HT Newbie - Advice for Sub please

[Djeayzonne]

Thanks for the extra info.

Yes, I tested on some music and netflix that bass is definitely being directed to the sub with the the crossover at 80 on all speakers - fronts, center, and surrounds.

For the bass crawl test, I had the room prewired with the sub in a certain spot, which is where it is right now.

If I do this test and find a better place for it, how would I deal with the connection at that point?

I understand about crossovers and such as I installed an active system in my previous car and fiddled with crossover and e.q. settings all the time.

Is Lion King just that old of a movie where they cut out the bass from the soundtrack? Seems strange.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, for timoteo and Djeayzonne

What timoteo is saying about the way the bass gets handled in the receiver is correct IF the receiver is doing things the way it is supposed to do it.

But like I was saying earlier, some receivers do not handle the bass correctly for some reason. I don't know why, but I know that it happens. And I've had it happen on Onkyo receivers before, so I'm not totally sure what the problem is, but it is NOT sending the bass below 80Hz from the Front L/R speakers when those speakers are set to "small". Again, this isn't the way things are supposed to work. The receiver is screwing up. But I know that it happens some times, and that's why I gave the advice that I did

If you could do me a favor, Djeayzonne: do you have The Matrix on DVD? Or could you rent a copy?

Set up the receiver as follows:

- All speakers set to an 80Hz cross-over point
- Subwoofer set to "on"
- On the subwoofer itself, turn all the high-pass and low-pass filters off

Put the receiver in standard Dolby Digital listening mode when the movie is playing.

Now go to the "lobby shootout" scene. When the action starts, it will be really easy to tell if your receiver is handling the bass correctly or not.

Do you remember the music in that scene? Most people do - it was very memorable It's got that really prominent bass riff. On the DVD, that bass riff is mixed into the Front L/R channels - not into the LFE subwoofer channel.

With this setup, if that bass riff doesn't sound loud and clear and prominent - like substantially louder than everything else in the scene - then your receiver is not handling the bass correctly. Based on what you said The Lion King sounds like, I suspect this to be the case.

So, if that bass riff doesn't easily stand out, try this:

- set the Front L/R speakers to "Full"
- Set the subwoofer to "double" or "LFE + Mains" (however it is labelled)

Now try that scene again. You should easily notice immediately that the bass riff really stands out now the way it is supposed to!

If there is some way to select an 80Hz cross-over for your Front L/R speakers and still turn on "double bass" or "LFE + Mains", then that is the preferred setting. But like you said, I believe it is greyed out and you can't select it if you choose an 80Hz cross-over for the Front L/R speakers.

As I was saying before, using the "large/full" front speakers and "double bass/LFE + Mains" setting is not ideal. But in a case where the receiver is not doing the bass management properly, it is the only way to get all of the bass that is supposed to be playing!

In the future, the ideal solution will be to get an external amp for your Front L/R speakers. I've detailed the ideal connection path in that case previously, so I won't repeat it again. But yeah, as timoteo says, the "large/full" front setting with the "double bass/LFE + Mains" setting is not ideal. But it is better than having a whole bunch of bass completely missing!

With the 80Hz cross-over for the Front L/R speakers and the subwoofer simply set to "on", the receiver is supposed to send all of the bass from the Front L/R channels to the subwoofer output. timoteo's absolutely right about that. But if the receiver is screwing up - as I know that they can sometimes - then it isn't doing things as expected! So that's a bit of an annoyance, but I'm just trying to suggest the best compromise when things aren't working the way they're supposed to

 

[Djeayzonne]

I will try this and report back. I do have an old copy of the Matrix DVD.

 

[FirstReflection]

Cool

Yeah, I use that Matrix DVD to test this exact issue out all the time. It's the easiest example that I know because that bass riff in the music is so easy to pick out and almost everyone knows and remembers what it was supposed to sound like!

One other thing that you can do to get a better idea of exactly how your receiver is handling the bass:

use the same two sets of settings that I detailed above, but physically disconnect your all of your speakers and have a listen. In other words, don't have any speaker wire connected; have ONLY your subwoofer connected.

Now you'll be able to hear it with nothing but the subwoofer playing, which can be kind of fun, actually, as you get to hear your sub without any masking effects from the other speaker channels. It can also be really enlightening to realize that the sub actually outputs sound quite a bit higher in frequency than a lot of people expect. Remember, the cross-over is not a "brick wall". It's just a 24dB/octave slope, so up at 160Hz, the sub can still be quite audible being 24 dB quieter than the 80Hz stuff. And even above that, you can still hear some output from the subwoofer alone. It's kinda neat

Anywho, with your sub being the only thing making sound, it's SUPER easy to hear whether that bass riff in the lobby shootout scene is getting routed to the subwoofer or not! If you set all speakers to "small" with an 80Hz cross-over setting and the subwoofer to "on" and your receiver is NOT sending all of the bass from the Front L/R channels the way it is supposed to, then that bass riff is going to sound very, very quiet, muffled and far away when nothing but the subwoofer is playing.

