HT Newbie - Advice for Sub please

[FirstReflection]

Are you using "spike" feet on the bottom of the Monitor 11's? If so, those spikes are likely piercing right through the carpet (as they are meant to) and thus, coupling your speakers to the floor. Decoupling would help in that case. I always recommend to decouple ALL speakers - not just the subwoofer. I'll use Auralex SubDudes/GRAMMAs for tower speakers and MoPads or IsoNodes for bookshelf speakers. IsoNodes work really well for wall-mounted speakers too, to decouple them from the wall.

If what the other person is hearing in another room is "thump, thump, thump", but they can't hear the higher notes so much, that usually indicates that decoupling is your best bet. The reason we can easily hear the bass thumping, even when the higher frequencies are blocked, is because bass easily activates and travels via structure-borne sound transmission. In other words, the physical structure of your house is shaking along with the bass. It's the same principle that lets you hear a train coming from miles away if you put your ear on the track. You don't hear the sound of the train travelling through the air when you're far away. But the vibrations travel easily through the rails. So same thing with deep bass. It physically vibrates your house and thus, you can easily hear it in any room that is connected! If you reduce the physical vibrations with decoupling, you help to reduce the transmission of sound via your house's structure

Bass does travel well through the air though. The movement of the air can also be enough to shake the walls on its own. And from there, it's structure-borne once again. Especially at the natural resonant frequencies of the materials that make up your house - the wood or metal studs, the drywall, the cement, etc.

So, decoupling is your first and easiest thing to try in order to reduce the thumping heard in another room. If that's not enough, then you're in a bit of a tricky and potentially costly situation. Two things stop the transmission of sound - mass and decoupling. The old method of soundproofing a room was simply to keep adding mass. People would pour thick concrete walls, add heavy vinyl and additional drywall to the walls. And about the only decoupling going on was when people built a double stud wall to create an air gap.

These days, technology allows us to decouple walls much better and using much less space. QuietRock and QuietWood is a product that sandwiches a visco-elastic layer or polymer between two or more sheets of gypsum, plywood and/or metal. The outer layer of gypsum (QuietRock) or plywood (QuietWood) will vibrate and shake just like regular drywall or plywood. But then the vibrations hit the polymer layer. That layer acts as a very effective dampener that transforms the kinetic energy of the vibrations into soundless heat! The great thing about QuietRock/Wood is that you can hang it just like regular drywall. You don't have to use a special "resiliant channel" to create an air gap between the drywall and the studs. All of the soundproofing is built right into the sheets of QuietRock/Wood and you can simply hang it and install it like regular drywall or plywood. The only difference is that if you ever want to pull something out of the wall (like a nail used to hang a picture), you should actually punch that nail into the QuietRock and then put drywall compound and paint over it. You don't want to pull anything out of QuietRock because that will create a hole! If you just punch the nail in so that it is flat, the polymer inside the QuietRock will seal around the nail and prevent any hole from forming.

QuietRock/Wood is expensive though - about ten times the price of normal drywall or more (depending on the thickness of the QuietRock that you use - the thicker versions being more effective at stopping sound transmission, but also being more expensive, of course). The thing is, if you want to soundproof your room without losing much in the way of square or cubic footage, you can simply install QuietRock/Wood right over the existing drywall walls, ceiling or the subfloor. It's the easiest and most effective soundproofing upgrade.

But if the cost is too high, you can make your own pseudo-QuietRock. Serious Materials - the company that makes and sells QuietRock - also sells QuietGlue. And there is a product called GreenGlue that is very similar. What you do is apply QuietGlue to the back of a second layer of drywall and you make your own "sandwich" using the drywall that is already up and this second layer of QuietGlue-coated drywall. This is the least expensive way to soundproof a room if you are doing the labor yourself. Spread the QuietGlue on the new, second layer of drywall. Throw it up over the existing walls, ceiling and subfloor. Screw it, seal all the seams with acoustic caulk, tape, mud, primer and paint and you're done!

The thing is, super deep bass is really hard to stop. QuietRock is about as effective as any product at stopping bass, but it's only really effective down to 50Hz or so using the thickest QuietRock panels available. The Glue products are effective only down to about 125Hz or so.

