Epik Legend vs. HSU VTF-3 MK3 vs. SVS PB12-NSD

[shadyJ]

The one drawback for near-field placement is localizability. Nothing really beat it for punch though. I wouldn't bother with the turbo. I had one and realized it wasn't worth its awkward appearance. It strengthened output at the bottom of the tuning point, but that point (16 hz) was so low you couldn't hear it anyway.

To really defeat localization, get two subs up front next to your left and right mains. To help mitigate localization right now, lower the crossover point in the receiver to something that the speakers can handle, like say 60 hz. The higher your crossover is, the more localizable the sub will be. What's nice about two subs located next to your left and right mains is that, if you wish, you can raise the crossover if you want to get stronger upper bass from 80 to 120 hz or more, and still not have to worry about localization. I have the best of both worlds, two subs up front next to the mains (LFM-1 EXs) and two subs flanking my couch (VTF3s), so with some music and movies I really take a beating. A drum'n'bass track at -5 is a bruising experience here.

 

[razzy]

The one drawback for near-field placement is localizability. Nothing really beat it for punch though. I wouldn't bother with the turbo. I had one and realized it wasn't worth its awkward appearance. It strengthened output at the bottom of the tuning point, but that point (16 hz) was so low you couldn't hear it anyway.

To really defeat localization, get two subs up front next to your left and right mains. To help mitigate localization right now, lower the crossover point in the receiver to something that the speakers can handle, like say 60 hz. The higher your crossover is, the more localizable the sub will be. What's nice about two subs located next to your left and right mains is that, if you wish, you can raise the crossover if you want to get stronger upper bass from 80 to 120 hz or more, and still not have to worry about localization. I have the best of both worlds, two subs up front next to the mains (LFM-1 EXs) and two subs flanking my couch (VTF3s), so with some music and movies I really take a beating. A drum'n'bass track at -5 is a bruising experience here.

that is a nasty setup! wow!

okay i'll try to adjust the crossover to see how much of a difference it makes...i'll try 60hz like you suggested

what would you recommend i do for down the road- add another vtf3.3 or sell the one i have and get something larger or possibly two of something larger?

i'm going to call HSU in a few minutes to see if I can get more smash out of this thing to keep me for the time being by adjusting placement etc.- i guess i got a bit spoiled from the dual JL audio 10W7's i have custom mounted in my toyota supra...they really pressurize that cabin with clean tight bass!

i guess i expected the same from the HSU for my room but it's not quite like that right now.

 

[timoteo]

Razzy, the worst thing you could do is compare your vehicles subs to what your home theaters bass sounds like. Your dealing with to COMPLETELY different animals. The cabin size of your little toyota vs the space of your home. No comparison!!! You put the HSU in a vehicle & youd see what i mean.

I think your expectations may be too high.

But in the end, if the VTF3/3 isnt gonna make you happy then going bigger & badder may be in order. You had a budget in mind & got one of the best subs within that budget. If your looking for the type of bass your car has then your wallet is gonna have to get a bit lighter.

Please describe whats missing?

I know with my system i have found that just locating a decent spot in the room for the sub, placing it there & running YPAO just doesnt cut it. I have spent HOURS measuring, adjusting & EQing to get my bass as flat as possible. It made all the difference in the world. If you are getting a peaky response then the bass i going to sound horrible. Its the interaction with the room that does this not the sub being bad. To me it sounds like you could benefit from a Real Time Analysis. If you can see whats going on as far as your frequency response you can take steps to correct the problem if there is one.

 

[shadyJ]

that is a nasty setup! wow!

okay i'll try to adjust the crossover to see how much of a difference it makes...i'll try 60hz like you suggested

what would you recommend i do for down the road- add another vtf3.3 or sell the one i have and get something larger or possibly two of something larger?

i'm going to call HSU in a few minutes to see if I can get more smash out of this thing to keep me for the time being by adjusting placement etc.- i guess i got a bit spoiled from the dual JL audio 10W7's i have custom mounted in my toyota supra...they really pressurize that cabin with clean tight bass!

i guess i expected the same from the HSU for my room but it's not quite like that right now.

If you can afford bigger and better subs, there is no reason not to go that way, I suppose. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend. A bigger sub won't really solve the problem of localization though, and you may still have that issue even if the larger sub was placed up front. The only way to really kill that is multiple subs.

