Why is the volume of my sub so quiet with my new Crown amp?

I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
I am actually using annunakis build he modeled for me... It ends up being 5.25ft3 with a port 4" x 15" x 70.5". And I will have it braced very well and made of birch ply.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I am actually using annunakis build he modeled for me... It ends up being 5.25ft3 with a port 4" x 15" x 70.5". And I will have it braced very well and made of birch ply.
That thing will be a beast. You may want to crossover at around 60hz with that long of a port, but you can decided after experimenting a bit.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am actually using annunakis build he modeled for me... It ends up being 5.25ft3 with a port 4" x 15" x 70.5". And I will have it braced very well and made of birch ply.
I would use a shorter port. The one I modeled for you has a vent velocity of 18 m/sec at full power, which is very acceptable and won't chuff. The vent resonance of a 70.5" port is 93 Hz, that in my view is far too low. A slightly higher but very acceptable vent velocity is in my view a much better trade off. Your other option would be to use ABRs rather than ports.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I would use a shorter port. The one I modeled for you has a vent velocity of 18 m/sec at full power, which is very acceptable and won't chuff. The vent resonance of a 70.5" port is 93 Hz, that in my view is far too low. A slightly higher but very acceptable vent velocity is in my view a much better trade off. Your other option would be to use ABRs rather than ports.
I too am concerned unless he plans a low crossover point.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I too am concerned unless he plans a low crossover point.
He will need a low crossover point, if you crossed at 80 Hz that port will honk like the devil.

At 60 hz the driver will still only be 12 db down with a fourth order crossover. It will require a fourth order crossover at 45 Hz to be down by 24 db at port resonance.
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
Well Annunaki is the one that figured that port for me... should I still tune it at 20 hz but with a smaller port? That would make the box considerably smaller as well!
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
I have a Samson S-Convert in trade with some cash on the way for my old O audio BASH 500 watt amp.
If you don't have a pair of XLR cables on hand, pick some up this weekend.

You'll need to plug RCA cables into the S-Convert, and go XLR from the S-Convert to the amp.

I would've waited to try the XLS1000 with the S-Convert myself, but more power certainly won't hurt anything. And objectively the XLS 1500/2000/2500 do have a lower noise floor than the XLS1000, so it's objectively a better amp. (Though with inefficient drivers like the W7's, not a big issue.)
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
Heres what Im thinking for the new box and port... 5.25ft3 tuned at 20hz... port dimensions 3" x 15" x 52". Would this be better port dimensions?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Well Annunaki is the one that figured that port for me... should I still tune it at 20 hz but with a smaller port? That would make the box considerably smaller as well!
Your problem is that port is an organ pipe. It is an open pipe where the wave length is twice the length of the pipe. That pipe has a cross section of 60 sq inches. If you excite the resonance just above 90 Hz it will sound like a lovely wood flu pipe on a historic organ. It will be rich in even harmonics too, with a good deal of output at 180 Hz, 360 Hz and 720 Hz.

Now this is beautiful in a pipe organ but not a speaker.

Now my port has an air speed velocity of 18 m/sec. Would it be better to be 10 or 12 Hz? Sure, but not at the expense of having a port resonance at around 90 Hz.

Even with my model, port resonance is still around 120 Hz, but at least that will allow a 60 Hz crossover point fourth order.

If you want to avid this problem with a resonant enclosure, then we need to model it with ABRs rather than a port, and that will make your enclosure a lot smaller, since you won't have the volume of a large port to contend with. But then I'm guessing you will need two ABRs in each sub, and the expense of them.

Your other option is sealed, which since these drivers are fairly high Qts is in my view the better option for those drivers. Box Pro strongly favors a sealed alignment for those drivers. If it was me I would definitely choose a sealed design with Eq for those. The drivers are good enough to take the Eq, and you have bought enough power to do it. The boxes will be smaller and cheaper to build. A 1,5 cu.ft box gives you a Qt of 0.6 which is really sweet and will not cause the bass to bloom.

I'm certain the designer of that driver had sealed alignment in mind. With two, in a domestic situation you will have far more than enough spl.
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
TLS Guy: I changed my port dimensions to 3" x 15" x 52" in a 5.25ft3 box tuned at 20hz... would this be better? The simple Kappa Perfect builds vent is12" x 3" x 55" or so right?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS Guy: I changed my port dimensions to 3" x 15" x 52" in a 5.25ft3 box tuned at 20hz... would this be better? The simple Kappa Perfect builds vent is12" x 3" x 55" or so right?
What is Vb in other words, the box volume before the port volume driver and braces.

