ATI AT2000 amps

[jinjuku]

Solid-State. Please tone it down. You can present whatever view points you need to present in a calm, concise, mature manner.

I'm sure there is some variability in op-amps and also sure there are some low end ones that are noisy. But you have to make the argument that they are used in something like a Denon 4XXX or 5XXX series receiver.

There is another thread where a poster had an Integra and much more expensive Anthem actually setup at his house by the dealer and their respective EQ's ran. He went with the Integra.

 

[Solid-State]

BUT

Kingwa's

Reference 10.2

IS

IN

AN

ENTIRELY

DIFFERENT

LEAGUE!

I'm sorry you guys can't tell that from a picture of the innards/electronics... I know the insiders can though!!! Isn't she a BEAUTY!

And that's without the TE8802 USB module in there for nice async into his custom DSP.

OK Moderator

THIS IS MY LAST OUTRAGEOUS POST I PROMISE !

PS DIY HAXORS the 10 version has I2S on a 8P8C socket. You cold prob take I2S off of a trace on the AVR PCB and build your own external port/interface thus avoiding it's horrible converters and I/V line stage etc and even bad SP/DIF clock!

 

[Solid-State]

What do you know about AB and Cinepro? What makes you think that I paid double for the Cinepro compared to the AB.

I don't know what you paid and it's none of my business. The point is it's the SAME PRODUCT.

That's the point I was trying to make.

I'm just sick of watching for YEARS middle men nail rich cats big bucks over and over again with turntables and other BS audio products. Then when those kinds of guys get into their own label they simply STENCIL it and then make outrageous claims like they actually engineered the piece.

I'm not saying any names in particular here either ok Cinepro guy! etc

I'm just sick of watching this from the sidelines... it's

DISHONEST

And you can argue people can spend what ever they want on anything but man... when you walk into someones world and nail them over say... 500% margin... YOUR A A-HOLE SCAMMER!!!

I've watched these guys and personally know some. They are slicker than **** in an ice flow man... and can convince a wealthy intelligent educated man (liberal arts) of complete BS.

And the thing that kills me... the customers actually think the boutique audio sales guy is THEIR FRIEND!!!!

hahahah


He just bought his 16 year old daughter a bloody Toyota Corolla on the deal DEWWWDDD!!!!

 

[walter duque]

I don't know what you paid and it's none of my business. The point is it's the SAME PRODUCT.

That's the point I was trying to make.

I'm just sick of watching for YEARS middle men nail rich cats big bucks over and over again with turntables and other BS audio products. Then when those kinds of guys get into their own label they simply STENCIL it and then make outrageous claims like they actually engineered the piece.

I'm not saying any names in particular here either ok Cinepro guy! etc

Let me put it this way, the OEM for Cinepro speakers has been a personal friend of mine for many years. The 15K Cinepro amp cost me $3800.-- if I want it. Bob and I from AB have been dealing amps for about ten years. Yes he used to be the OEM, but not any more. The new Cinepro amps are not made by Bob, trust me.

 

[Solid-State]

Let me put it this way, the OEM for Cinepro speakers has been a personal friend of mine for many years. The 15K Cinepro amp cost me $3800.-- if I want it. Bob and I from AB have been dealing amps for about ten years. Yes he used to be the OEM, but not any more. The new Cinepro amps are not made by Bob, trust me.

OK so your an insider... just like I thought...

You know the GAME!

You do then understand my comments perhaps !?!

Yeah they are not made by Bob but it's his original design. So what's the difference if Cinepro gets say... ATI to build/assemble the PCB/units work.

It's the same product anyway you look at it less the different caps and perhaps layout changes and tweaks. It's Bob's design.

You and AcuDef both showed the links at the AVforum regarding that english guy's posts about the "custom to order" AB amp. You're close with AcuDef didn't you tell him it's the same product? I know you didn't mention it publicly... then AcuDef says something like I don't trust it do you have measurements? I'd stick with Cinepro over that... blahh blahh You both carried on a conversation about it and then both pointed away from Bob's deal and gave the flies on the wall the idea the Cinepro and or ATI was better... "I don't trust it"

I could be totally off here and have the wrong idea or read it wrong but seriously...

What games are you guys playing here ehh?

Seems overpriced. And are there any 3rd party measurements like Stereophile, Soundstage, HTM, etc?

I say stick with your Cinepro.

 

[walter duque]

OK so your an insider...

You know the GAME!

You do then understand my comments perhaps !?!

Yeah they are not made by Bob but it's his original design. So what's the difference if he gets say... ATI to build/assemble the units/PCB work.

It's the same product anyway you look at it less the different caps and perhaps layout changes and tweaks. It's Bob's design.

Can't argue with this on that one. If you buy the OEM's speakers they retail for 1/4 of price of Cinepro speakers. It's all in marketing my friend. He sells more Cinepros then his own brand and they are both the same. He also makes some mean subs, used to be OEM for Velodyne till they moved to China.

