Epik Legend vs. HSU VTF-3 MK3 vs. SVS PB12-NSD

[Sheep]

well unfortunately the auction ended with the sub selling for $585 shipping included....so i guess i'm going with the other older vtf3.3 for 475 shipped

happy new year everyone!

Get the PB-12NSD/2! It's twice the subwoofer.

SheepStar

 

[razzy]

made a purchase!

just got a 2010 model HSU VTF3-MK3

super excited to get it up and going!

anyone know the best way to create a room diagram/digital floor plan for advice on placement?

 

[Adam]

Awesome - congrats!!!

Were you able to stay in your budget?

 

[razzy]

lol

ehhh sort of lol

I got the sub for $575 shipped...a bit more than I wanted to spend but I think I'm going to be a very happy camper with that beast from what I've gathered about it!

thanks for all your input

 

[FirstReflection]

Nice! Congrats!

Yeah, you should be pretty darn happy with the VTF-3 MK3, methinks. That's a "real" sub there and no mistaking! Good extension, great output, tight transient response and just nice, clean, "tell it like it is" bass.

Enjoy!

As for recommendations on placement, I don't have a good suggestion on software for a room mock-up (I'd be interested in that too, so hopefully someone else will chime in!), but it's often just a complete guess if we're just looking at a floor plan. Easiest thing is to just "crawl for bass". Push your seat out of the way, plop your new sub where you'd normally sit. Put on some continuous bass - I just use the THX bass sweep in the THX Optimizer menu of any THX Certified DVD or Blu-ray. Then "duck walk" at seated height around all the places where you might want to place your sub. You can get a very rough idea just with your ears - you'll certainly hear it if a certain spot produces really strong cancellations or peaks at certain frequencies in the THX sweep. You can also use an SPL meter if you like, although they aren't exactly accurate in the deep bass, so it can throw you off more than it helps sometimes.

Once you find what sounds like a good spot, put your subwoofer there, put your seat back into place, sit in your "sweet spot" seat and have a listen!

If you want to get into it a bit more and get some nice graphs of what your frequency response looks like, just download REW (Room EQ Wizard) - it's free. You can plug in an SPL meter - the software has correction curves for in inaccuracies. And then you can get a nice, pretty graph to look at

Also, if you find that you get some rattles or audible vibrations in your theater, or you find that the bass is thumping away in other rooms of your house, consider decoupling your subwoofer from the floor. You can use an Auralex GRAMMA (or you might need the Great GRAMMA larger size for the VTF-3 MK3 if you want to use the "feet" on the sub). The VTF-3 MK3 is side-firing though, not down-firing, so you can use an isolation platform that's smaller than the base of the subwoofer, it's not a problem You don't have to use the GRAMMA specifically - they're about $50. But decoupling stops the physical shaking of your sub from transmitting directly into the floor. When the sub shakes, the floor shakes, which shakes the walls, which shakes the ceiling! And that makes your whole house shake along in sympathy, which is part of why bass seems to "travel" so easily throughout your entire house! So if you're having that sort of problem at all, just decouple your sub. It won't eliminate everything, bass is still travelling through the air after all! But it can make a rather amazing difference if structure-borne sound transmission is causing you to hear the "thump, thump, thump" in other rooms, or is causing rattles inside your theater

 

[timoteo]

Hey thats awesome congrats Razzy!!
Yep thats a nice sub youve got, youre bout to experience some impressive bass performance.

If your willing to mock up your room on the computer, save that energy to measure your room with REW instead. But like FR recommended, do that after the "bass crawl". You actually dont even have to move your seat. You can place the sub right on your seat. I know your new sub is probably too big to pick up & put on a couch or chair, but for those that feel they NEED to move furniture to do the crawl (therefore putting it off) just know you dont have to.

Keep us informed on your thoughts of it & any setup questions you may have. Dont forget pics!!

Welcome to the HSU Familia!!

 

[razzy]

:d

thank you all so much for sharing in my excitement and enthusiasm about my new sub! so excited it's scheduled to arrive tomorrow! I can't believe it's only taking 36 HOURS to arrive! I will be picking it up and setting it up tomorrow late morning/early afternoon...will post listening experiences/reviews/and most importantly what everyone wants....PICTURES! hahaha

it may take me some time to get everything I want to say on a post but i'll do as good of a job as i can as fast as i can!

Justin

p.s. i'll reply to both of the previous comments tomorrow i just wanted to post this quickly before going to sleep!

 

[razzy]

still waiting...


so the arrival date was WAY off...haven't gotten it yet will post when i do w/ the review and pics etc.