I am pretty value conscious myself, of the four subs I listed above, I bought three of them used and the new one was on sale for $630. I got killer deals on the used ones, payed 425 for the VTF3 and 350 for each of the LFM-1 EXs. If you wait long enough, you will see a great deal. If you are on a tight budget, that is what I would do. Regularly check ebay, craigslist, audiogon, the classified section at AVSforum, audioholics, and other message board classifieds like Klipsch forums, Hsu forums classifieds, Home Theater Shack, etc. Keep your eyes open for VTF3s, VTF2s, LFM-1 Pluses, and LFM-1 EXs. Those subs are all so similar that they will play very well with each other. Keep an eye on Hsu's B-stock and Outlaw's B-stock section, sometimes you can get outstanding deals there simply because a sub has a scratch. You could probably mix other subs with similar performance without much worry as well, like the SVS PB12-NSD and Elemental Designs A3-300. You just don't want to mix subs with very different frequency responses and output capabilities.

 

[razzy]

Razzy, the worst thing you could do is compare your vehicles subs to what your home theaters bass sounds like. Your dealing with to COMPLETELY different animals. The cabin size of your little toyota vs the space of your home. No comparison!!! You put the HSU in a vehicle & youd see what i mean.

I think your expectations may be too high.

But in the end, if the VTF3/3 isnt gonna make you happy then going bigger & badder may be in order. You had a budget in mind & got one of the best subs within that budget. If your looking for the type of bass your car has then your wallet is gonna have to get a bit lighter.

Please describe whats missing?

I know with my system i have found that just locating a decent spot in the room for the sub, placing it there & running YPAO just doesnt cut it. I have spent HOURS measuring, adjusting & EQing to get my bass as flat as possible. It made all the difference in the world. If you are getting a peaky response then the bass i going to sound horrible. Its the interaction with the room that does this not the sub being bad. To me it sounds like you could benefit from a Real Time Analysis. If you can see whats going on as far as your frequency response you can take steps to correct the problem if there is one.

i know you can't compare them exactly but the stereo in my car is a reference point for me any way i look at it b/c i've "heard" it- i totally understand its a completely different situation in my room

i think you are right- i did the best i could for my budget now but in the future something else can be done to add to/revise my setup, BUT for now i'm detirmined to get the best out of what i have

if you read my last 2 posts on page six you'll see what i wrote about what's missing in my mind about this

yes what you said is true- i spoke with pete from HSU last night for about 30 mins and he suggested what you are saying also- he asked me to email him for the test tones mp3s and to take readings in each spot possible on both 0 and 180 deg. phases and measure the SPL/db for each location and phase and pick the one with the highest db level that is most linear across the frequency range and that's the spot for my sub...i'm going to do this today/tomorrow and will post back with what i get- i think it will be a beneficial experiment for me.

If you can afford bigger and better subs, there is no reason not to go that way, I suppose. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend. A bigger sub won't really solve the problem of localization though, and you may still have that issue even if the larger sub was placed up front. The only way to really kill that is multiple subs.

I am pretty value conscious myself, of the four subs I listed above, I bought three of them used and the new one was on sale for $630. I got killer deals on the used ones, payed 425 for the VTF3 and 350 for each of the LFM-1 EXs. If you wait long enough, you will see a great deal. If you are on a tight budget, that is what I would do. Regularly check ebay, craigslist, audiogon, the classified section at AVSforum, audioholics, and other message board classifieds like Klipsch forums, Hsu forums classifieds, Home Theater Shack, etc. Keep your eyes open for VTF3s, VTF2s, LFM-1 Pluses, and LFM-1 EXs. Those subs are all so similar that they will play very well with each other. Keep an eye on Hsu's B-stock and Outlaw's B-stock section, sometimes you can get outstanding deals there simply because a sub has a scratch. You could probably mix other subs with similar performance without much worry as well, like the SVS PB12-NSD and Elemental Designs A3-300. You just don't want to mix subs with very different frequency responses and output capabilities.

yes, i think multiple subs is the way i'm going to have to go however i do have to be patient as i don't have the budget for another sub right now (or i would have gotten something bigger )

i'm also in your boat- value conscious. i will not buy new products as there's no reason to do so if you are willing to wait and find a good deal as you have said. WOW what a fantastic lineup you have for SUCH a low price! you're exactly like me in that regard- i LOVE doing that sort of thing- i take such pride in finding a sick deal for a great price and/or finding something cheap and flipping it for a profit

are those prices for the subs shipped? or were you REALLY fortunate enough to get a local sale? b/c if those are prices inc. shipping then that is SO low of a price lol

so, yes I will definitely take your advice here and wait patiently for a sweet deal like the ones you got!