The key with any soundproofing is to seal the room tight so there are no holes or gaps for air to escape the room. You do that by using acoustic caulk/sealant at all the edges and seams and around fixtures and wall panels. You want to create a "room within a room" as much as you can. If you can float the floor, build new walls on that floated floor and suspend the ceiling, then great! But that typically eats up way too much cubic footage to be practical in an existing home. Instead, QuietRock/Wood puts that layer of polymer in between the interior surface and the structure, giving you a pseudo-room-within-a-room. Or you can put that polymer layer in there yourself with QuietGlue and a second layer of drywall and plywood.

That's about as good as soundproofing in an existing house is going to get. For sure though, simply start by decoupling your speakers and subwoofers with Auralex SubDudes or GRAMMAs or MoPads, or IsoNodes. That is BY FAR the easiest and least expensive way to reduce room-to-room transmission of sound. And it's often very effective!

Hope that helps! What a Christmas present that PC13-Ultra is going to be!

Oh, and some folks might not have seen this yet...

enjoy your dubstep Christmas lights!

 

[Djeayzonne]

First,

Thanks again for a great post. I thought the point of the spikes was in fact to decouple the speakers from the floor. Maybe I need to let the spikes a little longer to raise the speaker a bit more?

If the subsides are the way to go then will do that for sure for now.

 

[FirstReflection]

No, spikes do the exact opposite and couple the speaker to the floor. It's just physics. The downward force is just the mass of the speaker, so that doesn't change. With spikes, all of that downward force is now being applied to just four very tiny surface areas! So the force at each point is much higher than if the force is spread across the full surface area of the bottom of the speaker. Imagine supporting your full body weight on just four fingers! That's what spikes are doing

 

[Djeayzonne]

Quick update - too early for a proper review by far.

Just came yesterday afternoon. It was much bigger but not as heavy as I thought it would be. My wife is just a tad taller than this subwoofer!!!

I am having trouble figuring out how to get my new Onkyo 809 to play surround sound in movies properly, so we watched Lion King blu ray last night and there was no bass at all from the music and most of the movie except for a couple of LFE sound effects like the elephant's footsteps and some other. These few sound effects were just awesome. There was one scene where baby Simba went to the elephant graveyard I think, and there was a super low LFE sound effect from a steam hole exploding up into the air. This was the by far the best bass effect I have heard and felt in my life so far. So far, not nearly as much of a coupling problem as with the spiked monitor 11s, and I don't have the subdudes yet.

I haven't even started to listen to music or anything yet. I am desperate to get this receive set up properly.

 

[Adam]

I just noticed that you got the PC13-Ultra. Congrats! I've had mine since mid-2007. I had the same experience as you - the first movie that I remember watching was Mr. and Mrs. Smith, and it was almost a religious experience. There's a scene where a dune buggy flies over a hill and lands, and I actually felt it through my whole body. I couldn't stop giggling...and rewinding.

 

[timoteo]

Oohhh boy!!! The PB-13 Ultra....man you will never forget these first moments of true bass for the rest of your life. Seriously, unless you go on the build a Quad 18" Infinite Baffle Manifold, your not gonna get a whole lot better than what youve got! Thats a great sub. Let her break-in because she's only gonna get better for the next month or so. You like her now? Haha just wait...

Congrats on the new sub!!

I dont even own an SVS but your now officially a member of the SVS Familia.

(you should have got a HSU...just playin wit ya!!)

 

[FirstReflection]

You'll certainly want to make sure that you have your bass management all working correctly before you evaluate the sub

I've had a lot of issues with getting bass management to work the way it's supposed to with several receivers in the past. You are SUPPOSED to be able to set all of your speakers to "small" and select your cross-over frequency (typically 80Hz). What is SUPPOSED to happen is that all of the bass from all of the speakers PLUS the dedicated LFE channel get sent to the subwoofer output.

However, I've found that this is not always the case. What I've found often happens is that a great deal of the bass is mixed into the Front L/R channels. And with the Front L/R channels set to "small" and the subwoofer set to "on", the bass from the Front L/R channels does NOT get sent to the subwoofer output the way it is supposed to for some reason!

I've never been able to figure out why this happens with some receivers. And it isn't all receivers or even all receivers from a certain brand. It just seems to be a weird hit-or-miss problem and I've no idea why.

The disc and scene I always use to test things is the original DVD release of The Matrix (the one that came in the cardboard case rather than a standard plastic one. On that release, if you play the "lobby shootout" scene, that really memorable bass line in the music is mixed into the Front L/R speaker channels and NOT into the LFE. Only the impacts of the gunfire are mixed into the dedicated LFE channel. So it's really easy to tell if the bass management is working the way it's supposed to! If all is well, you hear that bass line in the music plus get all the chest-hitting impacts of the gunfire. If it is NOT working properly, you get the gunfire, but the bass line in the music is WAY too quiet.

