The Crown XLS DriveCore Thread

[Gordonj]

There appears to be a spectrum of belief on this topic. Members like ADTG and DS-21 are at the all-properly-functioning-amps-are-commodities end of that spectrum, and you're way, way over at the other end. I think you're going to find yourself in somewhat lonely position on that spectrum in this forum.

Personally, I'm a little to the middle of ADTG and DS-21. I think there can be some subtly audible differences between properly functioning amplifiers, but I can't get on-board with your "very noticeable" assertion. Even 15 years ago, when I was farther towards the middle of the spectrum I always thought the differences were subtle. It was more of a listening fatigue thing in long sessions than being able to differentiate in A/B comparisons. I seem to be trending more to the ADTG/DS-21 end of the spectrum over time.

I agree to some extent. From my own experience I am in the camp that all electronic componets will, to some extent, "color" the sound that you are hearing. There is no " perfect " piece, it is all relative to your taste and what you are trying to do. Amplifiers are no exception.

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree to some extent. From my own experience I am in the camp that all electronic componets will, to some extent, "color" the sound that you are hearing. There is no " perfect " piece, it is all relative to your taste and what you are trying to do. Amplifiers are no exception.

Gordon

Even if they can reproduce the entire audio spectrum 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.5dB and produce the power output of 300wpc @ 0.5% THD, they will somehow "color" the audio signal just because?

That sounds ridiculous.

 

[Adam]

Even if an amp affected the sound, wouldn't a receiver's auto calibration correct for that along with room acoustics?

I'm just sitting here with my system off, listening to the sweet sounds of torroidal transformer hum. Uggg. Maybe I will get one of those Crowns.

 

[Gordonj]

Even if they can reproduce the entire audio spectrum 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.5dB and produce the power output of 300wpc @ 0.5% THD, they will somehow "color" the audio signal just because?

That sounds ridiculous.

A fun topic to be shared over a beer or some good wine for sure!

But yes as ridiculous as it may be or sound....

Gordon

 

[Gordonj]

Even if an amp affected the sound, wouldn't a receiver's auto calibration correct for that along with room acoustics?

I'm just sitting here with my system off, listening to the sweet sounds of torroidal transformer hum. Uggg. Maybe I will get one of those Crowns.

The " coloring " or lack thereof, of an amp or other component does not necessarily show up In the frequency curve of a system. Therefore, an equalizer can not adjust for it, just as an eq can not correct poor room acoustics....

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even if an amp affected the sound, wouldn't a receiver's auto calibration correct for that along with room acoustics?

I'm just sitting here with my system off, listening to the sweet sounds of torroidal transformer hum. Uggg. Maybe I will get one of those Crowns.

So you can actually hear that darn thing from where you sit?

If so, you have got to get a new amp.

If the amp is truly screwing around with the sound somehow, I don't think any EQ can fix that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A fun topic to be shared over a beer or some good wine for sure!

But yes as ridiculous as it may be or sound....

Gordon

If we were sitting in the same room, I would say, "You're nuts!"

There are 3 things in life I won't argue about: politics, religion, and amps.

 

[Gordonj]

If we were sitting in the same room, I would say, "You're nuts!"

There are 3 things in life I won't argue about: politics, religion, and amps.

I know you would

But that's the fun of it!!

Gordon

 

[Irvrobinson]

There are 3 things in life I won't argue about: politics, religion, and amps.

Liar, liar, pants on fire. You ARE arguing about amps. What's next, income tax policy and intelligent design?

 

[Adam]

So you can actually hear that darn thing from where you sit?

Oh, easily. I can here them when there's a quiet passage in a show. Why do you think that I drink so much?

 

[jinjuku]

In a world where engineers can fit billions of transistors on a 28nm die running at the GigaHertz range and sell this piece of silicon for $99.

Well the output stage, biasing, power supply design and topology are well understood and commodity parts.

One of the things I never hear is what problems these guys that are selling amps from $10K to $80K are actually solving. Now with Class D the last two major problem areas have been solved: Weight and Efficiency.

When I had my Parasounds I offered umpteen people that they could come out and if they could pick the Parasound vs my XLS 402D ($179 new) stone cold 9 out of 10 flips of the coin they could have the Parasound. I even offered to cover air fair and accommodations if they could.

I've offered to send people burned in interconnects and non-burned in and $100. Randomly label the cables and if they could after 30 days without me looking over their shoulder, they could listen as long as they like etc. Nothing just a bunch of idiots back peddling.

I know Gene can tell the difference from I believe a particular Class D amp and better bass reproduction. Interesting thing to look at is graphene based super capacitors. They can have up to, I believe, a 100X increase in the speed of both charge and energy release.

The Peavey IPR1600 actually has a custom, no label, ultracapacitor.

 

[GranteedEV]

The " coloring " or lack thereof, of an amp or other component does not necessarily show up In the frequency curve of a system.

sure, but then where does it show up?

Therefore, an equalizer can not adjust for it, just as an eq can not correct poor room acoustics....

