Vinyl News

[3db]

A Chicago based turntable company, Sota

SOTA Nova Turntable


and another review on the "Spin Clean system.


Spin Clean Record (LP) Washer MK II

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

a). Is true, however, I think newer media can and do sound better.

b). You can still buy physical media, and that is also tangible.

c). If it is a ritual you want; go to church!

d). This is definitely true, but you can download the notes of downloadable media.

I don't see that this is reason enough to create this huge bubble. Like all economic bubbles this one will also end in tears, especially those making huge investments on the production end.

I think this is hype driven, and has all the attributes of economic bubbles. One thing they all have in common is lack of sound analysis and reasoning. At their heart is the creation of unsustainable demand and rising prices. This in my view is really starting to take off in the analog world.

This whole analog thing is very much hot air, and not engineering and science driven.

TLS GUY, You can BELIEVE what YOU want but that does not make what you say correct.

My responses.

a) If you wish to believe new media can sound better, so be it for you. All too many including many more critical, with better tuned hearing and enthusiastic listeners will argue that new media does not guarantee better sound. High Rez maybe and more so maybe it sounds just different but not guaranteed better.

b) Physical media is tangible and no argument there however a 5 inch CD liner notes is NOT the same as a 12 inch record sleeve and more so a gate-folded record sleeves. It's like having your mom put in a cheap frame on the wall that 8x10 Sears portrait of you maybe as a snot nosed kid as opposed to a 24x30/30x40 classic wall portrait. Or if you are not into photos that yard sale 8x10 painting framed vs a 24x36 framed classic painting.

c) Rituals are more than religion my myopic forum poster here. Being human has most if not all of us adopt some forms of rituals religious or otherwise. Pulling out an LP from your hopefully cherished collection and doing all the steps to get it playing is not just a ritual but a right of passage so to speak to know for the next 20 odd min. you will be able to sit down and JUST LISTEN in hopeful sonic bliss before you need to turn it over. There is no ants in your pants sitting like digital and worse click-able downloads can lead one too where you play 45 seconds of a track and as if ADHD is kicking in skip to the next and then listen to that for maybe 45-50 seconds.

d) Yes you can download notes an image art but honestly most digital only users probably NEVER DO let alone print them out or even bother to look at them in detail on a computer monitor or t.v. screen. Image of a screen art is not the same as a real one IN YOUR HAND, be it a vinyl cover, a book or a magazine. Ebooks are not the same, online mags are not and neither is cover art. They are all fine choices but not as cool nor as real to the human being touchy, feely ideals.

Vinyl is NOT a bubble in creation. It's not ballooning like other bubbles have and do in life. It's a progression or understanding to the return of a media that is timeless and has a value that the digital music world (notably downloads) cannot fulfill. It's not for everyone and it likely will not regain it hey day status. Obviously you have no care, nor a bother to gain an understanding of this. Vinyl is for those who want another real media that offers in most cases a superior sound quality and a more enjoyable experience not just in sound but in visual appeal and even the hunt or looking for LP's to collect, own and play.

Turntables are also JUST COOL. They each impart a flavour of sound and mechanical design that has a uniqueness that each manufacturer puts into R&D and sales. This makes them a cool component to a real hi-fi buff's system. CD players though are fine and I am not anti-CD, never found that and music downloads NEVER WILL! Friends who come over will NOT likely see nor strike up a conversation over your CD player or worse the computer device or media streamer you use to play music. But if you have a turntable especially a visually appealing one, it will bring forward a conversation. So too will a shelf or book case filled with LP's. Your virtual files on the HD wont.

My beef with those who bash vinyl are that you have often a short sighted view of this media and its current improving fortunes as well as often most vinyl bashers have little or no credible experience as to how good it can be sonically and how fun it can be to collect and keep. You all too often see vinyl bashers ignorantly whine for the sake just *****in and trying to knock over the proverbial apple cart.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS GUY, You can BELIEVE what YOU want but that does not make what you say correct.

My responses.

a) If you wish to believe new media can sound better, so be it for you. All too many including many more critical, with better tuned hearing and enthusiastic listeners will argue that new media does not guarantee better sound. High Rez maybe and more so maybe it sounds just different but not guaranteed better.

b) Physical media is tangible and no argument there however a 5 inch CD liner notes is NOT the same as a 12 inch record sleeve and more so a gate-folded record sleeves. It's like having your mom put in a cheap frame on the wall that 8x10 Sears portrait of you maybe as a snot nosed kid as opposed to a 24x30/30x40 classic wall portrait. Or if you are not into photos that yard sale 8x10 painting framed vs a 24x36 framed classic painting.