There are a couple of ways to fix this. But with large, bass capable front speaker like the Monitor 11, it isn't quite as easy sometimes. The easy solution is to set your subwooofer's output on the receiver to "double bass". With that setting, the subwoofer gets sent the LFE channel and it also gets sent the bass information from the Front L/R channels. Some receivers allow you to set the subwoofer to "double bass" even with the Front L/R channels set to "small". If you are able to do that on your Onkyo 809, DO SO! That will allow you to still filter out the bass from your Monitor 11 Front L/R speakers, but it will send ALL of the bass to your subwoofer - as it should!

Most of the time though, "double bass" for the subwoofer requires you to set your Front L/R speakers to "large". And this can be a problem because now your Front L/R speakers are being sent a full range signal. The subwoofer is getting the LFE channel. The subwoofer is also getting the bass from the Front L/R speakers - all of which is good. But the Front L/R speakers are ALSO getting the bass - hence the "double bass" name. This can sometimes be problematic because you'll now get cancellations between the bass coming from the speakers and the bass coming from the subwoofer. With some careful placement and tuning of the EQ, you can sometimes work it out. But it's less than ideal. Especially if the bass capabilities of your speakers and sub are not a particularly similar match.

Another problem that often crops up is when you are switching between digital surround sound for movies and stereo playback for music. For what ever reason, many receivers screw up the bass management. You'll get everything working nicely for surround sound, but then you'll switch over to stereo for music and suddenly your subwoofer is WAY too loud. Again, I don't know WHY this happens, I just know that it often does

So I've been using a solution that always words, but it requires the use of an external amp for your Front L/R speakers!

What I do is set the subwoofer to "off" in the receiver. And I set the Front L/R speakers to "large". With the subwoofer set to "off", ALL of the bass - from all of the speakers that are set to "small" as well as the LFE - gets routed to the Front L/R channels. I have never come across a receiver that fails to route the LFE to the Front L/R channels when the subwoofer is set to "off", so - fingers crossed - that doesn't seem to ever be an issue.

With the PC13-Ultra and its particular 1000 Watt Sledge amp, you actually get a PERFECT solution if you do things this way. The 1000 Watt Sledge amp has the ideal settings available. Here's what you do:

You use your Front L/R pre-outs from your 809 and connect those to the red/white IN connections on your PC13-Ultra. In the 809 receiver, you set the subwoofer to "off" and the Front L/R speakers to "large".

Now, in the PC13-Ultra menu, you're going to use the built-in low pass filter and high pass filter - you can read the full instructions in the PC13-Ultra's user manual which is available at SVSound.com in the "Document Library" section.

You will want to set the high pass filter and low pass filter to the same frequency - typically 80Hz, although with bass capable speakers like the Monitor 11, you could use the 63Hz setting if you like. The important part is to set the slope for BOTH filters to 24dB/octave.

Now what you do is connect the outputs on the PC13-Ultra to an external amp that will power the Front L/R speakers. Personally, I like to use external amps for the front three speakers (left/center/right) anyway If you hurry, Emotiva still has their sale going. You can pick up the excellent UPA-1 monoblock amps for $299 a piece right now

With the subwoofer connected this way, you get the PERFECT bass setup IMO. One of the problems with most setups is the way that the cross-over in receivers work, even if they're doing everything correctly, which they don't always do! With almost all receivers these days, they use a 24dB/octave low pass filter slope on the subwoofer - which is fine, but they use a 12dB/octave high pass filter on the speakers. The way it is SUPPOSED to work is that your speakers are supposedly going to have a 12dB/octave roll-off of their own. Such would be the case with sealed front speakers that don't have any additional filtering on the low end. It's also the case with THX certified speakers - which is where this particular combination of slopes comes from!

So the idea is that the 12dB/octave slope applied by the receiver combines with the natural 12dB/octave slope of your speakers to give you the desired 24dB/octave slope. But in the real world, very few speakers are actually designed this way!