 

[timoteo]

Hey its illegal to post your HSU sub in your signature before you receive it!! Thats like flashing a gang sign before getting jumped in!!! Man dont you know the rules!!??...haha just messin!!

 

[razzy]

lol

Hey its illegal to post your HSU sub in your signature before you receive it!! Thats like flashing a gang sign before getting jumped in!!! Man dont you know the rules!!??...haha just messin!!

haha well i already paid for it!

 

[razzy]

It's here!

First off I want to apologize for the length of this post and thank all of you who read it and help me figure all of this out!

Also, it won't let me upload the pictures...i've already re-sized them to accommodate the max file size.

So i called in yesterday afternoon and they said it arrived a few minutes before I called! I went down to the local greyhound bus terminal to pick it up...the box was not damaged at all- the process was very simple. I'm so glad I went this route vs ups or fedex- saved myself about 75 bucks!

After getting home and unboxing it i was blown away at the sheer size and beauty of this thing! It's SO much bigger than the supercube Reference we had and the polk psw-505 and the klipsch rw-12d I had for a while. What a beast! The condition is excellent save a small surface scratch on the top corner. I snapped pictures of the process and will be posting them for you guys!

So as was suggested I placed the sub right up against the couch where i would normally sit and plugged it in. I opted for the manual setup versus YPAO b/c I could change the speakers to "small" and manually set the crossover- YPAO has them all large by default and idk how to change it to small or change the crossover (you are unable to change the crossover setting when it's set to large i believe) (if someone does please let me know as I would imagine I could attain a better sound w/ YPAO vs. my manual inputs if I could change the speakers to small and adjust the crossover)

Unfortunately my first impression was an EPIC FAIL moment...after completing the manual setup (setting crossover, angle, distance, etc.) I played some familiar music "Geneis" by Justice, "Devastator" by For Today "Slam" by Pendulum, etc. and the only way I could describe how it sounded was NOT THERE- I was totally perplexed so I turned it up a bit to around 12-1 o'clock to see if that would change it but it didn't. The driver was moving like crazy but there was minimal sound emission and there certainly wasn't the air pressurization that i'm familiar with (i honestly got more air pressurization from my mains alone running full spectrum let alone the previous 3 subs I've had before)

Now, I KNOW there's something wrong- there's NO WAY that's how this thing actually sounds. I'm not an audio idiot as far as my ears are concerned but I'm afraid my technical knowledge of setup etc. may be ruining my experience.

NOTE: I tried it in BOTH max extension mode w/ 1 port plugged AND max output with both ports open- it made absolutely no difference.

The picture shows the sub placement at the listening seat. I attempted the subwoofer crawl and really had a rough time with it b/c like I just said the sub wasn't giving much bass/nose/pressure to begin with so it was REALLY hard to tell where the "sweet spot" was- all of it sounded SOUR to me But the bass was definitely more pronounced in certain areas than in the listening seat.

I then moved the sub to the spot right of my main right speaker and the sound improved DRAMATICALLY! However, I still think this baby has got more in it but at least I am able to HEAR the bass now...idk what in the world was the deal with the placement before and how that had such an impact on EVERYTHING. I really do believe this sub has amazing potential it just seems like I have to solve a puzzle to unlock it! LOL

I really want to try two other locations (both sides of my main couch) but my cables aren't long enough :/
Is it okay to daisy chain sub cables?

So, what do you all think I should do? Keep trying new placements? Also what about the YPAO vs. manual settings?

I'm going to get back to experimenting and will check back soon for replies and hopefully some tips on how to get those pics up on here for you dudes.

THANKS!

Justin

 

[billy p]

First off I want to apologize for the length of this post and thank all of you who read it and help me figure all of this out!

Also, it won't let me upload the pictures...i've already re-sized them to accommodate the max file size.

So i called in yesterday afternoon and they said it arrived a few minutes before I called! I went down to the local greyhound bus terminal to pick it up...the box was not damaged at all- the process was very simple. I'm so glad I went this route vs ups or fedex- saved myself about 75 bucks!

After getting home and unboxing it i was blown away at the sheer size and beauty of this thing! It's SO much bigger than the supercube Reference we had and the polk psw-505 and the klipsch rw-12d I had for a while. What a beast! The condition is excellent save a small surface scratch on the top corner. I snapped pictures of the process and will be posting them for you guys!