You're not seriously comparing the many dimensions involved in room acoustic with the virtually one (two?) dimension(s?) pertaining to amplifiers, are you?

 

[Gordonj]

One of the things I never hear is what problems these guys that are selling amps from $10K to $80K are actually solving. Now with Class D the last two major problem areas have been solved: Weight and Efficiency.

Oh I agree! I am not saying to buy that price tag of an amp or that i even would....

 

[Gordonj]

sure, but then where does it show up?



You're not seriously comparing the many dimensions involved in room acoustic with the virtually one (two?) dimension(s?) pertaining to amplifiers, are you?

It shows up no different then a dome tweeter vs a ribbon tweeter. Both can produce the same freq. response (in the audioable spectrum) but they sound different....

And no. All I was saying is that an EQ or DSP can not correct room acoustic issues. I am not comparing the two at all. I am saying that many people think that an EQ can correct for poor room response, it can not. Just as an electronic device adds or subtracts from the signal that is passed through it, including amps...

Gordon

 

[Irvrobinson]

In a world where engineers can fit billions of transistors on a 28nm die running at the GigaHertz range and sell this piece of silicon for $99.

[snip]

I know Gene can tell the difference from I believe a particular Class D amp and better bass reproduction.

[snip]

The Peavey IPR1600 actually has a custom, no label, ultracapacitor.

Chip design and fabrication are wonderful things, but I'm not seeing the analogy between high performance CPUs or GPUs (if that's what you're referring to) and audio amplifiers. It comes off a little like the old "if they can send a man to the moon..." statements people used to make in the '70s.

I've read Gene's reviews, and he does occasionally comment about audible differences between amplifiers. You "know" he can differentiate how?

As an aside, one of the things I've always wondered about with these ultra-power amps is where they get the electrical power from to reach their rated outputs. One of the Peaveys is rated at 3750wx2 into 2 ohms. Even at 90% efficiency I wonder where it gets over 7000 watts from? A 240v line?

 

[jinjuku]

Chip design and fabrication are wonderful things, but I'm not seeing the analogy between high performance CPUs or GPUs (if that's what you're referring to) and audio amplifiers. It comes off a little like the old "if they can send a man to the moon..." statements people used to make in the '70s.

It goes back to my original question: What problems are the guys designing $10-$80K amps solving?

If other industries have figured out transistors that can operate at a frequency in the Gigahertz range, get them scaled down to 32 and 28nm process, pile them on by the Billions I'm sure amplifier and pre-amp design seem absolutely paleolithic in that regard.

I've read Gene's reviews, and he does occasionally comment about audible differences between amplifiers. You "know" he can differentiate how?

Here is the difference: On the one occasion that I read I would feel confident that Gene wouldn't have a problem with a SBT of it. That's all I would ever need from say a cable burn-in proponent. But yet when it comes to walking the walk they are just all so much hot air.

As an aside, one of the things I've always wondered about with these ultra-power amps is where they get the electrical power from to reach their rated outputs. One of the Peaveys is rated at 3750wx2 into 2 ohms. Even at 90% efficiency I wonder where it gets over 7000 watts from? A 240v line?

Capacitance for starters. Just like your car doesn't need to be connected to 440 3 phase to generated peak 400 CCA's. It has a battery for that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Liar, liar, pants on fire. You ARE arguing about amps. What's next, income tax policy and intelligent design?

Oh, no, I was just stating my position on the issue. It's fine with me if others believe they can tell the difference between every amp. They can believe wires sound differently too if they please.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh, easily. I can here them when there's a quiet passage in a show. Why do you think that I drink so much?

Oh, dear, you must buy the XLS 1500 at Guitar Center.

Use the coupon code: MDAY15 and get 15% off. It expires today. So that's $52 off the $349.99 price = $297.50. But it expires today.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All I was saying is that an EQ or DSP can not correct room acoustic issues.

Okay, I agree with you there.

 

[Irvrobinson]

It goes back to my original question: What problems are the guys designing $10-$80K amps solving?

If other industries have figured out transistors that can operate at a frequency in the Gigahertz range, get them scaled down to 32 and 28nm process, pile them on by the Billions I'm sure amplifier and pre-amp design seem absolutely paleolithic in that regard.

I must be really bored to argue with you about this, but the total amount of R&D going into chip development is in the tens of billions of dollars per year. I would guess that some of that R&D is what's making Class D amplifiers practical. It certainly has made audio DACs a commodity. But amplifiers are a current problem.

Here is the difference: On the one occasion that I read I would feel confident that Gene wouldn't have a problem with a SBT of it. That's all I would ever need from say a cable burn-in proponent. But yet when it comes to walking the walk they are just all so much hot air.

I wouldn't have a problem with an SBT either, I'd just probably fail, and I still have lingering feelings that there are audible differences between some amps. As for cable burn-in, or any cable issue for that matter, why torment the dumb and stupid among us?

Capacitance for starters. Just like your car doesn't need to be connected to 440 3 phase to generated peak 400 CCA's. It has a battery for that.

Automobile amperes are at 14v or so. Watts are watts.