So instead, you wind up with one of two scenarios: either you set the receiver's cross-over point to the point where your speakers naturally start to roll-off - in which case, you usually get too steep of a slope because most speakers are either ported (in which case they already have a 24dB/octave slope or steeper), or they are sealed, but have an additional filter already applied in order to protect the driver from trying to produce too much bass. Or the second setup happens where you cross-over the speaker above where the speaker naturally starts to roll off, in which case, you get too shallow of a slope because the only slope is coming from the 12dB/octave filter being applied by the receiver.

Either way, you're not getting the intended Linkwitz-Riley cross-over in which the subwoofer is sloping off at 24dB/octave on its high end and the speakers are sloping off at 24dB/octave on their low end, with both the subwoofer and speakers being -3dB at the selected cross-over frequency so that when they sum together, you get a perfectly flat frequency response all the way through!

So basically, if you simply send the FULL audio signal to the PC13-Ultra, it has all the filters necessary to implement a PERFECT cross-over. Personally, I use 80Hz regardless. I know there are many people who say they prefer to use a lower cross-over frequency if they can. In my experience, I think the reason they prefer that is because they've only ever heard cross-overs where the slopes are not what they are meant to be - due to all the reasons that I've detailed above. When you have the correct slopes on both the subwoofer and speakers, the 80Hz cross-over point works. The other reason is because many speakers can play flat to below 80Hz, but most start to roll off somewhere below 80Hz. Your Monitor 11 speakers claim a -2dB point at 42Hz, which is unusually low. If that's correct, it means the speakers only start to roll-off at about 50-55Hz, so with speakers like that, you really could use a lower cross-over frequency if you want to. But, on the other hand, with those speakers, there's virtually no doubt that they can play flat to below 80Hz. So if you set the cross-over to 80Hz and use the perfect 24dB/octave slopes of your PC13-Ultra, you can really get the ideal slopes coming from both your subwoofer and speakers, and you can enjoy the blend between subwoofer and speakers EXACTLY the way it was intended to be heard!

Now, with all of that said, doing things that way DOES require more money in the for of external amps for at least your Front L/R speakers. So perhaps just think of it as a potential future upgrade if you don't have the funds right now Amps are basically never a bad purchase

Check to see if your 809 will allow you to set your Front L/R speakers to "small" while setting your subwoofer to "double bass". If you can, that's the next best setting. If it forces you to set your speakers to "large" in order to select "double bass" for your subwoofer, then it's going to be trickier. Right now, it sounds as though you probably just went with the default settings, which are Front L/R speakers as "small" and subwoofer as "on". And it sounds as though you're getting the problem that I've run across where the bass from the Front L/R channels is NOT getting routed to the subwoofer the way it is supposed to. Hopefully, one of the methods that I've written here will work for you!

 

[Ted White]

Just a quick comment on the pre-damped drywall described earlier. Please keep in mind that you can assemble a much heavier and much much less expensive system in the field using standard drywall, plywood, OSB, cement board.

The pre-damped boards are not only very expensive they are also lower mass than what you can assemble yourself. Field assembled are higher performance and lower cost.

 

[FirstReflection]

Just a quick comment on the pre-damped drywall described earlier. Please keep in mind that you can assemble a much heavier and much much less expensive system in the field using standard drywall, plywood, OSB, cement board.

The pre-damped boards are not only very expensive they are also lower mass than what you can assemble yourself. Field assembled are higher performance and lower cost.

This is true - although I would add a constrained layer of visco-elastic glue (QuietGlue or GreenGlue) to any multi-layer wall construction for better performance than mass alone can offer. The only issue with the sort of multi-layer wall that you're describing is that it is thicker, which robs you of floor space, it is much heavier, so you must be absolutely sure that your structure is up to the task of supporting it, and it is more labor intensive. Where a product like QuietRock partially makes up for its high per sheet cost is in the labor. Being able to score & snap, hang, mud and paint just like regular drywall makes the installation of QuietRock much quicker and easier than a multi-layer wall. And for a single sheet, it is far more effective at stopping sound transmission than any other single layer of wall board. No question, if you have the physical space and you're doing the labor yourself, you can build a more effective soundproof wall than QuietRock for a lower cost. I simply recommend QuietRock because, so far as just adding a single layer of board, no other single layer product is more effective or easy to install

 

[Ted White]

I was referring to a field-assembled system with double 5/8" and a damping compound.

At the end of the day, the "floorspace is a premium" argument is really a moot point to the end user. Personally I feel that it is strictly a marketing sound bite. Anyone would gladly give up an extra 5/8" of wall thickness if the sound isolation was much better assured.