So as was suggested I placed the sub right up against the couch where i would normally sit and plugged it in. I opted for the manual setup versus YPAO b/c I could change the speakers to "small" and manually set the crossover- YPAO has them all large by default and idk how to change it to small or change the crossover (you are unable to change the crossover setting when it's set to large i believe) (if someone does please let me know as I would imagine I could attain a better sound w/ YPAO vs. my manual inputs if I could change the speakers to small and adjust the crossover)

Unfortunately my first impression was an EPIC FAIL moment...after completing the manual setup (setting crossover, angle, distance, etc.) I played some familiar music "Geneis" by Justice, "Devastator" by For Today "Slam" by Pendulum, etc. and the only way I could describe how it sounded was NOT THERE- I was totally perplexed so I turned it up a bit to around 12-1 o'clock to see if that would change it but it didn't. The driver was moving like crazy but there was minimal sound emission and there certainly wasn't the air pressurization that i'm familiar with (i honestly got more air pressurization from my mains alone running full spectrum let alone the previous 3 subs I've had before)

Now, I KNOW there's something wrong- there's NO WAY that's how this thing actually sounds. I'm not an audio idiot as far as my ears are concerned but I'm afraid my technical knowledge of setup etc. may be ruining my experience.

NOTE: I tried it in BOTH max extension mode w/ 1 port plugged AND max output with both ports open- it made absolutely no difference.

The picture shows the sub placement at the listening seat. I attempted the subwoofer crawl and really had a rough time with it b/c like I just said the sub wasn't giving much bass/nose/pressure to begin with so it was REALLY hard to tell where the "sweet spot" was- all of it sounded SOUR to me But the bass was definitely more pronounced in certain areas than in the listening seat.

I then moved the sub to the spot right of my main right speaker and the sound improved DRAMATICALLY! However, I still think this baby has got more in it but at least I am able to HEAR the bass now...idk what in the world was the deal with the placement before and how that had such an impact on EVERYTHING. I really do believe this sub has amazing potential it just seems like I have to solve a puzzle to unlock it! LOL

I really want to try two other locations (both sides of my main couch) but my cables aren't long enough :/
Is it okay to daisy chain sub cables?

So, what do you all think I should do? Keep trying new placements? Also what about the YPAO vs. manual settings?

I'm going to get back to experimenting and will check back soon for replies and hopefully some tips on how to get those pics up on here for you dudes.

THANKS!

Justin

I would only used the YPAO for EQing & time domain setting(ie: distance & delays) but manually set up my xover and set speakers to small. As for extending your cables go to youir local a/v store and just by a rca coupler to link your cables together.

 

[razzy]

I would only used the YPAO for EQing & time domain setting(ie: distance & delays) but manually set up my xover and set speakers to small. As for extending your cables go to youir local a/v store and just by a rca coupler to link your cables together.

yes i think i'm going to try that b/c as i'm demoing right now the bass seems like it is delayed behind the rest of the frequencies in the song...that would probably be because my settings are off right?

how do i set the crossover frequency and set speakers to "small" while still using YPAO for everything else? I have the rx-a3000

 

[billy p]

yes i think i'm going to try that b/c as i'm demoing right now the bass seems like it is delayed behind the rest of the frequencies in the song...that would probably be because my settings are off right?

how do i set the crossover frequency and set speakers to "small" while still using YPAO for everything else? I have the rx-a3000

With my yammy I set up those values manually and when I simply bypass those setting when I re-run YPAO and only check the things I want measured or corrected. I'm not familar with the newer advantage series but they should be fairly similar to set up....

 

[razzy]

Pics

okay so here's some pics that will hopefully help

 

[razzy]

more pics!

Okay so hopefully this will further the effort...I cleaned my room up a bit and took some pictures of where the sub COULD go as well as some wide angel shots to show the overall layout of my HT...

Where the sub is currently in the picture is the SECOND place I've tried to place it and is where it currently is. I moved it there after its initial placement near my listening position.

I will try the corner between my two couches next and see if there's an improvement- hopefully it will be as noticeable as the 2nd position over the 1st but we'll see.

 

[timoteo]

With the RXA3000 all you do is run YPAO then go into the settings after & change them from large to small with a crossover of 80hz (to start with) you can have a crossover with the speakers to large because nothing is getting crossed over instead the whole signal is going to speakers. If you have them large & turn on double bass the. You may be able to adjust the crossover. In that case the speakers would still get their whole signal range & everything below the crossover # will ALSO go to the sub. So the <say80hz is going to both sub & speakers. Dont do this because bass will get muddy. You have a VERY capable sub. Once its dialed in correctly it will sound its best with speakers at small & a crossover somewhere between 60-100hz depending on taste.

Is that sub brand new or used? If new then it needs to break-in. If used then you need to place it right & get it set up properly! The location it is in the room will make ALL THE DIFFERENCE. If its placed wrong, then the frequencies will cancel themselves out & the bass will be abscent at your seat.

