even then, I'm not sure about carrying them around in public. Accidental discharges & mistaken shootings occur in the military and police. The possibility of thousands (millions?) of armed "amateurs"* on the streets is not comforting.

*My use of the word "amateur" is not meant to imply that civilian gun-owners are, by definition, not competent with the use of a firearm. It's just to distinguish them from people who are paid to carry them.

Lastly, I know a quick way to keep a couple thousand semi-auto ("assault" ) rifles from being exported from the U.S. But it involves no future idiotic ("anti-gun" motivated) plans from our POTUS and the Attorney General.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean.

Just curious...in what country do you live, G-N?

Seriously? Just look at my location.

We can buy handguns here, but the restrictions are pretty onerous. IIRC, you can only take it out of your house to go to a range and back. That's it. Don't even think about stopping for gas and milk on the way. In the house, it has to be locked up in a secure gun cabinet, with a trigger lock installed and the ammunition locked up separately. To make it a viable method of defense would require a lot of practice in getting it out and loaded.

 

[Tomorrow]

Just think of all the public gathering places in the country, 24/7/365. That is millions upon millions. So, the number of firearms required to be present in those places so that there are reasonable odds that an armed civlian would be present when somebody like Holmes comes along....well, that's a lot! My concern is that there would be so many out there that the odds of being shot by accident outway the odds of being shot by someone like Holmes!

As stated previously, you are speculating. All I can do is repeat that the research doesn't show this to be the case.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean.

Google the U.S. BATF operation "Fast and Furious". It is what is called a "gunwalking" operation. That will be fun reading for you. The U.S. government sold thousands of 'assault' rifles to Mexican drug cartels with the hope of tracking them used in crime...with the intention of proving that we need stricter gun controls in the U.S. (Predictably, they lost track of them.) When a U.S. Border Agent was killed with one of these BATF guns, the program became public and an embarrassment to the administration. The deaths of at least 150 Mexicans have been attributed to these guns. Obama's and USAG Holder's involvement/knowledge/lying about involvement is currently being investigated by the U.S. Congress.

Seriously? Just look at my location.

Doh!!

 

[Tomorrow]

Perhaps I'm looking at this issue from the perspective of living in a society that doesn't suffer from gun crime to the same extent as in the US. That has been changing in recent years though. More and more guns are being smuggled in from the US. So, although the overall crime rate is dropping, gun crime is almost unique in that it is rising. Still much lower than the US though...

Forget guns. Give you guys a hockey stick, and you turn into raving maniacs.

 

[3db]

Forget guns. Give you guys a hockey stick, and you turn into raving maniacs.

You make that sound like a bad thing. Aside from the occasional street riot, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[j_garcia]

Just think of all the public gathering places in the country, 24/7/365. That is millions upon millions. So, the number of firearms required to be present in those places so that there are reasonable odds that an armed civlian would be present when somebody like Holmes comes along....well, that's a lot! My concern is that there would be so many out there that the odds of being shot by accident outway the odds of being shot by someone like Holmes!

I disagree. Even an untrained, unskilled person carrying is LESS likely to open fire, though I agree that if this same person DOES open fire the results may be less than desirable, but IMO, it is far less likely that these people will actually draw and fire. Note too that "accidental" innocent bystander shootings do tend to occur mainly in areas of crime or as a result of crime(not entirely backed up by data, my observation); they are not just random occurrences that happen everywhere.

At least for handgun owners. I mean, you have to prove your ability to properly drive a car before your issued a licence for that. Even then, I'm not sure about carrying them around in public. Accidental discharges & mistaken shootings occur in the military and police. The possibility of thousands (millions?) of armed "amateurs"* on the streets is not comforting.

With all of the new safety features on guns (trigger/drop safety, magazine disconnect safety, grip safety, and combinations of those on many modern handguns), for so equipped firearms, has brought the number of accidental discharges down to miniscule numbers. As noted, this does not cover ALL firearms.

We can buy handguns here, but the restrictions are pretty onerous. IIRC, you can only take it out of your house to go to a range and back. That's it. Don't even think about stopping for gas and milk on the way. In the house, it has to be locked up in a secure gun cabinet, with a trigger lock installed and the ammunition locked up separately. To make it a viable method of defense would require a lot of practice in getting it out and loaded.