If you can select an 80Hz cross-over frequency for the speakers and select "double bass/LFE + Mains" for the subwoofer, that setting should bring the bass riff full and loud into the subwoofer!

If the only way to get the "double bass/LFE + Mains" setting for the sub is with the Front L/R speakers set to "Large/Full", then that should also bring the bass riff loud and full into the subwoofer.

So that's an extremely clear way to confirm how the bass is being routed by your receiver. After you know that your sub is being sent all of the bass, you go ahead and physically connect your speakers to the receiver with speaker wire again. Now you will have to adjust positioning, EQ and relative volume levels as necessary.

Hope that helps! I certainly want to get you all set up so that you're getting ALL of the bass that you're supposed to be hearing! The PC13-Ultra is WELL worth it

 

[Djeayzonne]

This is proving to be an interesting exercise.

The receiver is managing the bass properly. But that particular bass riff you are referring to doesn't seem to really go that low as only the last 2 notes of the riff I can hear clearly on the sub, whether I had the other speakers set at 80hz or 100hz. I did turn down the LFE channel -10db and that seem to help a bit as all I could really hear were the LFE stuff until I turned it up really loud.

I am not liking this lack of cohesion. It is so obvious which notes of that riff are being played by the mains and which ones the sub kicks in to play. I had this problem in the car too, so I ended up cutting the sub off at 100 with a 12db filter to make a better transition between mid bass and sub.

Shouldn't this sub be blending better? Or is the Audyssey auto correction not doing a good job or what?

 

[FirstReflection]

uhh...something is definitely off there. With the speakers set to 80Hz or 100Hz, if the receiver is steering the bass correctly, you should DEFINITELY be hearing the bass riff coming from the subwoofer.

Could you give it a try with the speakers physically disconnected like I mentioned? I'm thinking that's the only way we're going to track this down.

Physically disconnect the speakers. Turn Audyssey off.

Try the lobby shootout with both the speakers set to 80Hz cross over and the subwoofer to just "on"

Then try it again with the speakers set to "full" and the subwoofer set to "on" and then with the subwoofer set to "double bass/LFE + Mains"

With ONLY the subwoofer playing - all other speakers physically disconnected, and Audyssey off, you should be able to track down exactly how the receiver is steering the bass to the subwoofer. The bass riff should be coming through the subwoofer for sure. Otherwise, it's the same "missing bass" that you were hearing with The Lion King.

 

[Djeayzonne]

I can hear the deepest notes of that bass riff on the sub.

It sounds no different whether i do the mains to full with double bass or change the mains to 80 or 100hz. It is the same.

 

[Djeayzonne]

The sub is definitely playing the riff, the output is low though.

All other sounds, especially the LFE is overpowering it so that all I really hear is the deepest notes of that riff.

I turned down all speakers as low as I could -12db and turned up the volume on the sub menu itself to max of 0db.

That helped a little, but i still wouldn't say the bass from the riff sounds great. It is there but weak.

 

[Djeayzonne]

I changed from windows media player to vlc player, and that completely changed it. It sounds more like what you described now.

Although it won't about the dolby signal, my receiver changed to just multichannel pcm.

Anyway, not sure why media player is messing up the sound like that, but it definitely sounds more like what you described with vlc.

 

[Djeayzonne]

Just tried with a trial version of power dvd. Also better than media player, but still won't output the dolby, just pcm.

Sorry, my two blu ray players are from Japan, so they won't play this US code DVD, that's why I am doing it from my PC.

 

[FirstReflection]

Gah - yeah, throwing possible source issues into the mix doesn't help, does it?

Yeah, this was bugging me, so I dug out my old Onkyo TX-SR705 (which I know for certain has the bass problem) and connected only a sub - no speakers connected.

With the speakers set to "80Hz cross over" and the sub to "on" I was getting extremely little of the bass riff - quiet, really muffled and just the lowest couple of notes like you said.

With things set to front speakers "full" and subwoofer to "double bass on" I got way more of the riff back. It doesn't sound like it does with the speakers connected because there are certainly higher frequencies that are part of it. It kinda sounds like a muffled version with only the sub and no speaker connected But there is definitely more of the riff coming through the subwoofer with these settings - just as I remembered. So yeah, it isn't the full, clear riff when the speakers aren't connected at all, but it's definitely more than when the speakers are set to 80Hz and the subwoofer is just set to "on". I can't select "double bass" on the 705 either if the front speakers are set to anything other than "full".

It had been a while since I've done this test, so I wanted to make sure! The bass riff does sound muffled with only the sub playing. But when the receiver is screwing up with the 80Hz setting, it's obviously different - barely any of the riff and only a couple of the lowest notes.

Sounds as though you did spot something similar, except it was from going from a straight Dolby Digital signal to a PCM multi-channel signal. That pretty much indicates that the issue is in the receiver's Dolby Digital decoder. If changing between Full with double bass and 80Hz with subwoofer on isn't producing any different results, then that's a slightly different problem than the one I've heard in the past - but it still isn't right!

If you're hearing the bass riff with the multi-channel PCM output from the other DVD player software - like I say, it's kinda muffled through just the sub, but clearly a lot more audible than when the bass management is screwing up - then that's the way it is supposed to sound! That riff should be there in the subwoofer.