Try each possible sub location. Run YPAO at each spot & give a listen for a while at each spot. I know it can take time doing this but the effort is so worth it. Sometimes the bass crawl doesnt reveal the best spot as well as you might hope. Dont fret though, we'll get you to a point where youll understand this subs potential!!

 

[timoteo]

BTw your place is coming together very nice!!! A bit of fine tuning & your going to have yourself a very good home theater.

I see that you have your livingroom set up so your viewing across the short span. Have you ever thought of putting your TV on the wall so your looking down the long way? Its always recommended to have your sight going the long way. In this case you could have your couch kind of dividing the space so when you setting down, the staircase is to your right. Then your sub could be in the front corner. Just an idea!!

Have your sub with the ports facing the rear wall & the driver facing into the room. If you want more slam for movies run the sub in MaxOutput mode. This will also give you more headroom & more dBs above 25h where it counts the most.

Your RXA3000 is a great receiver with tons of EQ features. Once you find the best location for the sub, get an SPL meter & use the HSU test tone CD. Tracks 9-21 are 16-250hz warble tones. With meter setup ear level at your main seat, play each tone & write down the readout. (to compensate for the meter being off at lower freq: add 12dB to 16hz, 7dB to 20hz, 4dB to 25hz & 2dB to 31.5hz for actual dBs) then use the different adjustments on the back of sub to your advantage. On top of that use the Parametric EQ in the receiver to bring down your peaks. Try to get as flat as possible to start with the.

In the RXA3000 after you run YPAO go to the Parametric EQ section. YPAO defaults to the Flat setting. Copy Flat to Manual & the. Go to Manual. You will have the exact YPAO settings there so you have a good start & then tweak from there. I have the RXA2000, i leave the speakers pretty much where their EQ is at. I do bring the higher frequencies down a bit because it can make my speakers a little bright. I do however reset the Subs EQ before i measure with the CD/SPL Meter. Then i adjust the EQ on the sub to like i said bring certain frequency peaks down.

DONT EVER BOOST YOUR VALLEYS ONLY ATTENUATE YOUR PEAKS THEN TURN UP THE OVERALL VOLUME OF THE SUB IF NEEDED!!

PM me if you have any questions on the RXA3000 itself im very familiar with all the settings it has or honestly just call me if you like. Sometimes its quicker to walk you through something over the phone. 562-587-0469 TIM

 

[razzy]

BTw your place is coming together very nice!!! A bit of fine tuning & your going to have yourself a very good home theater.

I see that you have your livingroom set up so your viewing across the short span. Have you ever thought of putting your TV on the wall so your looking down the long way? Its always recommended to have your sight going the long way. In this case you could have your couch kind of dividing the space so when you setting down, the staircase is to your right. Then your sub could be in the front corner. Just an idea!!

Have your sub with the ports facing the rear wall & the driver facing into the room. If you want more slam for movies run the sub in MaxOutput mode. This will also give you more headroom & more dBs above 25h where it counts the most.

Your RXA3000 is a great receiver with tons of EQ features. Once you find the best location for the sub, get an SPL meter & use the HSU test tone CD. Tracks 9-21 are 16-250hz warble tones. With meter setup ear level at your main seat, play each tone & write down the readout. (to compensate for the meter being off at lower freq: add 12dB to 16hz, 7dB to 20hz, 4dB to 25hz & 2dB to 31.5hz for actual dBs) then use the different adjustments on the back of sub to your advantage. On top of that use the Parametric EQ in the receiver to bring down your peaks. Try to get as flat as possible to start with the.

In the RXA3000 after you run YPAO go to the Parametric EQ section. YPAO defaults to the Flat setting. Copy Flat to Manual & the. Go to Manual. You will have the exact YPAO settings there so you have a good start & then tweak from there. I have the RXA2000, i leave the speakers pretty much where their EQ is at. I do bring the higher frequencies down a bit because it can make my speakers a little bright. I do however reset the Subs EQ before i measure with the CD/SPL Meter. Then i adjust the EQ on the sub to like i said bring certain frequency peaks down.

DONT EVER BOOST YOUR VALLEYS ONLY ATTENUATE YOUR PEAKS THEN TURN UP THE OVERALL VOLUME OF THE SUB IF NEEDED!!