c) Rituals are more than religion my myopic forum poster here. Being human has most if not all of us adopt some forms of rituals religious or otherwise. Pulling out an LP from your hopefully cherished collection and doing all the steps to get it playing is not just a ritual but a right of passage so to speak to know for the next 20 odd min. you will be able to sit down and JUST LISTEN in hopeful sonic bliss before you need to turn it over. There is no ants in your pants sitting like digital and worse click-able downloads can lead one too where you play 45 seconds of a track and as if ADHD is kicking in skip to the next and then listen to that for maybe 45-50 seconds.

d) Yes you can download notes an image art but honestly most digital only users probably NEVER DO let alone print them out or even bother to look at them in detail on a computer monitor or t.v. screen. Image of a screen art is not the same as a real one IN YOUR HAND, be it a vinyl cover, a book or a magazine. Ebooks are not the same, online mags are not and neither is cover art. They are all fine choices but not as cool nor as real to the human being touchy, feely ideals.

Vinyl is NOT a bubble in creation. It's not ballooning like other bubbles have and do in life. It's a progression or understanding to the return of a media that is timeless and has a value that the digital music world (notably downloads) cannot fulfill. It's not for everyone and it likely will not regain it hey day status. Obviously you have no care, nor a bother to gain an understanding of this. Vinyl is for those who want another real media that offers in most cases a superior sound quality and a more enjoyable experience not just in sound but in visual appeal and even the hunt or looking for LP's to collect, own and play.

Turntables are also JUST COOL. They each impart a flavour of sound and mechanical design that has a uniqueness that each manufacturer puts into R&D and sales. This makes them a cool component to a real hi-fi buff's system. CD players though are fine and I am not anti-CD, never found that and music downloads NEVER WILL! Friends who come over will NOT likely see nor strike up a conversation over your CD player or worse the computer device or media streamer you use to play music. But if you have a turntable especially a visually appealing one, it will bring forward a conversation. So too will a shelf or book case filled with LP's. Your virtual files on the HD wont.

My beef with those who bash vinyl are that you have often a short sighted view of this media and its current improving fortunes as well as often most vinyl bashers have little or no credible experience as to how good it can be sonically and how fun it can be to collect and keep. You all too often see vinyl bashers ignorantly whine for the sake just *****in and trying to knock over the proverbial apple cart.

I do love Vinyl! I have played it for over half a century.

But to pretend that the quality is better than good CDs and especially really good BD. With BD you get a picture also, which is ideal for opera. The sound is stunning, and the best LPs can not compete.

However I still enjoy my large vinyl collection, but I no longer add to it.

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

It's PRETEND to you and your subjective mind in listening. Others will argue 180 degrees opposite than you as to the digital media choices including the better ones. The fact you can't get this point is glaring.

 

[Alex2507]

The fact you can't get this point is glaring.

What's it glaring at?

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

What's it glaring at?

That he supposes that digital is objectively better and as such subjectively too. That vinyl listeners must pretend that their media is better. Both ideals though are based on subjectiveness.

Funny, the other day Scott Wilkensen had Steve Guttenberg on his Home Theatre Geeks Podcast. The topic at hand was that measurements don't tell the whole story. Find the show and listen to it if you can.

Look, I like stats and specs too , they can be fun to look at and compare but they do not tell the whole story as to what sounds good or not. They can provide some semblance of order, some logic and reason. But here is the crux and one too many digital-philes fail to grasp. So if I may?

The human brain IS NOT like an Intel or AMD processor. Computers are solely logical, they have no sense of the subjective, they are not with bias or a soul so to speak. They only compute measurements and produce results to review.

The human brain is not only functioning on the logical and rational level. In fact, I'd suggest that our brains are operating more on an emotional and thus subjective level. To try to equate sonic preferences and or particularly a bias towards digital because it can measure better over most or any analogue format is the failing of the anti- analogue / anti-vinyl group.

Humans do not respond in only rational ways. Any geek who can recall Star Treck knows what Spock always noted. Basically that logic is not the prime motive of being human. We more or less try to balance rational and logical thoughts with our emotional and subjective thoughts or feelings. Most of the time I suggest we fall towards the emotional and the subjective.

So measurements can speak one side but that does not guarantee the products of such will sound better or be more preferred by the human mind and soul. Digital-philes seem often to not grasp this point.

I am not anti- (good) digital. I have a lot of it in my set up. I base my thoughts of audio on my preferences as to what I find sounds better or best to me. Most of the time analogue and mostly so vinyl sounds better. It's not PRETEND BETTER, it's based on being HUMAN with emotions and a subjective point of view as part of being human, and not being a machine. Machines lack that what make us human. A machine would dispense with any care nor programmed thought as to the happy face emoticon I placed here, you though probably did not. You likely noticed it and registered it in your conscience.

