DIY vs commercial (many questions)

ARES24

ARES24

Full Audioholic
I am interested in getting tower speakers for my HT. I have been bouncing around the forums/internet and see two options; build a pair (I was looking at the thread http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/68531-new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html)
Or buying a pair (cuz the ad is currently on the top of my screen The Best Small Tower Speaker of your life - Intimus 5T - Aperion Audio)

1. I was wondering what the differences would be between these speakers. Please answer in language intended for an eight year old, I am only an enthusiast! :eek:

2. Are there more DIY project for MTM style speakers because of the complexity of a TMMWW style cabinet or because the sub should take away the necessity of the woofers in that scenario?

3. Why in builds is there an advantage to rounding exterior corners (on bracing) and not interior corners (inside of the cabinet where the side meets the back/front/etc)

4. Why are frequencies only split once in an MTM speaker. eg. tweeter >2000Hz / midrange < 2000 Hz. Wouldn't the sound get clearer if you split what the two mids were responsible for?

Answers for these that I have found are either over my head or "just cuz". Thanks for any help, want to get my tower ideas staightened out before my birthday in May.:D
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
You'll almost definitely get better answers after mine, but I can try to help.

1. I would say some of the main differences would be in the quality of components. The DM and Paul speakers have better individual components than the Aperion (which isn't to say the Aperion is necessarily low quality). But when you factor out the labor costs for assembling and all the other overhead that a company like Aperion has into their speakers you end up with more money for less "stuff"

2. Well I think those are two separate questions. The first being about the complexity, to which I have no answer. The second part about the necessity of the subwoofers I can say that it really depends on what your uses are. If you plan to use for HT (in which case you will almost definitely have a sub and crossover to the sub) the woofers aren't necessary and it's actually wasted money if you have quality mids. If your main use is music and you like to listen in stereo then towers with woofers that can dig deep are almost a necessity. Theres a lot more to it, but thats the short answer.

3. Not sure.

4. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's because it would be a waste of money. A mid performing at only half or so of its usable range is like using serious woofers on your towers when you just cross over to the sub. Again, with quality components they will handle their frequency range just fine. I should also say it has to do with a lot of theory and science about sound waves and other "stuff," that is a bit over my head.

Corrections/additions anyone?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
1. I was wondering what the differences would be between these speakers (ER18 MTM or Aperion Intimus 5T). Please answer in language intended for an eight year old, I am only an enthusiast! :eek:
I heard an Aperion tower about 2 years ago and it wasn't bad. I'm sorry but I don't remember more details or even the model.

Cost – Intimus 5Ts are about $1000 a pair, ER18 MTMs are $600 (dome tweet version) or $681 (ribbon tweet version) for the parts alone. Lumber and labor are extra, and are your choice.

In my own opinion, the ER18 MTM's sound is somewhere between the the $2000 Salk SongTower and the $4500 Salk HT2-TL. I like to think of it as a poor man's HT2-TL.

Size – Intimus 5Ts cabinets are smaller 38"H × 6.3"W × 8"D, ER18 MTM cabs are larger 44½"H × 9"W × 13½"D and much heavier.

Bass Depth – Intimus 5Ts go down to 55 Hz, ER18 MTM go down to 35 Hz.

I'm going to guess that the more expensive SEAS ER18 midwoofers will handle more power and in general sound better, but that is a guess based on the good reputation SEAS has earned. I don't know who makes the Intimus woofers or the tweeter. The Dayton RS28 dome or the Fountek ribbon tweeter (both are options in the ER18 MTM) are both very good known performers.

Dennis Murphy has a well-known reputation among DIY builders for designing speakers with a very clear and clean sound across the midrange which includes the crossover region. The ER18 MTM is a good example of that. He is also the designer of the Philharmonic Audio speakers, and most of the Salk speakers.

I know little about the Aperion designer, but I suspect he also knows what he is doing. Aperion is a small company where the designer might be the owner, or if not the owner, he is in a position where he could control the product design enough to prevent the marketing department from mucking up the design.