PM me if you have any questions on the RXA3000 itself im very familiar with all the settings it has or honestly just call me if you like. Sometimes its quicker to walk you through something over the phone. 562-587-0469 TIM

With the RXA3000 all you do is run YPAO then go into the settings after & change them from large to small with a crossover of 80hz (to start with) you can have a crossover with the speakers to large because nothing is getting crossed over instead the whole signal is going to speakers. If you have them large & turn on double bass the. You may be able to adjust the crossover. In that case the speakers would still get their whole signal range & everything below the crossover # will ALSO go to the sub. So the <say80hz is going to both sub & speakers. Dont do this because bass will get muddy. You have a VERY capable sub. Once its dialed in correctly it will sound its best with speakers at small & a crossover somewhere between 60-100hz depending on taste.

Is that sub brand new or used? If new then it needs to break-in. If used then you need to place it right & get it set up properly! The location it is in the room will make ALL THE DIFFERENCE. If its placed wrong, then the frequencies will cancel themselves out & the bass will be abscent at your seat.

Try each possible sub location. Run YPAO at each spot & give a listen for a while at each spot. I know it can take time doing this but the effort is so worth it. Sometimes the bass crawl doesnt reveal the best spot as well as you might hope. Dont fret though, we'll get you to a point where youll understand this subs potential!!

tim- thanks so much! i'll save your # and contact you if i run into some problems

yes, you're the 2nd person that has suggested that. i suppose the only reason i can't do that is b/c i don't have this room as a dedicated HT room- it's also my personal room lol i would definitely consider switching it up to achieve improved acoustics but there isn't enough room width wise to fit both couches and if i put them at a 90 degree angle similar to how they are now but in the short span- that setup in the long span would kill the necks of those sitting on the couch against the wall (stairs to the left) so basically i would only be able to fit one couch for optimal/comfortable sitting room. if i set it up for the staircase on my right when seated then i would have to mount the tv back on a stand b/c of the window lol so i think it has to stay how it is...when i move out and get my own place one day i'll try to set up something crazy but for now i think this has to do

right now the sub is in the corner b/t the two couches as you can see here

this is the 3rd placement i've tried so far and has been THE BEST by far. i've heard the corner of the room near the listening seat is usually the best. i think what you said about "canceling frequencies" was definitely happening when i placed the sub in front of my main LP- the driver was moving but it didn't sound like it! lol

i bought this sub used and it didn't come with a test tone cd...should i call HSU and get one?

when i run YPAO should i run it w/ max output or max extension?
after i ran it the 3rd time for this current 3rd location i saved the results and then went into manual setup and changed the speakers to small and set the x-over to 80hz for all speakers and then just backed out of the menu.

even though the sub is sounding really good i still am bothered by the ability to localize it....most bass in my music/movies i've demo'd so far is high enough in the freq. range where it is directionally trackable. i get a good slam from where it is but on my left there's a significant/noticeable void...i guess this is why people always say to get two if you can? lol

 

[razzy]

so i watched lord of the rings return of the king extended on blu ray last night- it was GREAT but i have some things that are still yet to be desired..not sure if they can be satisfied by tweaking or if adding a second sub or turbo will be the only way to alleviate it...you tell me.

throughout the movie the bass was powerful- no doubt. but there was quite a bit of rumbling going on...not sure if that's just how the soundtrack is or if its my sub not cutting it in certain places- i don't have anything to compare to as I've never watched this on blu ray w/ a sub before. but there was also amazingly clear/crisp THUDS and SLAMS etc. throughout so its not like it was all rumble rumble

my second thing is thislike i previously mentioned: the bass was very localizable- i knew exactly where the sub was (not just b/c i put it there ) but b/c i could HEAR it there...and this kind of bothered me as i would MUCH prefer an experience where I am SURROUNDED by the LFE- my left was lacking the experience my right was attaining.

this comes to the turbo issue and/or a second sub...i've heard SO many differing reports on whether or not the turbo is worth it..some say its AMAZING and some say its not worth it! but i've almost unanimously heard that a second sub is ALWAYS a game changer..thoughts?

i'm honestly already pondering a second vtf3-3 but i might be crazy...no i definitely am! haha i'm not ready to make a 2nd purchase in the near future but i'm definitely on the look out for a deal

the "best" bass experience arguably can be had for under 5k whereas the best stereo speaker experience is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars...this is why going for the best in bass is not out of this world insane...it is actually attainable

i've had $40k+ Legacy Whispers and krell amps around for a while (thanks to my audiophile freak dad...haha i'm right there with him like father like son lol) and yes they are INCREDIBLE but the price is SO insane...the increase in experience is an arguable upgrade as to whether the 39,500 price increase is sonically worth it for that much-versus my pair of polk monitor 70's i just got shipped for $300 (all 5 speakers for $484) are just GREAT for the price. so all this to say that my "get the best" mentality paired with the attainability of the most bangin bass experience is creepin on me! LOL

thoughts/comments?

Justin