 

[TLS Guy]

That he supposes that digital is objectively better and as such subjectively too. That vinyl listeners must pretend that their media is better. Both ideals though are based on subjectiveness.

Funny, the other day Scott Wilkensen had Steve Guttenberg on his Home Theatre Geeks Podcast. The topic at hand was that measurements don't tell the whole story. Find the show and listen to it if you can.

Look, I like stats and specs too , they can be fun to look at and compare but they do not tell the whole story as to what sounds good or not. They can provide some semblance of order, some logic and reason. But here is the crux and one too many digital-philes fail to grasp. So if I may?

The human brain IS NOT like an Intel or AMD processor. Computers are solely logical, they have no sense of the subjective, they are not with bias or a soul so to speak. They only compute measurements and produce results to review.

The human brain is not only functioning on the logical and rational level. In fact, I'd suggest that our brains are operating more on an emotional and thus subjective level. To try to equate sonic preferences and or particularly a bias towards digital because it can measure better over most or any analogue format is the failing of the anti- analogue / anti-vinyl group.

Humans do not respond in only rational ways. Any geek who can recall Star Treck knows what Spock always noted. Basically that logic is not the prime motive of being human. We more or less try to balance rational and logical thoughts with our emotional and subjective thoughts or feelings. Most of the time I suggest we fall towards the emotional and the subjective.

So measurements can speak one side but that does not guarantee the products of such will sound better or be more preferred by the human mind and soul. Digital-philes seem often to not grasp this point.

I am not anti- (good) digital. I have a lot of it in my set up. I base my thoughts of audio on my preferences as to what I find sounds better or best to me. Most of the time analogue and mostly so vinyl sounds better. It's not PRETEND BETTER, it's based on being HUMAN with emotions and a subjective point of view as part of being human, and not being a machine. Machines lack that what make us human. A machine would dispense with any care nor programmed thought as to the happy face emoticon I placed here, you though probably did not. You likely noticed it and registered it in your conscience.

That is just a huge load of the usual cod's wallop from a subjectivist.

As GK Chersterton so eruditely remarked: - "If you argue with a madman you will get the worst of it." You certainly fit that description.

I will not discuss emotions. They have nothing to do with it.

A CD has a dynamic range much greater than an LP.

The distortion of an LP is about 10,000 times greater than a CD.

The frequency response is easily kept between 0.06 db from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. An LP can not come close to that.

BD even surpasses that.

Now don't get me wrong, LP at its best can sound very good, but it will not reproduce a large symphony orchestra to the point where is is so close to live it makes no difference. Modern digital media played back on a really good reproducer can.

The only analog sources I have that can match digital, is analog tape on expensive master tape, running at 15 ips playing recordings I made myself using microphones that cost a fortune. Even then noise reduction units are required.

Analog tape from high speed copy again does not get within striking distance of good digital media.

I have science and engineering on my side, all you have is bias.

I love vintage analog media, but I won't pretend it is the equal of modern digital media, because it is not.

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

To TLS Guy,


Your last post only enforces the arrogance and verbal brow beating you try to give out without any understanding as to how and why humans listen to music.

Even on the objective, the dynamic range, your digital choices NEVER USE ALL THEORETICALLY AVAILABLE!

Take the 96db of theoretical dynamic range of a CD and use it? Try to sell any media to a consumer that uses all of it. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! But lets see what will happen.

The typical consumer's home has on avg. 25-35db of background noise. Take that as a base in which your 96db of CD dynamic range must overcome. 25 - 35db + 96 = 121 - 131db. YEP! if you want to hear all the decibels of that 96db. See how long you will be allowed to live in your home and neighbourhood at those levels. DVD and BD with 144db of theoretical dynamic range only glosses that issue more.

No, not one CD you own has anywhere near 96db dynamic range. More likely all but the most dynamic classical and operas will have between a low of 25 to 50 db of dynamic range engineered onto the media. Better Jazz and such maybe 50-65 and the most dynamic of classical will have engineered more than 65db. Any viable analogue format has the ability to convey those dynamic range levels and properly made vinyl to name one can do so with ease. Sorry but them's the facts. Since YOU LIKE FACTS!

AND AS TO EMOTIONS! YES, IT'S ALL ALL ABOUT HUMAN EMOTIONS BUB!

Everything I said about such emotions and thus subjectivity rings true. We are not damned machines. You may wish you were, that is your problem but the very music you listen to is near 100% based on the emotional, subjective and not objective. You don't listen to dynamic range, nor be they 16 or 24 bits as a math session. You are listening to air pressure and how the chemical and electrical connections in our brains subjectively respond to these musical and audio cues to create a general pleasurable and healthy emotion and series of emotions.