thanks for those links as well as the comparable subs- that helps a lot

 

[razzy]

wondering if you guys could weigh in on this (tim especially since you've got a yamaha)

i posted this on av forum and wanted to post it here as well



Originally Posted by cel4145
Set the gain (volume) on the sub down very low, the phase at 0, and run the room correction software with your receiver. If the receiver sets the channel/trim level of the sub less than -3db or greater than +3db, adjust the gain on the gain on the back of the sub and repeat until in that range. Then, set all your speakers to small and adjust the crossover on the receiver. 80hz is good to try first. If you need a little more bass, turn the channel level on the receiver up a couple of db.

this was my reply:

hey man this helps me big time! b/c when i run YPAO it tells me to set the gain on the sub to between 10 and 12 o clock and after YPAO it sets the sub to -10db every time! LOL and that's pretty much inaudible.

i remedied it by turning up the db level on my yamaha avr rather than the subs gain b/c i was already at 12 o clock

so i put it from -10 to +3db

should i have done it the other way as you said by tweaking the gain on the sub vs the avr?

and is that a real starting point to begin testing (b/t 10 and 12?) as it doesn't leave much room for increase if you're only turning it up via the sub gain and not the db level on the avr

thanks
Justin

 

[billy p]

wondering if you guys could weigh in on this (tim especially since you've got a yamaha)

i posted this on av forum and wanted to post it here as well



Originally Posted by cel4145
Set the gain (volume) on the sub down very low, the phase at 0, and run the room correction software with your receiver. If the receiver sets the channel/trim level of the sub less than -3db or greater than +3db, adjust the gain on the gain on the back of the sub and repeat until in that range. Then, set all your speakers to small and adjust the crossover on the receiver. 80hz is good to try first. If you need a little more bass, turn the channel level on the receiver up a couple of db.

this was my reply:

hey man this helps me big time! b/c when i run YPAO it tells me to set the gain on the sub to between 10 and 12 o clock and after YPAO it sets the sub to -10db every time! LOL and that's pretty much inaudible.

i remedied it by turning up the db level on my yamaha avr rather than the subs gain b/c i was already at 12 o clock

so i put it from -10 to +3db

should i have done it the other way as you said by tweaking the gain on the sub vs the avr?

and is that a real starting point to begin testing (b/t 10 and 12?) as it doesn't leave much room for increase if you're only turning it up via the sub gain and not the db level on the avr

thanks
Justin

Every sub has a different sensitivity and how it reacts or what level is dependant with room placement. Sounds to me YPAO is compensating here by setting the receivers trim at -10dbs because you've set the sub gain to high. You're correct in using the receiver to adjust the volume or trim levels...I'd set the subs gain at 10 o'clock & set your xover point...then run some test tones & using your SPL metre taking reading on all your speakers(not only the sub) adjust everything at the receiver until you have a seemless soundstage level matched ~75-80 dbs..don't manually set levels by ear.

You can always increase your sub level from the receiver if you like things HOT but do so gradually...

Maybe somebody more knowledgeable or versed will chime in...

 

[timoteo]

Yes BillyP is right. Ive noticed that the HSU volume knobs are sensative & going from about 40% to 50% seems to be a bigger jump in volume than the 10% it emplies. I have both of my HSU subs with their volume knobs at 10:00. I set them there before i run YPAO & leave it there because for me they fall within the -5dB & 0dB window that i shoot for.

If YPAO is setting you subs trim to -10dB then yes, turn down the subs knob & rerun it.

Now something might be happening depending on the placement of your sub. If you are getting a peaky response at your listening location, when YPAO "hears" your sub it would see those peaks & turn down the overall trim to compensate. If those peaks are are at certain frequencies (ones that arent felt) then that could be why you arent hearing the bass you want. This is just a guess of course & would have to be confirmed by measurements.