 

[Solid-State]

Walter,

When you had the conversation with AcuDef were you aware of the DB and Cinepro BEING THE SAME PRODUCT ESSENTIALLY!

You just admitted it didn't you!

So your two's comments and conversation were totally disingenuous and dishonest.

Well at least one side of the conversation was right... I dunno if AcuDef there is even smart enough with electronics to spot it as he didn't even seem to realize it's the same unit...

LOL

What is your connection to Cinepro Walter?

IMHO using different caps and older board revisions with different back plate connectors doesn't warrent the claim you engineered the piece and claiming so on a corp site is dishonest IHMO. Despite how ugly your Purple and Gold badge is!

hahah

 

[walter duque]

Walter,

When you had the conversation with AcuDef were you aware of the DB and Cinepro BEING THE SAME PRODUCT ESSENTIALLY!

You just admitted it didn't you!

So your two's comments and conversation were totally disingenuous and dishonest.

Well at least one side of the conversation was right... I dunno if AcuDef there is even smart enough with electronics to spot it as he didn't even seem to realize it's the same unit...

LOL

What is your connection to Cinepro Walter?

PS I notice the site is down... perhaps they are removing the claims their engineered the amplifier. Using different caps doesn't mean you've re-engineered the piece pal and claiming so on a corp site is just as disingenuous!

It's really not my place to bring this information out to the public. I am very close the company and I do not promote it or recommend it. They do very well with out me. You never see me recommending my speakers or any Cinepro products. I am also close to this http://www.powermodules.com/power_modules/Home.html company, tell me what you think.

 

[Solid-State]

Sounds like you guys won't easily let me turf this one up to placebo. Such Audioholics!

I'll try to do some more comparison when I have more time.

At any rate, this $350 generic Chinese 150wpc 8ohm/250wpc 4ohm/40lbs stereo amp "sounds" pretty darn good.

Very good point AcuDef ehh

Electronics have come so far in SQ as well as our understandings of acoustics thanks to the works of Dr and Physicists like you mentioned and transducer design is currently at a pinnacle for the most part due to amazing computer modeling and new maths.

BUT

Even Sig would agree Kingwa's Reference 10.2 would be better for digital transport than your bloody box store AVR via digital transport.

Hey I haven't even figured yet where your converter is in the chain with those Orions. Do you feed that 997 or what ever a digital or analog signal? If analog I hope you understand the converters being used are the ones from the transport right. If feeding the AVR a digital signal understand that the converters and I/V line stage is in the AVR.

The thing is right... Sig etc have seen pre amps that cost THOUSANDS and they are JADED from YEARS of watching RIP OFF PRODUCTS and can't be bothered to explain technical stuff that requires a bloody chalk board and a couple hours... and it's in one ear and out the other a day later right. It's a waste of time. Plus a good chunk of the populous simply are not educated or smart enough to understand... EVER

So he just says... yeah the stuff is really good these days... it's basically the same...

Because he can't be bothered to totally explain right... and a lot of guys seriously can't tell the difference anyway!

HAHAHAH

BUT

I'm most certain he would have a BIG THUMBS UP for a pre amp that's a DAC with 4 pieces of PCM1704UK on a completely balanced design with dale relay volume and fantastic PSU sections.

PS customers could hear the dif right away on an ABX but can't because sonic memory is very short lived and they never have the chance to ABX

 

[Solid-State]

It's really not my place to bring this information out to the public. I am very close the company and I do not promote it or recommend it. They do very well with out me. You never see me recommending my speakers or any Cinepro products. I am also close to this Home company, tell me what you think.

That's a very nice line card less the tubes and styli. I could live with myself selling that gear for sure at the right price points!

GOOD STUFF!

I wouldn't have to put the slicker than sh|t in an iceflow hat... to sell the stuff!

This image turns me off... LOL

but hey... I'm just brutal when it comes to the science proving without doubt the analog myth BS

PS In this business one bites your lip so many times it forms CALLUS!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Damn it, Jim, I'm a pharmacist, not an engineer!

I like this hobby, but I really don't care to know all the in's and out of electrical theories and mechanical theories, etc.

I rely on The Audio Critic and electrical engineers like PENG and guys like GranteedEV, DS-21, AJinFLA, etc, to keep me straight.

And it seems to me that none of them share your beliefs.

So no offense, but I'll stick to their words over yours.

 

[fuzz092888]

Damn it, Jim, I'm a pharmacist, not an engineer!

Haha love the quote alterations Just watch the newest one on blu-ray the other day.

 

[cpp]

I'm a freaking engineer, (retired) I like specs, and yes specs are important in the decision making process regardless what you purchase, but I let my ears make the final decision. If it sounds good to you and you can afford it, buy it. If you worried about specs all the time and what other people think, you would end up never owning anything except a smart phone and ear buds and a monthly trip to a psychologist.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I like this hobby, but I really don't care to know all the in's and out of electrical theories and mechanical theories, etc.