This is why many sound, reasonable and generally healthy listeners may very often prefer analogue sound and notably vinyl over any digital format.


You can take the objectivity of science and such and stuff it. Again we are emotional beings not machines.


And yes bub on a good set up quality vinyl can produce even classical music to knock you out of your seat and even mesmerize you into total commitment to the music playing. Maybe you should open your mind a bit more as to how and why humans listen to music.

Look as far as I'm concerned you can stick to your failed objective measures as cues to what you BELIEVE is better quality. It's your choice. But your repeated arrogant posts here trying to belittle and brow beat towards what those who may side towards quality analogue say only makes you look silly and small.

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

Following up something Steve Guttenberg noted on the Home Theatre Geeks podcast. A point about how objective measures or testing can be failing. This can include to point even at how double blind may not be as accurate as one may think.

Now he said he has a friend who is a recording engineer and to make a point the engineer played a test tone for him once, if I recall white noise or such for Guttenberg. The volume was set and recorded to keep note of and the tone played for a while. Then the test tone was re-cued and volume boosted to a higher level. It was played again for a while. Finally the test tone was re-cued once again and the volume was returned back to the original level. Guttenberg noted at how the returning of the volume to the earlier level was now notably quieter to his hearing than he originally recalled it. OBJECTIVE MEASURES SKEWED BY HUMAN SUBJECTIVITY!

I was thinking as I heard that about a similar anomaly I recall and one that anyone can replicate.

Go and drive your car on an open and safe highway, at a time where you may be able to drive at say a constant highway speed, lets say 50mph or 80kmh. I'm not going to advocate speeding so drive at a constant speed in safe way maybe even slightly below the posted speed for a few minutes. Then speed up to as high as you can go without fear of getting a traffic ticket, maybe 70mph or 110kmh. Hold that speed safely for a few minutes. Once a few minutes have passed slow back down to 50mph or 80kmh and you will likely notice in you subjective ways that it now feels much slower than it did the first time that you started this test on the highway.

The point is, our brains are not on/off switches. Our brain collects info and try to make sense of what it interpolates and thus given circumstances may try to average out the experience. This is why 50mph feels a certain way at speed, then once you drive at 70mph for a while it begins to feel the same as 50mph did to then going back to 50mph now then feels slow for a while. Our brain takes time to readjust.

This may reveal why even "abx" testing can be skewed as our brain tries to make the same source signal all sound the same given a long enough duration to listen to each regardless of gear as long as each is at the same volume.

A better way to test sound of gear or even media is to set up the system to equal volume but to listen to source "A" for only 1 minute, jotting notes onto paper as to what you hear. STOP! Then switch to source "B" for 1 minute playing the same tune, again taking notes as to what you hear. STOP! Then find another track DO NOT USE THE SAME ONE! Cue source "A" up and listen to only 1 minute again taking notes. STOP! Now cue up source "B" again for only one minute jotting notes again.

I bet your notes will reveal more to you at how similar or different each source will be than a blind ABX test may reveal.

Objective measurements have a place but do not tell the whole story as to why a human listener may prefer one sound or source to another.

Guttenberg also noted that Joseph Grado once said "HE NEVER MEASURED ONE HEADPHONE DESIGN HE ENGINEERED!" Sennheiser revels in the fact they measure and re-measure their headphones. Yet tests reveal Grado's generally have a similar sound throughout their lineup but Senheiser's do not. Objectivity ???

 

[3db]

Time_Stand_Stil

The CD is a better format than vinyl but that does not mean that the recording engineer takes advantage of the better format. The loudness wars have crept into the CD format limiting dynamic range to below vinyl standards because some fat arseh?les at the record label execss decided that money was more important than art. The recording engineers working for the big companies take their marching orders form these fat execs

TLS's experience is limited too only classical music. In that genre of music, the recordings are better on CD than on vinyl. However, the rest of his arguements of turning on a PC to read liner notes, going to church for replacing the ritual of music invovlement when listening to vinyl is to put it into his words, "cods wallop". Weak grasps at nothing.

However, in most other genre musics, it comes down the recording engineers and their freedom as to what sounds better. I have vinyl copies of CDs that will simply blow the CD recording out of the water. Its leagues better than the CD. I also have CDs that blow the vinyl copy to pieces as well.

In my expereince and owning over a thousand titles, a few of which are on both formats, there is no clear format winner as it ultimately boils down to the recording engineer and their degree of freedom.

 

[cpp]

there is no clear format winner as it ultimately boils down to the recording engineer and their degree of freedom.

you almost got it right.. You left out, the freedom of the user to use what he/she likes regardless of what anyone else uses or comments on.