2. Are there more DIY project for MTM style speakers because of the complexity of a TMMWW style cabinet or because the sub should take away the necessity of the woofers in that scenario?
Yes a TMMWW speaker is much more complex to build and more expensive to pay for. An MTM such as the ER18 with two quality SEAS 7" woofers can dig deep enough, down to about 35 Hz, to do fine for music without a sub. The deeper sound effects in movies is better done with a sub or two.

3. Why in builds is there an advantage to rounding exterior corners (on bracing) and not interior corners (inside of the cabinet where the side meets the back/front/etc)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "rounding exterior corners on bracing". Braces are on the inside of the cabinet.

The only edges that benefit from being rounded over are on the outside of the cabinet, on the front panel (called the baffle). The vertical side edges of the front baffle, if sharp, can become secondary sound sources in the mid and upper treble range – a physical process called diffraction. These can interfere with the sound from the tweeter itself and create unwanted peaks in the sound. If these outside front edges are rounded over, it minimizes this problem. For the same reason of avoiding diffraction peaks, the tweeter can be mounted slightly off center.

Rounding over other exterior edges has a nice appearance, but has no audible purpose. Rounded over edges inside the cabinet will not be seen or heard.

4. Why are frequencies only split once in an MTM speaker. eg. tweeter >2000Hz / midrange < 2000 Hz. Wouldn't the sound get clearer if you split what the two mids were responsible for?
You are describing what is called a 2½ way speaker. Some are good and some aren't, just like with MTM 2-way designs. Broad generalizations can be too broad and too general. The devil is in the details.

I hope some of this helps. If you want a pdf file of the ER18 MTM plans, send me a PM with your email address.

Richard
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
1. I was wondering what the differences would be between these speakers. Please answer in language intended for an eight year old, I am only an enthusiast! :eek:
NO YOU CAN'T BUY A NEW PS3 WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE ONE YOU HAVE?!

2. Are there more DIY project for MTM style speakers because of the complexity of a TMMWW style cabinet or because the sub should take away the necessity of the woofers in that scenario?
There's a few reasons. I think DIYers like the simplicity of the MTM for starters. The lobing in the crossover region is symmetrical in the vertical axis as well.

ALso, a 3-way speaker like a TMMWW or MTMWW or even an TMW, is expensive and difficult. Many DIYers just don't want that headache. The cabinet design for larger woofers gets heavy but that's only part of it. 3-way crossovers require pricy parts and even with sims take a lot of tweaking to get "just right". Assuming crossovers are a necessary evil - the more of them you have the more potential for error you introduce.

I don't think a sub is a substitute for a woofer, though. A true woofer realistically operates in the vital 60hz to 300hz region where SPL demands are high. A subwoofer realistically covers 15hz to 100hz. That leaves just short of two octaves where subs, nor midranges, really cut the mustard in larger rooms, especially if you prefer the ability to reproduce full dynamic range. There's only so far you can push a pair of 6.5" woofers and their relatively small voice coils, with a typical 87db sensitivity.

Here is a WMTMW speaker:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=230128

That may interest you.

3. Why in builds is there an advantage to rounding exterior corners (on bracing) and not interior corners (inside of the cabinet where the side meets the back/front/etc)
I don't quite follow. The reason for rounding exterior corners is that it redirects the diffracted sound. So instead of the diffracted sound returning to your ears as a phantom source (bad for imaging and may also be offensive at higher SPLs) it becomes part of the reverbant sound.

4. Why are frequencies only split once in an MTM speaker. eg. tweeter >2000Hz / midrange < 2000 Hz. Wouldn't the sound get clearer if you split what the two mids were responsible for?
One of the goals of a vertical MTM, whether correct or not, is to reduce floor/ceiling interaction. Therefore it is desirable in an MTM to cause vertical cancellations. But as you probably suspect, it can create more imbalance in the vertical sound than it "corrects" for - however it also increases max SPL in that frequency region. In a speaker like you describe, getting flat response becomes a bit trickier. The key is roll in the woofer only operating in the bass, at the frequency where the baffle step occurs (where sound starts to radiate not only forward, but also backward). By doing this, the second woofer ensures more SPL gets aimed forward. But if doing this, it is more advantageous to get the second woofer closer to the floor altogether, in order to "randomize" the floor-bounce cancellation. Therefore TMMs make more sense for this kind of speaker, with wider driver spacing.
 
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