In this case you're not missing out on anything.

 

[Solid-State]

Damn it, Jim, I'm a pharmacist, not an engineer!

I like this hobby, but I really don't care to know all the in's and out of electrical theories and mechanical theories, etc.

I rely on The Audio Critic and electrical engineers like PENG and guys like GranteedEV, DS-21, AJinFLA, etc, to keep me straight.

And it seems to me that none of them share your beliefs.

So no offense, but I'll stick to their words over yours.

They don't share my believe that the Audio GD Reference 10.2 would sound better than your setup with the box store Denon AVR-997 !?!

I HIGHLY DOUBT IT!


I still don't understand where the converter is. What is your transport and does it feed the AVR a digital or analog signal?

The absolute best product you could purchase right now for your Salon 2 and Orion rigs would be a Reference 10.2 IMHO

Those units are SOUGHT AFTER BIG TIME so even if you don't like it you could sell it off EASY!

Also Kingwa doesn't do large production runs. Each unit is hand assembled and built and tested... to order! Also PCM1704UK is being phased out by TI so...

That piece will probably in the coming years appreciate into being worth EVEN MORE MONEY than the $1850 Kindwa is asking.

PS the last batches of PCM1704UK and going for as much as $70 bucks a CHIP! The unit has FOUR OF THEM in a truly balanced design.

 

[Solid-State]

And my offer still stands to run down the street NAKED with the Audioholics logo painted on my chest IF you HONESTLY feel the 10.2 doesn't sound as good or sounds the same as the AVR-997 pre/converter you're using now.

I'm sure a lot of my detractors would LOVE to see that ehh!

 

[jinjuku]

They don't share my believe that the Audio GD Reference 10.2 would sound better than your setup with the box store Denon AVR-997?

One of the interesting things and it is tangential to 2.0 is that as AVR's, surround formats, DSP etc get more and more complex. Companies like Cary, Rotel, etc are going to be exiting the market or they are going to license someone else's design.

Those units are SOUGHT AFTER BIG TIME so even if you don't like it you could sell it off EASY!

Also Kingwa doesn't do large production runs. Each unit is hand assembled and built and tested... to order! Also PCM1704UK is being phased out by TI so...

That piece will probably in the coming years appreciate into being worth EVEN MORE MONEY than the $1850 Kindwa is asking.

Future resale value. I am saving for my next car (I never finance). One of the things that the Wife and I have discussed is a classic car. A $35K Olds 442 bought in 2012 will be worth at least $35K in 2022.

Honestly I would rather a device taped out to 4 layer glass/epoxy PCB and flow/IR soldered than hand assembly. That hand assembly isn't a selling point for me. It's a major cost point that really doesn't net me anything.

 

[Solid-State]

One of the interesting things and it is tangential to 2.0 is that as AVR's, surround formats, DSP etc get more and more complex. Companies like Cary, Rotel, etc are going to be exiting the market or they are going to license someone else's design.



You have hit one interesting thing: Future resale value. I am saving for my next car (I never finance). One of the things that the Wife and I have discussed is a classic car. A $35K Olds 442 bought in 2012 will be worth at least $35K in 2022.

Honestly I would rather a device taped out to 4 layer glass/epoxy PCB and flow/IR soldered than hand assembly. That hand assembly isn't a selling point for me. It's a major cost point that really doesn't net me anything.

Point taken but do you know why he does this? He bin sorts and hand matches components right...

It's nuts and time consuming I know... but at $1850 bucks do you seriously think he's including that in the pricing!

BTW the PCB is 2MM double copper/stringy board at 70uM copper. These are TOP NOTCH PCBs. You think he'd go to such great lengths for layout and PSU sections and opto isolation and then use cheap PCBs !?!

hahah yeah right

PS the SMT components are placed at the PCB fab I'd assume...

 

[fuzz092888]

And my offer still stands to run down the street NAKED with the Audioholics logo painted on my chest IF you HONESTLY feel the 10.2 doesn't sound as good or sounds the same as the AVR-997 pre/converter you're using now.

I'm sure a lot of my detractors would LOVE to see that ehh!

So I'm not sure if you misspoke, but it seems to me for all your claims of the 10.2 being so much better and that everyone else is ignorant etc etc, why would your claim only be that it sounds as good as the 990?

It seems to me that the 990 is a much better deal if it sounds as good as the reference 10.2 since the 990 costs $880 and the reference 10.2 costs $1845+shipping.

Maybe I'm mistaken, or I misread what you posted, but if they both objectively output a similar signal, similarly enough to not be audible or very audible, then it doesn't seem worth it.

 

[Solid-State]

Honestly I would rather a device taped out to 4 layer glass/epoxy PCB and flow/IR soldered than hand assembly. That hand assembly isn't a selling point for me. It's a major cost point that really doesn't net me anything.

Are you aware of the problems ROHS compliance has caused with solder issues in electronics the last number of years!

Those joints are known to break jinjuku...

HORRIBLE!