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

3db,


You can say CD is better only in a few measured specs. But in other areas and especially based on the fact humans are more subjective than objective when listening to audio a strong base suggests a preference towards vinyl sounding better. To which then it does not matter one bit if digital may measure in some ways better. We do not listen to specs and stats, we listen to audio.

As to classical, ironically I pulled out a Columbia Masterworks copy of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. The fidelity of my LP copy is superb, hardly a tick or a pop, no distinguishable groove noise, only the original master tape hiss which would be on the CD variant too was apparent. The LP, IMO would likely give a CD variant a run and probably sound more fluid and immersive.

But once again humans are emotional and subjective when listening to audio.


On a note based on a recent listening session I had, a note that may ring more in line with what Guttenberg noted in the HT podcast I've spoken about here. One again on objective and eve ABX testing. A few days before the podcast I was cleaning up and thus firing up a thrift store find, old late 80's Pioneer CD player (set me back $6.00). Once cleaned I plugged it into my system, turned it on and let it warm up for a few minutes. I pulled out a CD, Bruce Cockburn, Slice O Life CD set. A nicely made CD IMO. I've heard it often and am comfortable with the music on it. I put it on an began to play the disc listening to "World of Wonders". Immediately I felt that it was only ok, a little flat in depth and not much to get excited over. I let the song play through to its end. Meh, only wasted $6.00 on the machine. A fine unit for a casual listener I guess. For the Hell of it I then fired up a vintage machine in my system a late 80's Audio Dynamics machine. I bought it for like $15.00 a few months ago and kept it as it sounded pretty good for its vintage. Playing the same track, immediately I noticed that it was playing back nicer, warmer sound and more spacial clarity over the old Pioneer. I too let the song play out. But clearly this CD player was better sounding. Next, I put the disc in my Oppo BDP-83 which is connected for stereo via analogue outs and thus uses what was the TOTL, Cirrus Logic DAC and IMO one HELL OF A NICE CD PLAYER! especially for the price. The same song really opened up, a little less warmer than the Audio Dynamics but lots more detail and air. I let the song play out.

Ok, so where am I'm going here. I next put the CD back in the Pioneer and listened to "World Of Wonders" again. Hmm, it still sounded different but not as much as bad, ??? Not sure what to think. I played out the song and then ran it in the Audio Dynamics player. The gap between the Pioneer and the Audio Dynamics was much closer, HUH??? WHAT??? Ok, I chilled for a moment and then put the disc back in the Oppo. It still sounded better but not as much as the first run. I've never done this sort of test session before. I decided to run the series of playback in order for a 3rd time and the differences while playing the exact same song off the CD was now almost balanced out. I really was scratching my head ??? But I figured I'm not going to ponder this experience.

Then not 2 days later the podcast was played and during the show my mind cam back to my test here. I began to think that maybe the brain hearing the same music in repetition even on different players and of notably different qualities of machines is in trying to save maybe energy or in being more efficient with memory and spatial cues tries to balance it all out. Because HONEST TO GOD by the 3rd session in repetition the sonic gap between the 3 players was all but gone! The Oppo is though a much better machine I damn well know it!

So this may show if extrapolated to ABX testing that maybe it's not as accurate especially if playing in repetition the same audio over and over while switching even blindly the sources.


just some added thoughts.

 

[BMXTRIX]

a strong base suggests a preference towards vinyl sounding better.

Don't confuse a strong base with a very vocal base. By far, the strong base has supported CD as a far more enjoyable format for decades now.

To which then it does not matter one bit if digital may measure in some ways better. We do not listen to specs and stats, we listen to audio.

And then we generate opinions, then we back up our biases and beliefs and thoughts, and wishes with arguements that don't begin with the words "In my opinion..." When, in reality, that is exactly the words that should be said first.

The fidelity of my LP copy is superb, hardly a tick or a pop, no distinguishable groove noise, only the original master tape hiss which would be on the CD variant too was apparent.

The 10,000,000 time I would listen to that same music on a BD it would be identical to the first time it was put in the player, and it wouldn't need the words "hardly a tick or a pop" as a reminder that there IS a tick and there IS a pop to distract from the actual music.

The LP, IMO would likely give a CD variant a run and probably sound more fluid and immersive.

A good LP will always sound good. No arguement there... as for fluidity and immersiveness, I would think that would depend on the setup of the rest of the gear in the room along with a lot of personal bias.

But once again humans are emotional and subjective when listening to audio.

And love to make their opinions out to be facts without substantiation, and even in the face of conflicting information.

...So this may show if extrapolated to ABX testing that maybe it's not as accurate especially if playing in repetition the same audio over and over while switching even blindly the sources.

