The Crown XLS DriveCore Thread

[Irvrobinson]

technically it does

Please enlighten us, Obi Wan...

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't consider a 2RU 2-channel amp particularly compact, though the Crowns are fairly shallow at least.

Oh what a difference in perspective. Compared to the 100lb++ ATI AT3005 they look positively lilliputian!

 

[Gordonj]

I have to admit that this conversation regarding Crown XLS and CT amps and the like fascinates me. In the world I work in (high end pro audio) we would not even consider using these amps. We would be looking at the higher end touring/performance range. Why? Because there is a big difference in the sound quality of the amps you are talking about and the touring class - big difference and a big difference in performance.


It is a very interesting post.

Gordon

 

[jinjuku]

I've worked with almost every amp in the Crown and QSC line up and would have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

This is coming from a guy that absolutely loved the Macro-Tech and iTech lineup from Crown. Also the big bruisers from QSC the PLX series.

I don't know if the XLS's are touring grade. But touring grade simply means you can beat the crap out of them, drop them off the back up a truck, pick them up and plug in and go.

You wouldn't believe how many of these amps I have seen with a bent rack ear from being dropped or a dented corner.

 

[Irvrobinson]

there is a big difference in the sound quality of the amps you are talking about and the touring class - big difference and a big difference in performance. Gordon

Now you've stepped in it! Don't you know where you are?

Which high-end pro audio venues do you think would reveal differences in sound quality?

 

[fuzz092888]

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, but since we're talking about crown may I throw out a quick question? Any thoughts on the crown macro reference?

 

[jinjuku]

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, but since we're talking about crown may I throw out a quick question? Any thoughts on the crown macro reference?

Killer amp. Absolutely bullet proof. High S/N ratio. A pro audio amp that even an audiophile could love. They will gobble power however. I've seen people drop 30 amp circuits for the 2400.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Because there is a big difference in the sound quality of the amps...

Maybe if you are playing a105dB music concert on the football field and one amp is clipping/ distorting to keep up.

But it has been proven time and time again that if you play the amps within their capacity, they will not have a sound of their own if they measure similarly.

That is why my $22,000 Revel Salon 2 sound the same on a $3,000 AT3000 amp vs a $500 Crown XLS amp. It tells me the Crown XLS sounds EXACTLY the same as the much more expensive ATI amps (which are the OEM of the $7,000 Lexicon 300wpc amp).

Irvrobinson can tell you his $3K ATI amp sounds at least as good as his $20K Mark Levinson amps.

So cost and status means nothing when it comes to amps or speakers - it's about performance. Well, okay, aesthetics too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now you've stepped in it! Don't you know where you are?

Which high-end pro audio venues do you think would reveal differences in sound quality?

And we better see a SNR of -130dB and Crosstalk of -120dB like Mark Levinson and Krell.

Because if the SNR of these "better sounding" amps are -105dB and XTalk of -85dB, we will have no choice but to laugh out loud.

 

[DS-21]

Oh what a difference in perspective. Compared to the 100lb++ ATI AT3005 they look positively lilliputian!

True. And in terms of mass the contrast is obvious. But in terms of frontal area and to a lesser extent volume it's not quite as clear-cut.

Per their website, an AT3005 is narrower than a standard amp (listed at 17"; a standard rack amp is 19" wide), 5RU high, and 18" deep. Ignoring depth for a moment, that means that five channels of XLS amp will have a larger frontal area, as five XLS channels will be 2" wider and 1RU taller. Though counting depth overall cubic volume will still be greater for the ATI: ~1.5 cubic feet for the 3005, ~0.9 cubic feet for the XLS1000/1500, and ~1.25 cubic feet for the XLS2000/2500.

Obviously, for two channels the Crown is a lot smaller than the AT3002. But for seven channels the AT3007 will be a fair bit more compact than four XLS amps. Like you, presumably, I'd still rather move the four XLS amps, even at once, than the ATI monster!

I have to admit that this conversation regarding Crown XLS and CT amps and the like fascinates me. In the world I work in (high end pro audio) we would not even consider using these amps. We would be looking at the higher end touring/performance range. Why? Because there is a big difference in the sound quality of the amps you are talking about and the touring class - big difference and a big difference in performance.

Yeah. Nobody's going to run a stadium system, or even a medium-sized music performance venue, off of XLS DriveCore or Peavey IPR/Crest ProLite amps. The more expensive amps have a lot more power, and also in the modern age DSP control/monitoring functions that are very useful when running huge speakers and/or line arrays to provide sound coverage for a huge area.

But for home use, those things are a lot less important. And, in fact, the bigger amps may not be as good, simply because they have so much gain that they hiss at short listening distances.

I'm curious, given the context, what you think of the EV amps. (If anything.) I'm very impressed with the CPS 8.5 as an amp to drive multiple subwoofers. I have no idea how it would perform as a touring amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's really cool being able to hold a 2400watts/4ohm amp (XLS2500 bridged mono) in just one hand and wave it around in the air.

 

[Gordonj]

I've worked with almost every amp in the Crown and QSC line up and would have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I don't know if the XLS's are touring grade. But touring grade simply means you can beat the crap out of them, drop them off the back up a truck, pick them up and plug in and go.

I too have used them all from QC, Crown, Lab Gruppen, Power Soft, Martin, EV, you name it I have used them and been around them. But there is still a difference between a $10k amp and a $300 amp. A touring grade amp is more then rack ears or the ability to take a beating. The tour grade amps can put out more continually, have big power supplies, better front ends, take the peaks better have better reserve power, etc etc etc.

I have been in many A/B tests and I can tell you there is a difference between amp lines and amp manufactures each one has a different tonal character to the sound and each one handles the loads differently. Can i say that you would hear that difference in a home environment? No probably not, but it is there none-the-less.