There's simply no getting around the fact that hanging standard 5/8" drywall ($7 a sheet) is fast and labor is cheap. $0.20 a square foot to hang rock is often on the high side unless extensive scaffolding is required.

Unless a structure is ready to be condemned, the addition of a layer of drywall isn't going to exceed load capacity and exceed L/240 or L/360 deflection limits. We need to keep in mind that despite marketing positions, mass is still the fundamental driver in sound isolation. We want to decouple the mass and we want to damp the mass but we want as much cheap mass as practical. Lightweight soundproofing is an oxymoron.

 

[Djeayzonne]

Ted,

Could you go into more detail about how to make and install what you are talking about?

 

[FirstReflection]

OK, if you're just talking about double 5/8" drywall with damping in between, that's exactly what I mentioned before with simply hanging a second layer of drywall over the existing drywall with QuietGlue or GreenGlue in between. Exact same idea, inexpensive, as easy on labor as is possible and quite effective! So we're in total agreement there

From the wording in your previous post, I was thinking you meant a multi-layer wall system such as cement board, vinyl, soundboard, drywall - which is a four layer system that I've seen used in the past. It's effective not only because of the extensive increase in mass, but also because each layer is fairly dissimilar, which creates more opportunity for the sound waves to reflect rather than transmit as they hit the boundary between each layer. Adding a visco-elastic glue in between at least two of those layers dampens the sound even further! If you use a four or five layer system like that though, then the wall truly does start to become very thick and heavy! Enough so that you really are starting to move the walls in by over 2" all around, which does start to encroach on the expected floor space and dimensions of the room.

But a simple double 5/8" drywall plus glue wall is much more reasonable and essentially what most of the QuietRock products are - they're just pre-made is all The thickest QuietRock though is a little different and - at least according to the measurements - is more effective at lower frequencies than the double 5/8" drywall + glue system or the other, thinner QuietRock products. For theaters, getting performance at as low a frequency threshold as possible is desireable.

Anywho, we're in agreement! The double drywall + glue system is still a little more labor intensive and thicker than hanging just a single layer of QuietRock, but certainly well worth the offset in materials' cost - especially if you're doing the labor yourself! Hence why GreenGlue and QuietGlue are so popular among the forum peeps, methinks

If you're not concerned with cost though, QuietRock is effective - just expensive is all. I'd be very interested to know exactly what sort of self-made layer system would be necessary to equal the thickest 545 QuietRock's performance in deadening deep bass. The testing that QuietRock quotes has the 545 version showing effectiveness down to 50Hz. I'm sure that using some dissimilar wall materials with dampening glue in between each layer could equal that performance at some point. It'd be cool to know just how many layers it would take and what the total cost and thickness would wind up being!

 

[Ted White]

I appreciate the dialog and hope this doesn't appear arguementative.

… a multi-layer wall system such as cement board, vinyl, soundboard, drywall - which is a four layer system that I've seen used in the past. It's effective not only because of the extensive increase in mass, but also because each layer is fairly dissimilar, which creates more opportunity for the sound waves to reflect rather than transmit as they hit the boundary between each layer. Adding a visco-elastic glue in between at least two of those layers dampens the sound even further! If you use a four or five layer system like that though, then the wall truly does start to become very thick and heavy! Enough so that you really are starting to move the walls in by over 2" all around, which does start to encroach on the expected floor space and dimensions of the room.

I agree, though these days few designers would spec a room with all that in a wall. 2 sheets of cheap 5/8” drywall is all that is generally needed. Again, the loss of 5’8” of wall is meaningless to the end user. If competent damping compound is used between the layers, the individual panel resonance issues you alluded to are gone, so the goal of dissimilar thickness / density is moot. You rarely see dis-similar materials being spec’d anymore now that competent damping compounds are available. Again a key component is that this mass is both damped and decoupled.

But a simple double 5/8" drywall plus glue wall is much more reasonable and essentially what most of the QuietRock products are - they're just pre-made is all The thickest QuietRock though is a little different and - at least according to the measurements - is more effective at lower frequencies than the double 5/8" drywall + glue system or the other, thinner QuietRock products. For theaters, getting performance at as low a frequency threshold as possible is desireable.