The issue I have with almost everything you've written is that you are horrendously biased on this issue. Your own testing you did with your ears. You didn't take a single measurement, you don't know if there were any differences at all. As your ears fatigue and don't hear what they used to hear, and you listen to the same music over and over and you've grown comfortable with a certain sound, you seem to completely overlook just how completely lousy human ears are for making any determinations at all whnoten it comes to audio.

The one thing they are good for is knowing what we, personally, like. That said, if you want some added harmonics, some hiss, some pop, to make your music sound proper to you, then I'm sure we can run a digital download through a few plugins and give you exactly what you love to hear and you wouldn't be able to tell it wasn't your beloved vinyl.



Really, I get personal preference and I get personal bias, but when that is presented as 'fact' based upon a very small group of people who also enjoy a similar sound in music, it simply doesn't make it fact. In the A/V world, this is done over and over again! Facts are facts... opinions are not facts. Opinions will never be facts. And, when opinion is presented as facts, with all the supporting opinions (facts) of others, it doens't sound like fact, and it doesn't sound like opinion - it sounds like religion, or a cult, which is insultive to those who actually want to learn about what vinyl has to offer.

 

[Time_Stand_Stil]

BMXTRIX

Yes, facts are facts, don't forget not all specs in digital are without compromise and error too. But we don't listen to facts per se. We listen to audio signals as music and the point is the listening for ALL OF US is subjective. Subjective to may influences, our hearing, our ability to concentrate, the design and build of gear and the interaction of the room.

As to the ticks and pops, surely you have a limited sense of reason on this regard.Most ticks and pops on any QUALITY LP are only heard if at all in quiet passages and mostly we subjectively ignore them or between tracks. During the music as long as the disc is not filthy or damaged you can't hear them. I have many LP's that are as quiet in a general light as their CD counterparts.

Next lets talk a about disc damage. Scratch and LP and typically it will click over the scratch and can be a bother. Scratch a CD and worse a BD as they are more susceptible to scratches and you get, you get, you get, you get, you get (THWACK) a skipping of the.......... ........... ......... ............. (TWACK) the track or MUTING. Not fun either so lets rule out these such anomalies ok?

It comes back to sound and what sounds good. More and more people are gravitating to vinyl as a physical media choice because they note that they most often like the sound. FACTS BE DAMNED! I do not propose vinyl will ever regain its hey day status but it's not a fluke nor a fad as over the last 7,8,9 years sales have been moving up that vinyl is growing in popularity and at a faster rate given it's size than any other format. Even your BD is not growing that fast. CD sales are falling. Downloads are popular but for ONLY CONVENIENCE!

But, one thing for sure you cannot EVER counter is this. The catalogue of global music on vinyl is probably 20 times larger than CD and the CD has been around for 30 years. It's probably I guess 200 times larger than SACD/DVD-A and even BD. It's probably 500 times larger than downloads. These digital format each will never offer up such a large catalogue EVER! before each of these is replaced by another and become OBSOLETE! Vinyl is not and never has been obsolete.


Next, lets go onto the way one listens. First the physical 12" album covers and liner notes as oppose to 4.5 in cd covers and NOTHING via downloads. No, images on a computer screen aren't the same ok? ART that's what many album covers are. They begin the ritual. Next you hold that black disc and you see the music on it. You take the time and effort to prep and cue it. Once doing so you will typically SIT DOWN and JUST LISTEN! Too much on digital is ants in your pants listening and the inevitable skipping of tracks or getting up and doing other tasks with it on in the back ground. Vinyl has you in its own way to SHUT UP AND LISTEN! That is a subjective measure but is the typical human measure.


Vinyl even as specs are all low enough to not be a worry or an issue as long as the gear is in proper working order. So once below an audible threshold we can't hear the anomalies and they then do not matter. Yes, vinyl requires more effort to play, more care to set up properly (but often not as much as anit-vinylites cry) but I say once doing so more often than not more reward and pleasure.

Look if one doesn't care about vinyl, THAT'S FINE! But to cry against it as many of the anti-vinyl guys do is just being petty and small. Obviously many typically sound and reasonable people prefer vinyl in all its ways including sonically and like it or not that's the way it is. It's a niche, a growing one and nobody in their right mind will suggest it will return to hey day status but it is not obsolete, it does not sound bad or annoying and it's not going away. Probably 1+billion LP titles out there globally, many of them selling for low prices to even mere pennies. CD is not that large as a catalogue and no other digital format it either.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yes, facts are facts, don't forget not all specs in digital are without compromise and error too. But we don't listen to facts per se. We listen to audio signals as music and the point is the listening for ALL OF US is subjective.