The vented design I sent you was the optimal trade off between bass extension and spl. You never want to drive a speaker much below Fs and the design I sent you has an F3 of 22 Hz which is fantastic. You don't need to go lower than that.

The vent size in my view is the optimal trade off between port resonance and vent air speed.

All good designs are the sum of the compromises made. Never focus on one parameter.
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
I see your box for the 12W7AE is smaller than what looked best tuned at 22hz. I think 4.25ft3 looks perfect tuned at 22hz. It digs just a bit deeper and the port can be 3" x 15" x 53.5"
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I see your box for the 12W7AE is smaller than what looked best tuned at 22hz. I think 4.25ft3 looks perfect tuned at 22hz. It digs just a bit deeper and the port can be 3" x 15" x 53.5"
I think you will have plenty of air in that box too. The nice thing is you can always put those drivers in a sealed box too. They are very versatile.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I see your box for the 12W7AE is smaller than what looked best tuned at 22hz. I think 4.25ft3 looks perfect tuned at 22hz. It digs just a bit deeper and the port can be 3" x 15" x 53.5"
Your model has a spec identical to mine, except you lower F3 by 2 Hz. You will not hear that.

Port air velocities are identical and the port lengths are very close and will make no difference.

So either box will sound the same. Its your box, so build the bigger box if you want, it will make no difference, the box will be bigger you will use more materials, and the bigger the box the greater the chance of panel resonance.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Your model has a spec identical to mine, except you lower F3 by 2 Hz. You will not hear that.

Port air velocities are identical and the port lengths are very close and will make no difference.

So either box will sound the same. Its your box, so build the bigger box if you want, it will make no difference, the box will be bigger you will use more materials, and the bigger the box the greater the chance of panel resonance.
He does have slightly more headroom with your build. Extension vs headroom is always the tradeoff. I prefer a little more headroom myself.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
He does have slightly more headroom with your build. Extension vs headroom is always the tradeoff. I prefer a little more headroom myself.
Yes, we have traveled down this road a few times before. The optimal box is where the F3 reaches the law of diminishing returns. My box extends F3 to that point and is 5 Hz below F3 so that will actually be the max limit. The larger box probably will not give that extra 2 Hz anyway, no matter what the model shows, as it is getting too far from Fs which as you and I know is around the actual limit of what the driver can do. That is a high Qt driver, so the model is almost certainly optimistic, as distortion is going to rise fast below Fs and you could make a very good case with that driver for setting the high pass filter at 25 Hz. With room gain that will get you down to 20 Hz easily.

The calculated F3 of my main speakers is 27 Hz, and the impedance plots show it is right there. However in room the F3 consistently measures to 20 Hz. Real Steel threatens you with bodily injury, and shakes your internal organs and the floor, much to my grandchildren's delight.

The larger box as you point out, you are loosing output and not gaining any useful bass extension. So yes, in all likely hood the smaller box will not only be the better performer, but have better SQ.

Models only get you so far and then common sense and experience have to get you to the optimal point.

As I always say: - Do you want to be more nearly correct or precisely wrong? Those pretty are much your options in a situation like this.
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
Ok I will go with your design after reading what you said... with one little change... you said roughly 3.5ft3 after all displacements and said the port would be 2.5" x 14" x 56.5" but with 2.5" x 14" the length only needs to be 50.8" i think with 3.5ft3.... let me know if this is correct. Thanks everyone for helping me out!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok I will go with your design after reading what you said... with one little change... you said roughly 3.5ft3 after all displacements and said the port would be 2.5" x 14" x 56.5" but with 2.5" x 14" the length only needs to be 50.8" i think with 3.5ft3.... let me know if this is correct. Thanks everyone for helping me out!
56.5 was the length calculated by Box Pro. However, I have modeled it with the 50.8 inch length and it does not change anything in any significant way. F3 is unchanged.

So you can take your pick.
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
Thanks TLSGuy you have been very helpful! Just need the enclosures made now!
 
I

Inertia

Full Audioholic
I was just looking at the size box of the simple kappa perfect build and the box is 6ft^3 before any displacements.. I have the JL W7 in it now and so that displaces .14ft^3 and the port which is 3" x 12.5" x 55" displaces 1.9ft^3 and the bracing I guessed displaces .50ft^3. So this leaves us with 3.46ft^3 after all displacements and the port is tuned at 22hz! TLSGuy: this is almost the same size box you called for for me... should I just have another one of these made for me for my other W7? Let me know what you think! Oh and by the way I have one of the W7AE's in the simple kappa peerfect build and it sounds amazing!
 
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