Yea, and they’re $180+ a sheet… Personally, I would never spec a single layer solution, as the chance of seal failure is very high. Double panels inherently drop this risk since the seams of the first layer are completely covered with the second sheet of 5/8” drywall. Most of the factory pre-damped panels are very lightweight relative to the field installed double 5/8” drywall + the mass of the damping compound. There are now five manufacturers of these pre-damped panels. I’ve worked with three of them during their initial R&D. All have competent test reports and STC scores. My personal experience lab testing them led to the same reproducible data. The products work per the published lab data. At the end of the day the heavier wall is what we want and most of the pre-damped panels don’t approach the weight of the double 5/8” unless the cost shoots over $100 a board.

The double drywall + glue system is still a little more labor intensive and thicker than hanging just a single layer of QuietRock, but certainly well worth the offset in materials' cost - especially if you're doing the labor yourself

As I mentioned, even in a commercial environment hiring labor to hang the rock is $0.20 psf or less. That’s just plain cheap. Also, we have to keep in mind that there’s an 11% waste factor so I’d rather fill the dumpster with $7 a sheet scraps rather than $80 or $100 a sheet scraps. Additionally, while the thinner (lighter) score, bend and snap panels are easy to work with (they really are), their heavier more formidable and desirable pre-damped panels that we would want require a power saw to cut them. Preferably a circular saw so as to avoid the significant risk de-laminating the panels. Delamination = little or no damping. Imagine using a circular saw on powdered drywall in someone’s home. This is still drywall they’re cutting, so this cutting process requires either extreme dust filtration or simply cutting and trimming the pre-damped drywall outside. In either case the labor rate to install this exotic material can itself become extreme.

I'd be very interested to know exactly what sort of self-made layer system would be necessary to equal the thickest 545 QuietRock's performance in deadening deep bass.

Well the product you reference is 6.2 lbs a sqft, per the manufacturer. Compare that to three sheets of 5/8” drywall and damping compound yielding a panel likely over 7.25 pounds psf. Maybe 16% more mass in the field assembled wall. More mass means a lower fundamental LF resonance point = better bass isolation. Especially if this mass is decoupled. Remember the multi-layers remove the potential for seal failure in the main field of the wall. Therefore the much cheaper field assembled system is always the one I’d enter in the county fair.

 

[Ted White]

Ted,

Could you go into more detail about how to make and install what you are talking about?

You mean a damped, decoupled wall? Sure. The basic 4 elements of soundproofing:

Decoupling- We want the 6 surfaces to be decoupled, unless the floor is a slab. Decoupling can be accomplished via double stud framing, single stud framing with clips & channels or via staggered stud framing. That's also the order of performance, high to low.

Absorption- Simple R13 fiberglass in the wall, R19 in the ceiling. Thicker is not really better. You can spend a LOT more on insulation with no performance improvement. All we're doing here is taming air cavity resonance.

Mass- As we've been discussing (again, thanks for the maintained civility), the more the merrier. Plywood or OSB as a first layer, then cheap drywall gives you a constant nail base everywhere when you go to hang items.

Damping- The last element. Every solid panel will have a natural resonance frequency. If you have a proper constrained layer system built (drywall / damping compound / drywall) the panel resonance is almost entirely removed from the equation.

This is all part of building the room within a room, and you can read more here if you're interested: Room Within a Room - Soundproofing Company

The 4 Elements of soundproofing are discussed in more detail here: Elements of Room Construction - Soundproofing Company

 

[Djeayzonne]

First Reflection,

First of all, thanks for all of your input helping me out.

I haven't had much time to spend with it for critical listening though, so I don't want to do a premature review.

My wife and I have been re-watching some favorite movies - not only this awesome sub, but it's also the first time we have had surround sound. For sound effects, this sub is unbelievable, though I think there is a bit of a hump between 80-100 Hz. Need to RTA and configure equalizers before doing critical listening.

Walls themselves haven't been vibrating so much, but things attached to walls have been, plus the french doors themselves are vibrating within their catches when doors are closed.

Design of the house also plays a part, but the whole system still sounds very good even when just opening the french doors and listening downstairs from any room except the master, which is a bit 'hidden'.

Definitely need to get the subdudes and work on the walls when I have the excess budget for something like that. The master bath is directly beneath the media room, and in the master with the door closed, all you hear is the serious thumping.

We just spent the whole weekend watching Lord of the Rings - extended trilogy on blu ray - it was just amazing.

Nothing to do with the sub, but I think the overall speaker calibrations are not set up right. The front stage overpowers the surround a bit, unless I lie down on the floor in the space in front of the media chairs, then the surround feels right.