But, from a production side, it is all about the specs and the facts. With a goal of accurately reproducing the original score as close as it can be to 'live'. From there, what people do with it may be entirely up to them, and certainly as we listen to music it is all subjective. Just because vinyl may not be as accurate, it is not true to say it sounds worse. Likewise, it is not true to say it sounds better... But, it can often be true to say vinyl is less accurate. With that in mind, someone new to music, who wants to accurately recreate the audio, likely won't lean towards vinyl, but may instead go towards studio quality lossless formats.

As to the ticks and pops, surely you have a limited sense of reason on this regard.Most ticks and pops on any QUALITY LP are only heard if at all in quiet passages and mostly we subjectively ignore them or between tracks. During the music as long as the disc is not filthy or damaged you can't hear them. I have many LP's that are as quiet in a general light as their CD counterparts.

Yes, or it is part of the character... part of what makes vinyl wonderful. Even the imperfections add to the perfection right?

Next lets talk a about disc damage. Scratch and LP and typically it will click over the scratch and can be a bother. Scratch a CD and worse a BD (note: this is incorrect) as they are more susceptible to scratches and .... Not fun either so lets rule out these such anomalies ok?

The first CD I ever purchased plays back just as perfectly now as the day I bought it. Let's be clear... even with mediocre care of pulling a CD from its case, then putting it back in after playback, a CD is not prone to anywhere near the level of damage that vinyl is, just from the physical contact of the needle on the surface. Not that CDs don't get damaged and destroyed, they most certainly do. But, it is often because of misuse and lack of proper care that they get damaged. Still, most owners of CDs have just left them sitting out on surfaces, have gotten some scratches in them, and they continue to play back just fine. It really isn't a comparison between the damage of CDs versus vinyl is it?

It comes back to sound and what sounds good. More and more people are gravitating to vinyl as a physical media choice because they note that they most often like the sound.

More and more people? As a percentage, vinyl is outpacing digital in terms of annual growth, but as a actual market, it certainly is not.

FACTS BE DAMNED!

Yes, I know.

I do not propose vinyl will ever regain its hey day status but it's not a fluke nor a fad as over the last 7,8,9 years sales have been moving up that vinyl is growing in popularity and at a faster rate given it's size than any other format. Even your BD is not growing that fast. CD sales are falling. Downloads are popular but for ONLY CONVENIENCE!

How about sales figures? Do you KNOW how much BD has grown since it came to market about 8 years ago. Do you know how much BD sales are annually? It's an interesting statement to make, but in terms of growth, vinyl doesn't need to show much actual dollar growth to inject a huge percentage growth.

http://76.74.24.142/FA8A2072-6BF8-D44D-B9C8-CE5F55BBC050.pdf

It's not that digital downloads growth is a huge percentage compared to vinyl. It is that digital downloads saw over ten times the sales growth of vinyl in actual dollars. Similarly, the drop in CD sales was about twice the total vinyl sales for 2011... Vinyl sales numbers need to be kept within a very small window for them to appear to be impressive. Much like the first years of Blu-ray, and sales growth which was measured at 100%+ every year for the first few years. It hardly mattered when BD sales were 1% of the market. Similarly, vinyl sales just don't matter that much to the industry, but any dollar made is worth making!

But, one thing for sure you cannot EVER counter is this. The catalogue of global music on vinyl is probably 20 times larger than CD and the CD has been around for 30 years. It's probably I guess 200 times larger than SACD/DVD-A and even BD.

I'm not about to argue this. Vinyl was used for years as the only way to get music into people's homes, and did so when it was the only form of home entertainment which people could buy and control. Not just for five or ten years, but for ages. But, would be nice to get some numbers.

It's probably 500 times larger than downloads. These digital format each will never offer up such a large catalogue EVER! before each of these is replaced by another and become OBSOLETE! Vinyl is not and never has been obsolete.

DD is a completely different story. You actively preach against downloads... But, downloads are the future along with streaming. Digital delivery is locked in as the growth sector, and it is hard to say what may replace it, if anything. But, it certainly will offer far more variety, and already does right now, for actively available content. It may offer more now, at one time, than vinyl ever has. Vinyl has had years to accumulate what it offers (when you can find it), but digital delivers every moment a complete embodyment of possibilities without the limitations of physical delivery. Hate it or not, quality or not, digital is the music archive for the forseeable future.

Next, lets go onto the way one listens. ...

About half of your discussion on the way one listens was spent discussing things other than listening. I would expect that you are correct though since a very high number of people who listen to CDs and DD, are on the go. They don't tote their record players along in the car, on their arm, in their pocket, or anywhere else. So, the typical vinyl enthusiast is probably not grabbing their LP off the charger as they run out the door. But, the number of people who sit down and listen to a good CD, or DD in a serious manner is for sure far higher than those that do so for vinyl. Not as a percentage of the whole, but as a raw number. It is the nature of the beast with CD and DD, compared to vinyl.