Gordon

 

[Gordonj]

Maybe if you are playing a105dB music concert on the football field and one amp is clipping/ distorting to keep up.

But it has been proven time and time again that if you play the amps within their capacity, they will not have a sound of their own if they measure similarly.

That is why my $22,000 Revel Salon 2 sound the same on a $3,000 AT3000 amp vs a $500 Crown XLS amp. It tells me the Crown XLS sounds EXACTLY the same as the much more expensive ATI amps (which are the OEM of the $7,000 Lexicon 300wpc amp).

Irvrobinson can tell you his $3K ATI amp sounds at least as good as his $20K Mark Levinson amps.

So cost and status means nothing when it comes to amps or speakers - it's about performance. Well, okay, aesthetics too.

I have been in many an A/B amp shot out and I can t tell you that there is a difference in what an amp is doing to the signal that is being passed through it. In some cases it is very noticeable. Some do better with the LF some with the HF are better but each one colors the sound to some degree. On paper an amp should not alter or "color" the sound at all but they do to some degree. And to say that a $300 amp sounds just as good as a $20k amp would be misleading.

Gordon

 

[Gordonj]

I'm curious, given the context, what you think of the EV amps. (If anything.) I'm very impressed with the CPS 8.5 as an amp to drive multiple subwoofers. I have no idea how it would perform as a touring amp.

EV has always made good amps. They "own" less of the touring market then others but they still make good amps. The CPS are good amps and work very well and I am sure you would not go wrong with using them in your system (lots and lots of head room for subs) and that is a great thing.

If you want to get into that class of amp i would look also at the Lab Gruppen amp line (great stuff) any of the models they have are excellent

Home | Lab.gruppen

And if you want to go crazy the Powersoft line is taking the world by storm right now - their LF control is fantastic.

Powersoft - Home

Have fun!

Gordon




Gordon

 

[jinjuku]

I too have used them all from QC, Crown, Lab Gruppen, Power Soft, Martin, EV, you name it I have used them and been around them. But there is still a difference between a $10k amp and a $300 amp. A touring grade amp is more then rack ears or the ability to take a beating. The tour grade amps can put out more continually, have big power supplies, better front ends, take the peaks better have better reserve power, etc etc etc.

I have been in many A/B tests and I can tell you there is a difference between amp lines and amp manufactures each one has a different tonal character to the sound and each one handles the loads differently. Can i say that you would hear that difference in a home environment? No probably not, but it is there none-the-less.

Gordon

What other environment are we discussing here? The next really cool feature is the look ahead digital feedback feature in the high end Lab Gruppens.

I spent 7 solid years in A/V (from Edit Suites to mid sized venues (10K seats). I still sub contract every now and again when my former boss needs an extra hand so I still get to play with the goodies. Including fully user defined mixing consoles with touch sensitive displays (slick stuff).

I'm not debating the difference inherent in a Macro Tech HD vs an XLS when it comes to ruggedness and ability to deliver on demanding, low impedance, reactive loads.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have been in many an A/B amp shot out and I can t tell you that there is a difference in what an amp is doing to the signal that is being passed through it. In some cases it is very noticeable. Some do better with the LF some with the HF are better but each one colors the sound to some degree. On paper an amp should not alter or "color" the sound at all but they do to some degree. And to say that a $300 amp sounds just as good as a $20k amp would be misleading.

Gordon

There appears to be a spectrum of belief on this topic. Members like ADTG and DS-21 are at the all-properly-functioning-amps-are-commodities end of that spectrum, and you're way, way over at the other end. I think you're going to find yourself in somewhat lonely position on that spectrum in this forum.

Personally, I'm a little to the middle of ADTG and DS-21. I think there can be some subtly audible differences between properly functioning amplifiers, but I can't get on-board with your "very noticeable" assertion. Even 15 years ago, when I was farther towards the middle of the spectrum I always thought the differences were subtle. It was more of a listening fatigue thing in long sessions than being able to differentiate in A/B comparisons. I seem to be trending more to the ADTG/DS-21 end of the spectrum over time.

ADTG is correct, though. I find my ATI AT3000 to sound better than my previous Levinson amps. Better in terms of complete electrical silence, and 4-5db more power, which is important for my speakers and listening habits. Taken as a whole the ATI is superior to the Levinsons.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have been in many an A/B amp shot out [
quote]

Yep, not all A/B shootouts are created equal or has equal merit.

... And to say that a $300 amp sounds just as good as a $20k amp would be misleading.

Gordon

Well, some self proclaimed 'golden ears,' Steve Zipser and friends come to mind, fell flat on their faces trying to differentiate a $300 Yamaha integrated and a pair of $15k monoblock Pass Aleph 1.2 on their own high end system. Oh, yes, it was double blind and levels matched A/B

 

[jinjuku]

I find it hilarious that people can be separated from their cash with expensive interconnects and amplification.

But when I give them a chance to take my $$ in the form of a bet (like cable burn in proponents) I can't give it away.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I find it hilarious that people can be separated from their cash with expensive interconnects and amplification.

But when I give them a chance to take my $$ in the form of a bet (like cable burn in proponents) I can't give it away.

Oh that's easy. Spend money on a tangible audio thing and you get the thing, even if you can't hear a difference between it and a thing that costs only 10% as much. Plus, the expensive thing probably looks and feels good to boot. Take the bet, and if you can't tell the difference you're out the money and your pride.

 

[Gordonj]

I find it hilarious that people can be separated from their cash with expensive interconnects and amplification.

But when I give them a chance to take my $$ in the form of a bet (like cable burn in proponents) I can't give it away.

I agree. There is a pint of diminishing returns for sure on any product and I guess it is all relative to what the buyer finds important.