Unfortunately, the Onkyo 809 receiver will not let me turn on double-bass unless the main speakers are set to full. This is the most ridiculous 'setting' I think I have every come across. Isn't the entire point of the whole *.1 setups is to have a dedicated unit for producing bass?

I did do some critical listening on just a few songs. One song I used is one I have been listening to nearly all of my life, Long Long Way to Go - Phil Collins from No Jacket Required. There is something about that first note after the intro at second 16 that just has amazing impact to me. So I kept repeating this note for around 15-20 minutes making different settings on the receiver and the sub itself. I also listened to Asonjau performed by Kodo, which is a full traditional drum performance act. Unfortunately, the current setup still doesn't do this kind of sound justice. Is there such a system in this world....?

I would like to do a more complete review after getting settings dialed in and doing critical listening with things I am very familiar with.

Any other advice or knowledge is greatly appreciated!

 

[FirstReflection]

Thanks for keeping us in the loop!

I'm really happy to see that you're willing and want to really get everything set up and dialed in properly before doing a "serious" evaluation. The PC13-Ultra is certainly worthy of taking the time and making the effort. I suspect you've got an inkling of what it can do just from hearing some of the sound effects in movies. So getting it dialed in as perfectly as possible is what's going to give you the musical performance that you're after.

It definitely sounds as though a decoupling riser will be helpful to you. It won't stop every rattle and thump, but it will reduce them to the handful of resonant frequencies of the rattling/thumping materials. Those resonant frequencies will be activated just by the bass traveling through the air, so there's nothing you can really do to eliminate them. But decoupling can make a surprising reduction at all the other frequencies, so I believe it will help you a fair bit.

I'm not sure if you've done the "crawling/duck walking for bass", but start with that. Try it both with only your subwoofer connected and also with your speakers and sub connected. That will give you a better idea of how the bass from just you sub differs from when your sub and speakers combine.

For now, I would recommend setting your front speakers to "large" and the sub to "double", which I think might be labelled "LFE + Mains". You'll get the full 20Hz - 20kHz being sent to your Front Monitor 7s. The LFE will only be sent to the sub. The bass in the Front L/R channels will be duplicated by the sub, so you're going to get a lot of interaction between the sub and your front speakers. This could be to your advantage or your disadvantage depending on placement. Paradigm does put a low frequency filter on their speakers, so there is no worry about sending the full range signal to them. You've basically got two "subwoofers" that cut off around 40Hz in your front L/R speakers and then your 20Hz sub in the PC13-Ultra. So for all those frequencies where they overlap, down to about 40Hz or so, you've basically got 3 subs with this setup. That can create harmful cancellations, or it can create helpful "smoothing" of the frequency response, depending on placement. So it's well worth some experimentation and trial & error! Crawl for bass first. Then measure with software like Room EQ Wizard to confirm and to get a nice graph of the response at your seat.

This "large" fronts and "LFE + Mains" sub menu setting is the best way to ensure that you are getting ALL of the bass in any recording being sent to your system. Like I said previously, I don't know why some receivers muck it up. I just know that they do! And I've definitely had Onkyos in the past that muck it up, so I think it's at least worth trying in your case

In the future, you can get a nice stereo amp and do the connection that I talked about previously. Front L/R set to "large", sub set to "off". Run the pre-outs for the Front L/R into the PC13-Ultra. Set both the High Pass and Low Pass filters in the PC13-Ultra to 80Hz and 24dB/octave. Then run the L/R outputs from the PC13-Ultra to the separate stereo amp and connect your front Monitor 7s to that amp. That will require you to set up your subwoofer from scratch again. A fresh "crawling for bass" and new measurements. But you'll have the ideal cross over implementation at that point. For now though, "large" front speakers and "LFE + Mains" sub

For your "crawling for bass", I recommend putting in any THX Certified DVD or Blu-ray. Go to the THX Optimizer in the disc's menu. In the Audio section, the last test is a "bass sweep". Put that chapter on repeat. You'll get a nice sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz playing over and over. It perfect for the "crawl" and also for hearing how your sub and main speakers play together.

Hope that helps to get you started! Trust me, it'll be well worth it!

 

[timoteo]

I dont agree with setting the speakers to Large. Specially when you have a PB13U. The bass in the towers will bring down the sound quality of the PBU. Things will just get bloated.