Vinyl even as specs are all low enough to not be a worry or an issue as long as the gear is in proper working order. So once below an audible threshold we can't hear the anomalies and they then do not matter.

I agree, as long as any distortions introduced by the analog gear are of low enough impact to not be audible, then it doesn't matter. Not sure how much it may run to get analog gear that good... I think most people can find digital gear that good for under $100 pretty easily.

Yes, vinyl requires more effort to play, more care to set up properly (but often not as much as anit-vinylites cry) but I say once doing so more often than not more reward and pleasure.

Yes, you have been saying that a lot in this thread. I agree, that setting up a vinyl album and listening to it properly probably yields rewards of good music. Strangely, a person who likes good music likely finds the rewards of a good CD or a quality DD just as rewarding.

Look if one doesn't care about vinyl, THAT'S FINE! But to cry against it as many of the anti-vinyl guys do is just being petty and small.

I don't know many people who complain about vinyl or who are anti-vinyl. They have just moved on and don't care. Most don't care. By far the majority dont' care one little bit.

Obviously many typically sound and reasonable people prefer vinyl in all its ways including sonically and like it or not that's the way it is. It's a niche, a growing one and nobody in their right mind will suggest it will return to hey day status but it is not obsolete, it does not sound bad or annoying and it's not going away. Probably 1+billion LP titles out there globally, many of them selling for low prices to even mere pennies. CD is not that large as a catalogue and no other digital format it either.

No, vinyl isn't going away. I hope it never does. It is a fun thing to collect for a very small group of people. Yet, that's all it is. A niche group collecting a niche product. Some of whom who get their panties in a bunch anytime someone suggests that vinyl doesn't actual deliver the same quality as a good CD does, let alone what a BD does. (ignoring DD altogether)

Vinyl sounds good, it has a unique sound. But, that's it. More accurate? No, but that doesn't matter, and I'm not saying it should. I will say though that there is a far greater group who enjoy their CDs and DD on a daily basis than those who enjoy vinyl. At a casual, and a serious level, those people far outweigh the few who do still listen to, and collect vinyl. And most? Most just don't care at all.

 

[PENG]

may ring more in line with what Guttenberg noted in the HT podcast I've spoken about here. One again on objective and eve ABX testing.

I used to pay attention to professional reviewers. I no longer do but still enjoy reading their stuff just for fun. Assuming they are genuine, they must have been listening with their heads and mainly eyes. I must agree that we don't listen to specs but I also know no engineers (audio, recording, electrical/electronic) can possibly know how to make their gear sound nice to billions of different people potentially with different taste/preference, so naturally they would just do their best to aim for fidelity/accuracy, i.e. record, produce, manufacturer something that in the end would replicate (approximately) the "live" experience, in certain acoustic environments. In doing so, they have to go with theory for the design, and instrumentation for verifying the results, not their own ears/likings. So why all the fuss, buzz, and flowerly words as typically used by professional reviewers as well as hearsayers who parrot their words? None of those words/adjectives/descriptions are definable.

I like my vinyls too but to me its mostly the quality of the recording, less so the format that matters. That means a well recorded CD could better a not so well recorded vinyl. That's just my one cent, I do respect yours.

 

[mtrycrafts]

3db,


You can say CD is better only in a few measured specs. ...

Well, that is just not true. The CD Red book is better in all measurement specs, period.

The issue I have with almost everything you've written is that you are horrendously biased on this issue. Your own testing you did with your ears. You didn't take a single measurement, you don't know if there were any differences at all. As your ears fatigue and don't hear what they used to hear, and you listen to the same music over and over and you've grown comfortable with a certain sound, you seem to completely overlook just how completely lousy human ears are for making any determinations at all whnoten it comes to audio.


....

And, we have to remember how lousy our memory is for small differences after very short time, not to mention a day and longer.

 

[sterling shoote]

This is a very entertaining thread; but, what's the point, really? Is it not enough to just enjoy whatever it is that promotes a satisfying experience. For me, I've come to appreciate BD audio in Dolby Digital over vinyl, CD, and SACD. I suppose it's an evolutionary thing. I just wish I could get these BD's into my iTunes library.

 

[cpp]

Is it not enough to just enjoy whatever it is that promotes a satisfying experience.

agree, it's a personal choice.

 

[3db]

Agreed. This thread is not intended to be a war between formats. Its sole intention is to keep us vinyl lovers entertained with news and reviews with all things vinyl. Spin and grin my friends.