Similar for California, though a gun safe is not required. A gun lock IS required and you cannot purchase a handgun without also purchasing or providing a lock if one is not already included with it. The lock should be in place while the firearm is stored in your home and is required while transporting (or in a locked container).

 

[Tomorrow]

Similar for California, though a gun safe is not required. A gun lock IS required and you cannot purchase a handgun without also purchasing or providing a lock if one is not already included with it. The lock should be in place while the firearm is stored in your home and is required while transporting (or in a locked container).

Well, look at the bright side...a lock is easier to throw at that guy breaking into your house than it is to throw a safe! And also you no longer have to store your AR's in Arizona. Ridiculousity.

Signed,

ExCalifornicated

PS: Good points on handgun safety designs.

 

[j_garcia]

I don't lock the shotgun and it will be the first thing I reach for I read an article on home defense and it said one of the biggest deterrents can be that "click clack" sound of a pump shotgun. There's NO mistaking it, and people KNOW what that sound means.

 

[j_garcia]

OK, so now there are reports of someone suing the THEATER? Really? Someone dumber than the shooter?

On the GOOD side, there's this:

Colorado shooting victim

The doctor explains that Petra's brain has had from birth a small "defect" in it. It is a tiny channel of fluid running through her skull, like a tiny vein through marble, or a small hole in an oak board, winding from front to rear. Only a CAT scan would catch it, and Petra would have never noticed it.

But in Petra's case, the shotgun buck shot, maybe even the size used for deer hunting, enters her brain from the exact point of this defect. Like a marble through a small tube, the defect channels the bullet from Petra's nose through her brain. It turns slightly several times, and comes to rest at the rear of her brain. And in the process, the bullet misses all the vital areas of the brain. In many ways, it almost misses the brain itself. Like a giant BB though a straw created in Petra's brain before she was born, it follows the route of the defect. It is channeled in the least harmful way. A millimeter in any direction and the channel is missed. The brain is destroyed. Evil wins a round.

 

[CaliHwyPatrol]

The possibility of thousands (millions?) of armed "amateurs"* on the streets is not comforting.

You do realize that the United States was founded with this exact idea in mind, right?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The founders of this country wanted everyone to be armed to help ensure that the USA stays the USA.

I also agree that more training should be involved with owning a hand gun, but I don't think it should preclude someone from buying one. There are many training classes out there, it should be the gun owner's responsibility to seek them own for their own self betterment.

 

[CaliHwyPatrol]

A good quality compact carry will be good to about 25 yards reliably with a target the size of a person IMO. A lesser quality firearm and yes, you'd be looking at maybe 15 yards max and hitting with accuracy. That will vary with experience though, and as was pointed out, it depends on the person, not what they do for a living.



I agree with this, and in all but extreme situations like Aurora, I would say non lethal should be the FIRST response.

If someone is showing their entire person to you when shooting at them, they probably have it coming anyway.

 

[sholling]

I don't lock the shotgun and it will be the first thing I reach for I read an article on home defense and it said one of the biggest deterrents can be that "click clack" sound of a pump shotgun. There's NO mistaking it, and people KNOW what that sound means.

I know from experience that the sound does grab your undivided attention. I also know from experience that looking down the barrel feels like you're looking down a railroad tunnel . I've also looked down the barrel of a revolver that was in the hands of a gang member and while attention getting the effect just isn't the same.

I don't have pump shotguns but I took my Benelli M1 S90 to a defensive shotgun class about a year ago and it was a lot of fun. It was pretty wild learning to doubletap accurately with a semiauto 12ga . What was also a lot of fun was shoot/no-shoot handgun training. You have to analyze the situation, ascertain if there is a threat and if so who the threat is, and then act if (and only if) appropriate. Just to keep it interesting if you don't spot the threat and neutralize it before it neutralizes you you go home with multiple welts from a semiautomatic airgun firing multiple marble sized hard plastic balls traveling about 300fps. I've attended a couple of times and will again in a couple of months. A friend of mine travels all over the country proving training for law enforcement agencies and opens up everything except the shoot/no-shoot training to the public whenever he's in town. The shoot/no-shoot training is by invitation only.

 

[Soccerkid830]

I don't lock the shotgun and it will be the first thing I reach for I read an article on home defense and it said one of the biggest deterrents can be that "click clack" sound of a pump shotgun. There's NO mistaking it, and people KNOW what that sound means.