When you have your speakers set to Small, the sub gets all the bass below the crossover point AND its own .1 channel. Your not missing anything just because you cant engage "double bass". In fact your getting the best processing that way. Your avr doesnt have to waste watts on the power hungry lower frequencies to the mains. Instead, the avr can concentrate on the mids & highs giving you clearer, more dynamic sound through your speakers. Your sub has its own amp & its made to handle all the lows for its own channel PLUS handling the lows that your speakers cant play well anyways.

I say leave the speakers Small. Try different crossover points between 60-100hz. Whichever sounds best to you leave it there.

Ive never heard a system sound better with any speakers set to Large unless there was no sub hooked up.

 

[Djeayzonne]

It is possible that I don't know what I am doing with the receiver setup, but it doesn't appear that there are these large and small settings, only 'full' and a handful of crossover points. When I select any other setting besides 'full', the option to turn on the double bass becomes greyed out and unselectable. Maybe it was because we were watching Lions King (which is rather old), but I was sure the only bass the PC13 was producing was the LFE effects from the movie. I will try again with some other stuff to make sure.

I also don't know how to do the crawling test, but I guess I can find it easily on the internet.

Thanks again for everyone's info so far!!!

 

[timoteo]

Full stands for FullRange AKA Large.

When set to Full the receiver will send the full range of effects that are meant for the speakers TO THE SPEAKERS. When you choose DoubleBass, the receiver will send the speakers the full range of sound PLUS send the frequencies AT & BELOW the crossover point to the sub.

If you dont have "Full" selected then it should in effect be like selecting "Small". So if a crossover point is available youd want to try starting with 80hz. This way the receiver will send the frequencies ABOVE that 80hz to the speakers & the frequencies BELOW 80hz to the sub. Remember we are only talking about the sound that is meant for the speakers. The sub still has its own channel (LFE) that will always be sent to it as long as the sub setting in the receiver is set to ON.

The reason "double bass" isnt selectable when you dont have the speakers set to Full is because the bass for the speakers isnt going to the speakers but is going to the sub only.

The reason having the system set to Small is generally better is because those lower frequencies eat up power quicker than mids/highs do. So you relieve the receivers amps from having to power them & let the sub handle them. This gives you more power available in the receiver to consentrate on the frequencies the speakers are best at which are the mids & highs. This should give you more headroom & therefore more dynamics.

The sub is designed to not only handle the low frequencies better but also play them with more authority. With the speakers not set to Full the sub will be playing its own LFE track AND playing the low end that normally would be going to the speakers. Since frequencies below about 100hz arent localizable, you shouldnt be able to tell the sub is playing the speakers low sounds. Instead, everything should sound like its coming from the speakers but with a much fuller sound.

If you watched LionKing with the speakers set to Full & double bass WASNT selected then yes the sub WAS ONLY playing its own LFE track.

Even though this way of setting a system up is typically recommended i still think you should listen to your system in each possible configuration & decide for yourself what sounds best. Try:

1. Speakers Full-DoubleBass OFF
2. Speakers Full-DoubleBass ON-Crossover between 60-100hz
3. Speakers NOT set to Full- Crossover between 60-100hz

Use your ears to see what crossover setting sounds best to you.

My experience is that with the speakers to Full with DoubleBass, it can sound bloated & muddy. You have such an amazing sub that can play bass so well i think youll find it does even the midbass better than your speakers. I think the speakers will sound clearer when not set to Full. Your results may vary

Try experimenting & let us know your thoughts!!!

FYI: One thing to remember is that your PB-13 Ultra needs a good 30-50hrs to break-in. The bass will improve noticably. Midbass will become more pronounced & low bass will extend further. Overall the sound will fill in & become more dynamic. So give it some time before any critical listening!

 

[timoteo]

"Bass Crawl" in a nutshell:

Place your sub where you normally sit. It can be on top of seat or you can move the seat & place it on the ground where your seat is normally.

Play some bass heavy music or test tones (ie. THX Optimizer DVD)

Crawl to or duck at the locations that placing your sub permenantly is an option. At thos spots, listen to the bass & listen for powerful, detailed, clean bass. Beware of bloated, muddy, one note bass.

Then place the sub in the spot that had sounded the best.

Now recalibrate using your receivers auto calibration (ie. Auddessey, YPAO, MCACC etc) If you have an older receiver that doesnt have an auto cal then measure the speaker distances & use an SPL Meter (RadioShack) to set the speaker/sub levels.

Now have a listen & fine tune by ear.

Most important part!!.....ENJOY SYSTEM!