Your goal is to get your system Flat. In other words, you want all the different frequencies, 20hz-20khz (audible), to play at the same dB at your seat (if played at the same dB from the speakers/sub). Once you get your system close to Flat, the overall sound is very "full", "natural" & "pleasing". Those are probably the best ways for me to describe it. You dont feel like your missing anything, because you arent, your hearing the source the way it was recorded. Now if the recording isnt good, well thats another topic!

Do you listen to any podcasting? I do a lot & 2 of them i like are: HT-Guys & the other is AV-Rant. If you can, listen to the January 5th 2012 Episode of AV-Rant. One of the topics they discuss is AudioCalibration & the different techniques you can use. It was a very good episode. Its free so why not give it a listen ya know!!

Ive heard that an even better disc to use with the SPL Meter is one from RealTraps. The disc has frequencies 18hz-22khz & is in 1dB increments. The HSU disc only has 12 tracks that play the warble tones. Thats only 12 different frequencies. Yes they are the enough to get your system started in the right direction but there are some really good options out there. Im saving up to spend about $250-$300 on some gear/software to get my system more dialed in. Then i can dial in my friends systems as well.

 

[shadyJ]

are those prices for the subs shipped? or were you REALLY fortunate enough to get a local sale? b/c if those are prices inc. shipping then that is SO low of a price lol

so, yes I will definitely take your advice here and wait patiently for a sweet deal like the ones you got!

thanks for those links as well as the comparable subs- that helps a lot

I got the great deals simply by waiting, and it also helps that I live in the Chicago area which helps for local pickup deals. I didn't need or expect to get the additional VTF3 and LFM subs, but I enjoyed the VTF3 that I had so much that when I found these fantastic deals, I decided not to pass them up. I built this system up over a couple of years, so these great deals don't always happen right away but there were a bunch I have passed on simply because I have as many subs as I can handle (I also have two ULS-15s in my bedroom). One great deal that I kind of regret passing was a guy who was willing to sell me his ULS-15s for 600 each. Good lord, I should have taken him up on that one, but I am having a hard time justifying any more sub purchases right now.

 

[timoteo]

Wow ShadyJ i didnt realize you were such a sub collector. You have a great batch of subs!! The dual ULS-15s alone are better then most will ever have & those are in your bedroom

Im sure youve tried them all in different locations & rooms. Have you ever just had the dual ULS subs in the theater alone? Ive always wondered how that combo would do. Well i have sat & listened to dual ULSs at HSU's demo room but id like to know your thoughts after a while of use.

I think in my dream theater one of my sub choices would definately include a ULS-15 QuadDrive, at least as an option. They are just so d@mn clean! Ooooh how about 8 ULS-15s, 2 stacked in each corner!!...sorry im getting a little carried away now. It always fun to spend money, you dont have, in your mind for the money youve spent on subs youve done well.

 

[shadyJ]

I haven't used the ULSs in my home theater, but I have watched movies with them, and they sound terrific, of course. I actually prefer the sound of them, but ported subs do get you a lot more SPL for your dollar, and the VTFs sound great as well. I haven't heard all the Hsu subs, but I would wager their best system would be a ULS quad drive. That would have everything you could want: massive output, extreme low-teens extension, no localization, razor sharp sound quality, and near zero distortion at all but crazy volume levels.

 

[razzy]

Every sub has a different sensitivity and how it reacts or what level is dependant with room placement. Sounds to me YPAO is compensating here by setting the receivers trim at -10dbs because you've set the sub gain to high. You're correct in using the receiver to adjust the volume or trim levels...I'd set the subs gain at 10 o'clock & set your xover point...then run some test tones & using your SPL metre taking reading on all your speakers(not only the sub) adjust everything at the receiver until you have a seemless soundstage level matched ~75-80 dbs..don't manually set levels by ear.

You can always increase your sub level from the receiver if you like things HOT but do so gradually...

Maybe somebody more knowledgeable or versed will chime in...

i'm going to turn the gain down on the sub and try again...i'll be taking measurements in all locations and recording the results so we'll see what's the deal!

 

[razzy]

Yes BillyP is right. Ive noticed that the HSU volume knobs are sensative & going from about 40% to 50% seems to be a bigger jump in volume than the 10% it emplies. I have both of my HSU subs with their volume knobs at 10:00. I set them there before i run YPAO & leave it there because for me they fall within the -5dB & 0dB window that i shoot for.

If YPAO is setting you subs trim to -10dB then yes, turn down the subs knob & rerun it.