Working on a shotgun range for a bit over a year, you tend to get numb to the sound of a pump shotgun.

However, when this pump goes off somewhere it's not supposed to... Say inside the clubhouse. You better believe that everyone in there was getting ready to defend themselves in some sort of manner. Aside from that, the guy was told to leave after racking his gun inside the clubhouse. It wasn't loaded, but still. That's not something you do inside unless you're trying to intimidate..

 

[Rickster71]

Just think of all the public gathering places in the country, 24/7/365. That is millions upon millions. So, the number of firearms required to be present in those places so that there are reasonable odds that an armed civlian would be present when somebody like Holmes comes along....well, that's a lot! My concern is that there would be so many out there that the odds of being shot by accident outway the odds of being shot by someone like Holmes!

Women carry full-auto in Israel: Israeli Girls Go for window shopping with a gun - Travel Forum - Traveler Mania
It's an interesting litmus test; wonder what the crime rates are.

 

[3db]

You do realize that the United States was founded with this exact idea in mind, right?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The founders of this country wanted everyone to be armed to help ensure that the USA stays the USA.

I also agree that more training should be involved with owning a hand gun, but I don't think it should preclude someone from buying one. There are many training classes out there, it should be the gun owner's responsibility to seek them own for their own self betterment.

The US may have been founded on that but there was reason back then. It was called the British, now one of your biggest allies. Today that reason holds as much water as a rusted out water barrel; ie, there is no reason for it anymore. As a result, these events will continue unchecked and as sad as its for me to say, I know I will see many more of these in the future to come. What's even sadder about the whole thing is that the dead victims lost all their rights/freedoms and that fact gets missed by the living.

 

[CaliHwyPatrol]

No reason? That's a pretty false sense of security. What's your solution for stopping these things from happening?

 

[Matt34]

The US may have been founded on that but there was reason back then. It was called the British, now one of your biggest allies. Today that reason holds as much water as a rusted out water barrel; ie, there is no reason for it anymore. As a result, these events will continue unchecked and as sad as its for me to say, I know I will see many more of these in the future to come. What's even sadder about the whole thing is that the dead victims lost all their rights/freedoms and that fact gets missed by the living.

deterring tyrannical government

 

[Rickster71]

It's too bad the banning of guns is only a political agenda, and doesn't really have it's roots in public safety as some may think.

If guns never existed, we'd still be trying to deal with criminal intent.
That nut from Colorado could just as easily had Molotov cocktails and two super-soakers filled with gas.

 

[3db]

deterring tyrannical government

What?? You're going in to level the Congress and the Whitehouse?

Seriously, the tyrannical government are all offshore. That's why you have the armed forces to deal with this sort of thing. Arming civilians causes more problems at home than it does deter tyrannical governments.

 

[Tomorrow]

The US may have been founded on that but there was reason back then. It was called the British, now one of your biggest allies. Today that reason holds as much water as a rusted out water barrel; ie, there is no reason for it anymore. As a result, these events will continue unchecked and as sad as its for me to say, I know I will see many more of these in the future to come. What's even sadder about the whole thing is that the dead victims lost all their rights/freedoms and that fact gets missed by the living.

Sorry 3db, but your concept of American Civil Rights is way off base. The Second Amendment (Right to Bear Arms if you don't know), the one right after the 1st, Freedom of Speech, is in that spot for a reason. As Matt said, our right to possess firearms guarantees our freedom from despotic rule...British, radical Democrat or Republican, Canadian, Muslim, Catholic,...whatever tyrrany might befall the citizens of this country. If you think we, or you, or anyone anywhere in this world is not a potential subject to that kind of rule, you would be wrong. Ask any American how much trust they place in the "government" and you will see what I'm talking about.

Many, especially non-Americans, have been under tyrranical rule for so long that they don't recognize it, nor understand our Constitution. I've heard a lot of people try to argue that the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights is as outdated and full of dust and spiderwebs as a...."rusted out waterbarrel". Not true. It is a living document that made and keeps this country the strongest, most successful nation in the history of mankind.

Freedom is not defined by safety. I suggest you do a little reading about Ben Franklin, a great man, intellectual giant, and founding father of this country. He had this to say..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty."