The never ending amp journey

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...take ~$2k out of your electronics budget by getting a decent receiver (I still say the Anthem I mentioned is the best choice, because it has the best room correction system of all the AVR's mentioned, but none of them will be worse than that Marantz preamp you seem to like) and transfer it to your multisub budget...

So you don't like the Marantz?

Is it because it has Audyssey RC?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've never experienced hum with AVRs.

But I have experienced amp hums. In fact, I would have amp hum noise in my system right now if it weren't for a ground loop filter I bought on Amazon.

I cannot stand any kind of hum noise. Just knowing that my system has hum noise upsets me.

 

[fuzz092888]

Not a good picture, but a total of 2050 watts for under $600.oo. I don't think that's a bad investment.

Thanks Walter, looks good I'll have to ask you about these when we meet up.

 

[GranteedEV]

Don't see an issue there. 3.8V is...

I wasn't complaining about the 5308. I was saying that the 3310 could have around 1V.

Furthermore, the amp's input circuitry cannot take unlimited voltage. Many consumer amps will clip all over an input of 8V. Too much gain on the front end of the amp can be just as bad as too much gain inside the amp.

We're talking about having headroom, not a higher preamp gain here. If the audio content has headroom that causes anything to clip when proper gain stage matching is done, then there is an equipment issue whether that's a preamp input, preamp output, crossover, amp input, amp output... whatever it is. The solution isn't turn the amp gain up and introduce a higher noise floor.

Except maybe for a prettier or smaller case, I fail to see what Hypex modules will do that the aforementioned Crown XLS Drivecore amp won't.

What's your... point? That's just a repeat of what I said earlier. But if someone wants to irrational (IE Human not Computer Programming) then everything you just said goes out the window.

 

[DS-21]

So you don't like the Marantz?

Is it because it has Audyssey RC?

The only area in which any of these boxes materially differ (in terms of sonics, at least) is in the room correction system used. Except for the styling of the front faceplate, there's little to choose between corporate siblings Denon and Marantz.

Both ARC and Audyssey MultEQ seem better than other RC systems available in reasonably-priced AVR's, though I've not experienced Trinnov as found in the Sherwood R-972. But between them, I much prefer ARC to Audyssey with the caveat that I would never ever consider the kinds of incompetently-designed loudspeakers that dominate the consumer audio market and for which Audyssey really designed their room correction system. (Hence the infernal, undefeatable notch.) Because of that, I prefer the Anthem part to similarly-priced Denon/Marantz/Onkyo parts. But I wouldn't say I "don't like" the Marantz. If anything, I like the way the Marantz boxes are styled better than any of the others, including the Anthem, Arcam, Cambridge, etc.

I don't, however, think Denon's after-sales support is good enough, given the prices they charge. Perhaps it's adequate for $300 disposable AVR's, but not four-figure ones where the purchaser has a reasonable expectation of durability. Given that Denon and Marantz's support is unified*, that biases me strongly against any new Denon or Marantz product. If the Marantz box came from a company with better after-sales support, and offered ARC, that would've been my choice,.

*McIntosh's, from my understanding, is still separate. For now at least.

I've never experienced hum with AVRs.

Ditto. I have, however, heard whooshing noises from AVRs, suggesting something was poorly designed or assembled in their audio circuitry.

But when one thinks about it, an AVR is potentially the best solution sonically. The signal paths are as short as possible, parts are designed to be matched together (often on the same chip), and signal wire routing is precisely known. As an aside, that's also why, given equivalent power, a chip-amp is going to be a superior solution to more expensive discrete parts. Look up Geddes' discussion of zero-crossing performance, or Linkwitz's discussion of thermal tracking.

However, the "high end" always disdained receivers, for economic rather than sonic reasons: multiple boxes means higher revenue for dealers. Both in the initial purchase, and in the silly upgrade carousel.

 

[DS-21]

I wasn't complaining about the 5308. I was saying that the 3310 could have around 1V.

Even that's fine for many amps. Not all, of course. It's notably insufficient to drive the NHT A1 monoblocs (and Outlaw's knockoffs thereof) to full power, for example. It's also not enough to drive most Brystons to more than 100W output (all their amps are 1V in for 100W out, regardless of ultimate output capability), or to get full output from a Crown XLS Drivecore or Anthem MCA-series amp.

We're talking about having headroom, not a higher preamp gain here.

Um, where do you think that extra voltage comes from? Hint: higher preamp gain.

I see no value in a preamp having so much gain that it'll easily clip the input stage of most power amps. And remember, many if not most "high end" multichannel amps lack input attenuators/gain controls. I think that's a retarded omission, but it is reality.

What's your... point?

My point is that your statement, "those Philharmonics deserve these Ncore modules," was simply not based in sonic reality. And aesthetics are subjective...but when I look at that Theta amp people here seem to think is so attractive, my first thought was that the faceplate looked like a stingray's vagina.

But if someone wants to irrational (IE Human not Computer Programming) then everything you just said goes out the window.

How so? Remember, my statement was that unless one puts a premium on a smaller case, a prettier case, or (though I didn't mentioned it above, I'll add it here) a different form-factor (which, for the record, are all subjective, or as you rather bizarrely put it, "irrational," preference considerations) I fail to see what Hypex modules will do that the aforementioned Crown XLS Drivecore amp won't.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wasn't complaining about the 5308. I was saying that the 3310 could have around 1V.

I just called Denon tech support & asked about the pre-out voltage.

They claim that the AVR-3310 pre-out is 2V.

But, of course, they could be lying since most of them are incompetent anyway.

 

[fuzz092888]

Alrighty, I thank you all for the suggestion, one thing that I just want to clear up is that I'm not disputing the need for subwoofers, and I do want to add them, one or multiple is a discussion for another thread

Why I chose the Phil 3 over the Phil 2:

A bit more bass extension never hurt, and will sound better during stereo use, especially until I figure out subs.

Probably the biggest reason is be boxes, I know it sounds silly and a bit trivial, but I don't want black. The cost of custom boxes, combined with the fact that a custom Phil 2 raises the cost significantly, and the custom box is the same size as the Phil 3 changing the sound characteristics slightly (I'm not sure how exactly and I know Dennis would help me out in this area). So I chose the 3, for not an extreme additional cost of about 300 bucks.

Would it make more sense to snag the Phil 2s and the subs, almost definitely, but I'm disenchanted with the black and for 300 I really see no downside to up grading. This being said, I will reiterate the fact that I'm not dead set, entrenched in the idea of anything and I'm still weighing my options. However, if I do choose to go the way of the Phils it will be the 3. That much I have figured out if nothing else.


Also, a quick thanks to psbfan9 for the integra suggestion. I'll be sure to add it to the list . Which seems to be getting longer instead of shorter............

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

[1V pre-out]...Even that's fine for many amps...

Um, where do you think that extra voltage comes from? Hint: higher preamp gain.

I see no value in a preamp having so much gain that it'll easily clip the input stage of most power amps....

So let's say the Denon 3310 has 1V pre-out (assume Denon tech is lying).

If we increase the Speaker Channel Levels from +0.0dB to +4.0dB, we would effectively increase the pre-out voltage from 1V to 2V or 3V, etc?

So the Marantz AVR that has a 7V pre-out basically has the Channel Levels set much higher than the Denon counterparts (even though it still says "0.0dB" on the Channel Level) ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Alrighty, I thank you all for the suggestion, one thing that I just want to clear up is that I'm not disputing the need for subwoofers, and I do want to add them, one or multiple is a discussion for another thread

Why I chose the Phil 3 over the Phil 2:

A bit more bass extension never hurt, and will sound better during stereo use, especially until I figure out subs.

Probably the biggest reason is be boxes, I know it sounds silly and a bit trivial, but I don't want black. The cost of custom boxes, combined with the fact that a custom Phil 2 raises the cost significantly, and the custom box is the same size as the Phil 3 changing the sound characteristics slightly (I'm not sure how exactly and I know Dennis would help me out in this area). So I chose the 3, for not an extreme additional cost of about 300 bucks.

Would it make more sense to snag the Phil 2s and the subs, almost definitely, but I'm disenchanted with the black and for 300 I really see no downside to up grading. This being said, I will reiterate the fact that I'm not dead set, entrenched in the idea of anything and I'm still weighing my options. However, if I do choose to go the way of the Phils it will be the 3. That much I have figured out if nothing else.

Well, I'm getting the Phil3. I don't like to have what "everyone" has either. I like to be special.

Phil2 will look just fine to most people for $1K less. But not to me.

If you have the budget, of course get the Phil3.

 

[DS-21]

So let's say the Denon 3310 has 1V pre-out (assume Denon tech is lying).

If we increase the Speaker Channel Levels from +0.0dB to +4.0dB, we would effectively increase the pre-out voltage from 1V to 2V or 3V, etc?

Too many variables to say, though if at 0.0dB average the pre is outputting 1V average, then at +4dB from that it will output 2.somethingV average. (3dB = doubling voltage.) However, the chances of requiring 1V average for a 0.0dB calibration are nil unless one has ridiculously inefficient loudspeakers or amps with unreasonably high-voltage input sensitivity. For instance, using a Bryston amp (all have input sensitivity of 1V for 100W, with the higher-powered units have commensurately higher voltage requirements for more power), that means the loudspeakers are just 65dB/1W sensitive at the mike position.

Here's how I look at it. The system calibrates the volume knob to read 0.0 for a given in-room SPL. (Generally 85dB, but that's not important; the same discussion would apply if 0.0 were 60dB, or 130dB.) What actual voltage that leads to at different stages is the product of three variables.

(1) loudspeaker efficiency
(2) amplifier input sensitivity
(3) amplifier power

Only if the preamp level is inadequate to drive those loudspeakers powered by those amps to the desired average and peak levels, without itself clipping or being so high as to clip the amp's input circuitry, does it really matter.

(I am, for these purposes, ignoring noise. It's often good practice to run hotter line-level signals, to lower noise. However, given that many if not most consumer "high end" amps lack input attentuation/gain controls, that's generally not an option.

So the Marantz AVRs that have a 7V pre-out basically has the Channel Level set much higher than the Denon counterparts (even though it still says "0.0dB" on the Channel Level) ?

No. Given the same calibration, using amps with the same power and input sensitivity that are driving the same loudspeakers, any two preamp stages will have the same actual voltage output. It's just like having a 500W amp doesn't mean that 500W are always output.

 

[templemaners]

Well, I'm getting the Phil3. I don't like to have what "everyone" has either. I like to be special.

Phil2 will look just fine to most people for $1K less. But not to me.

If you have the budget, of course get the Phil3.

We need to persuade you to get or try out some Catalyst 12C's or Triple 12HT's. Just saying, that would be interesting to hear your thoughs... different type of speaker than you've accumulated in that Noah's Ark of audio goodness

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Given the same calibration, using amps with the same power and input sensitivity that are driving the same loudspeakers, any two preamp stages will have the same actual voltage output. It's just like having a 500W amp doesn't mean that 500W are always output.

So....having a 500wpc amp is a good thing just in case you need it.

But.....having a 7V pre-out isn't necessarily a good thing?

I'm not quite there yet.

Going back to the 1V pre-out AVR. A person could easily increase the Speaker Channel Level to boost the pre-out voltage to 2V o 3V if needed?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We need to persuade you to get or try out some Catalyst 12C's or Triple 12HT's. Just saying, that would be interesting to hear your thoughs... different type of speaker than you've accumulated in that Noah's Ark of audio goodness

Like spending my money much?

As I was telling GranteedEV, the only other speaker I might upgrade is the P362 in my family room.

You think the Triple 12 will sound great for karaoke?

 

[templemaners]

Like spending my money much?

Well, I don't get any particular joy out of it, but you have to admit, it has turned into a bit of a forum pastime. Besides, don't blame us for your new gear addiction!

As I was telling GranteedEV, the only other speaker I might upgrade is the P362 in my family room.

You think the Triple 12 will sound great for karaoke?

That depends - how awful are the people you have doing karaoke? 95db+ per watt speakers might not be the best thing for karaoke - 65db sensitive speakers with a SET amp might be better...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, I don't get any particular joy out of it, but you have to admit, it has turned into a bit of a forum pastime. Besides, don't blame us for your new gear addiction!

That depends - how awful are the people you have doing karaoke? 95db+ per watt speakers might not be the best thing for karaoke - 65db sensitive speakers with a SET amp might be better...

JTR Triple-8 is frontrunner right now to replace P362. We'll see.

Spending my money!

 

[templemaners]

JTR Triple-8 is frontrunner right now to replace P362. We'll see.

Now we're talking! If you do get a pair, be sure to try them out in your projector room to see how they are with movies. Assuming you even have room in there...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now we're talking! If you do get a pair, be sure to try them out in your projector room to see how they are with movies. Assuming you even have room in there...

I started a thread in Speakers section:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/78830-upgrading-p362-pl-200-a.html

 

[psbfan9]

I chose the Phil 3

I think that's a great choice. If you're going to add a center channel, I would think the best match would be another Phil 3. It would have the same build quality and be perfectly timbre matched to the L/R. But, that can come later.

Now, about that amp....

Good luck Fuzz!

 

[Haoleb]

Yes, they do. OSHA set the minimum standards, and certify the private labs (UL, etc.) as NRTL's. Please see the link I posted. Some choice quotes, with emphasis added:

Dude, read carefully the text on your own link. OSHA, does not have any authority over independent testing labs and does not certify products or the labs themselves. All that link tells you is that OSHA recognizes products that carry those testing labs certification marks.

If they're willing to skimp on something as basic as safety certification, it makes me where else they're cheaping out.

I think you'll find many manufacturers of amplifiers do not have any safety certification and that their quality is superior to that of many that do... Just sayin.