Now something might be happening depending on the placement of your sub. If you are getting a peaky response at your listening location, when YPAO "hears" your sub it would see those peaks & turn down the overall trim to compensate. If those peaks are are at certain frequencies (ones that arent felt) then that could be why you arent hearing the bass you want. This is just a guess of course & would have to be confirmed by measurements.

Your goal is to get your system Flat. In other words, you want all the different frequencies, 20hz-20khz (audible), to play at the same dB at your seat (if played at the same dB from the speakers/sub). Once you get your system close to Flat, the overall sound is very "full", "natural" & "pleasing". Those are probably the best ways for me to describe it. You dont feel like your missing anything, because you arent, your hearing the source the way it was recorded. Now if the recording isnt good, well thats another topic!

Do you listen to any podcasting? I do a lot & 2 of them i like are: HT-Guys & the other is AV-Rant. If you can, listen to the January 5th 2012 Episode of AV-Rant. One of the topics they discuss is AudioCalibration & the different techniques you can use. It was a very good episode. Its free so why not give it a listen ya know!!

Ive heard that an even better disc to use with the SPL Meter is one from RealTraps. The disc has frequencies 18hz-22khz & is in 1dB increments. The HSU disc only has 12 tracks that play the warble tones. Thats only 12 different frequencies. Yes they are the enough to get your system started in the right direction but there are some really good options out there. Im saving up to spend about $250-$300 on some gear/software to get my system more dialed in. Then i can dial in my friends systems as well.

this is very interesting. i wonder if that's going on- we shall see!

now, how do i know what db level to use when i start measuring SPLs for all sub locations?

no i don't but that sounds like it would be very informative- i'll check it out for sure thanks

that sounds awesome i wish i lived close to you! haha
the HSU disc will have to do for me for now lol

so do i have to run YPAO at every location and then play music and take SPL measurements following YPAO at each location correct?

 

[razzy]

I got the great deals simply by waiting, and it also helps that I live in the Chicago area which helps for local pickup deals. I didn't need or expect to get the additional VTF3 and LFM subs, but I enjoyed the VTF3 that I had so much that when I found these fantastic deals, I decided not to pass them up. I built this system up over a couple of years, so these great deals don't always happen right away but there were a bunch I have passed on simply because I have as many subs as I can handle (I also have two ULS-15s in my bedroom). One great deal that I kind of regret passing was a guy who was willing to sell me his ULS-15s for 600 each. Good lord, I should have taken him up on that one, but I am having a hard time justifying any more sub purchases right now.

yes that location is definitely an advantage

yes you should have taken those for sure!

haha i would too if i were you though...

Wow ShadyJ i didnt realize you were such a sub collector. You have a great batch of subs!! The dual ULS-15s alone are better then most will ever have & those are in your bedroom

Im sure youve tried them all in different locations & rooms. Have you ever just had the dual ULS subs in the theater alone? Ive always wondered how that combo would do. Well i have sat & listened to dual ULSs at HSU's demo room but id like to know your thoughts after a while of use.

I think in my dream theater one of my sub choices would definately include a ULS-15 QuadDrive, at least as an option. They are just so d@mn clean! Ooooh how about 8 ULS-15s, 2 stacked in each corner!!...sorry im getting a little carried away now. It always fun to spend money, you dont have, in your mind for the money youve spent on subs youve done well.

lol
we're all sick that's why i love this forum bahahaha!

I haven't used the ULSs in my home theater, but I have watched movies with them, and they sound terrific, of course. I actually prefer the sound of them, but ported subs do get you a lot more SPL for your dollar, and the VTFs sound great as well. I haven't heard all the Hsu subs, but I would wager their best system would be a ULS quad drive. That would have everything you could want: massive output, extreme low-teens extension, no localization, razor sharp sound quality, and near zero distortion at all but crazy volume levels.

how much more do you like the dual ULS-15 versus the dual VTF3.3s or the dual EXs? i wish i was close to one of these companies to go check out their stuff!

the closest one to me is outlaw but they don't have the super high end stuff like the vtf-15h and the uls-15 kind of stuff!

 

[cschang]

I haven't used the ULSs in my home theater, but I have watched movies with them, and they sound terrific, of course. I actually prefer the sound of them, but ported subs do get you a lot more SPL for your dollar, and the VTFs sound great as well. I haven't heard all the Hsu subs, but I would wager their best system would be a ULS quad drive. That would have everything you could want: massive output, extreme low-teens extension, no localization, razor sharp sound quality, and near zero distortion at all but crazy volume levels.

I have heard all the Hsu subs.

Probably one of the best HT bass setups I have heard was four ULS-15's and two MBM-12's.....Crazy!! The room was not very big either!

 

[timoteo]

Wow that must have sounded incredible!!

I have thought about getting a second VTF-15H & a second MbM-12. I think that would be comparable to the setup you mentioned. MAYBE not quite the control & even response throughout but id guess a good 90% of that system.

Once you start getting into the multiple ULS subs you really start to get beautiful bass!!

Id love to do a sidebyside comparison of Dual PB-13Ultras & Quad ULS-15s. I know the sheer output would go to the dual Ultras but once the system is EQed to the levels they should be i bet youd be hard pressed to call one the winner! Thats just my guess.

 

[razzy]

so i've spent several hours trying to get levels and its been a total waste of time b/c i'm measuring twice and getting different results each time let alone the tones are giving me a headache and the worst of all is the realization that my room just plain sucks and it is masking the true ability of this new sub of mine...

i moved the sub i went to the back of my room where the stairs end and low and behold that is where all the bass is hiding - and it's escaping up into the ceiling above the stairs to the main level of my house rather than where i want it to go - into my face! lol

at that spot at and around the base of my stairs (which only happens to be ~4.5 feet from where i sit, the bass pressurization is most apparent...

idk what to do or if there is even anything to do

 

[shadyJ]

how much more do you like the dual ULS-15 versus the dual VTF3.3s or the dual EXs? i wish i was close to one of these companies to go check out their stuff!

the closest one to me is outlaw but they don't have the super high end stuff like the vtf-15h and the uls-15 kind of stuff!

The ULS's are my favs, but the VTF3s and LFM-1 EXs are terrific too. Output wise they seem like they are roughly the same, but the ULS sounds cleaner, and its a prettier sub. However, If I had to go without the ULS subs and only had VTF3s, I would still be very happy. The VTF3 and LFMs sound very good, and my home theater beats any commercial theater's sub system that I have heard. I bought the ULS for looks as much as for performance, to me they are closer to the platonic ideal of a subwoofer.

 

[shadyJ]

Wow that must have sounded incredible!!

I have thought about getting a second VTF-15H & a second MbM-12. I think that would be comparable to the setup you mentioned. MAYBE not quite the control & even response throughout but id guess a good 90% of that system.

Once you start getting into the multiple ULS subs you really start to get beautiful bass!!

Id love to do a sidebyside comparison of Dual PB-13Ultras & Quad ULS-15s. I know the sheer output would go to the dual Ultras but once the system is EQed to the levels they should be i bet youd be hard pressed to call one the winner! Thats just my guess.

I'm not so sure the PB13s would have an output advantage in that case. If you have dual ULS subs vs on PB13, the PB13 could have an output advantage if the ULS's are placed separately, where they would only get a 3 db boost over a single, but if you placed them together, they get a 6 db boost, that is a pretty big increase in SPL. I think it would all depend on the placement of the subs.

 

[shadyJ]

so i've spent several hours trying to get levels and its been a total waste of time b/c i'm measuring twice and getting different results each time let alone the tones are giving me a headache and the worst of all is the realization that my room just plain sucks and it is masking the true ability of this new sub of mine...

i moved the sub i went to the back of my room where the stairs end and low and behold that is where all the bass is hiding - and it's escaping up into the ceiling above the stairs to the main level of my house rather than where i want it to go - into my face! lol

at that spot at and around the base of my stairs (which only happens to be ~4.5 feet from where i sit, the bass pressurization is most apparent...

idk what to do or if there is even anything to do

Hey razzy, sorry to hear about your bad luck. It looks like your space is pressurizing oddly, and your listening position is in a bass null. I don't remember reading if you did or not, but you have tried the subwoofer crawling method of placement, correct? If that doesn't work, and none of the available locations are doing the trick for you, the sub just doesn't have enough air displacement to pressurize your space for your listening position. You either need a bigger sub or more subs. Like I said before, I would lean toward more subs, because I think that is more likely to even out the bass sound throughout the room, whereas a bigger sub my just make things louder in the same places but still not be enough to completely pressurize your room therefore still leaving a bass null.