This is frustrating. If the problem is in the Dolby Digital decoder of the receiver, then it's going to be a pain to get it right. If your Blu-ray and other disc players are able to handle the decoding and just output multi-channel PCM via HDMI, that might be your best solution.

Gosh, I'm sorry about this, but I promise you it's not the fault of the PC13-Ultra or your Paradigm speakers! They can play the bass if it's fed to them properly!

Honestly, is there any chance you could exchange your Onkyo 809? Cause that's the problem. Like I say, I had the issue with my 705, but I found the work around with the "double bass" setting. That doesn't seem to be working for your 809 though, so I don't know if there's another work around other than using multi-channel PCM output from your sources.

What a pain! But if you can exchange your Onkyo 809, maybe go for a Denon instead. I haven't bought a more recent Onkyo in years. I've stuck with Denon and never had these bass management issues with them. It sucks because Onkyos are priced so well and are so feature rich. But if it's screwing up the basics of bass management, that ain't worth it...at least not to me...and not when you have such an awesome sub and such capable speakers!

 

[Djeayzonne]

I don't think I can return it. Best I could do probably is sell it and just buy something else. If this is such a common issue, there is gotta be more info on it. I will do some research and if this really is a problem and not a setting issue, then I'll just have to get rid I of it.

 

[FirstReflection]

It's not something I've seen talked about a lot for some reason. I think most people just don't realize when bass is "missing" because they just plug in their subwoofer, set the cross over and never even consider that something might not be right. It's the reason I use that Matrix lobby scene because almost everybody remembers that bass riff from the theater, so they DO notice if it's quiet or missing since it was so memorable

I had the issue with an old Yamaha too, so it wasn't strictly an Onkyo problem.

There's one more possible work around that I thought of:

- set the subwoofer to "off"
- that should automatically set the Front L/R speakers to "full"
- run a pair of red & white stereo analogue cables from the Front L/R pre-out plugs to the red & white input plugs on the PC13-Ultra
- in the subwoofer's settings, set the "low pass filter" to 80Hz and 24dB/octave slope

I'm not certain if the 809 will output from the pre-outs if you still have speaker wire connections, but you can try. You can also experiment with a lower low pass filter frequency in the PC13-Ultra's settings. With these settings, the front speakers and the sub should both be getting sent the full range signal PLUS the LFE, since the subwoofer is set to "off" in the receiver. This isn't ideal, but it's worth a try to see if it gets you all the bass back while using a Dolby Digital signal.

 

[Djeayzonne]

I wonder if I should just go grab a copy of Matrix on blu ray and test that way.

I don't really have any intention of watching DVDs through my computer anyway.

 

[FirstReflection]

They remixed the audio for the HD DVD and Blu-ray releases, so that's why I still use the original DVD version

Given that all HDTV broadcasts are in Dolby Digital - and it seems as though your issue is in the Dolby decoder - it'd be much more preferable to track down the problem and see if you can find a work around for the time being.

I'm really sorry, cause I know this is a pain and I've probably made things worse by pointing out something that most people don't even seem to notice! But at the same time, I really don't want you to be disappointed with your PC13-Ultra and think that it isn't as impressive as expected or that it can't blend seemlessly with your front speakers! With the speakers and sub that you have, they should be knocking your socks off. So while it's a pain, figuring out what's going on with your receiver is really important. You paid a lot for some good speakers and a fantastic subwoofer! It makes no sense to limit their capabilities due to something screwing up the bass in the signal chain.

So I'm really, really hoping we can get this figured out and working properly for you! Cause once everything up stream is working the way it should, your speakers and sub will deliver big time. And that's what all this is about!

 

[Djeayzonne]

Yeah, I do appreciate the help.

I would have noticed sooner or later. Already did with Lion King, but I figured it was probably due to its age.

I did buy a cheap DVD player when I returned to the US last summer. I will have to hook it up to make sure.

By the way, on your comment about HDTV being broadcast in Dolby Digital, I have been wondering about that. When I watch something like Dexter on Showtime, it is Dolby as expected. But it seems like when I just watch some normal HDTV channel, like Tennis Channel HD, it turns to that PII format.

Also, what about Netflix and Hulu Plus?
I tried streaming it from the Netflix app in the Viera TV, and it was that same PII stuff.

Also, to be honest, all these different listening modes has me really confused. Should I turn on the Dolby Volume or the Audyssey EQ? Can't have both. What about the THX options? Just seems crazy to have that many gimmick features unless they are really useful and all different.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, there are so many sound codecs, DSP modes and volume compression formats now. And Onkyo pretty much stuffs them all into their receivers!

All HDTV audio is Dolby Digital. But that doesn't mean it's all 5.1! Lots of HDTV is still just stereo. It's encoded in Dolby Digital, but it's still just 2.0 a lot of the time. So the default is for Dolby Pro Logic II to kick in to turn that 2.0 Dolby Digital signal into a 5.1 mix. Dolby Pro Logic IIx can be used to turn it into 7.1. And Dolby Pro Logic IIz can add front height into the mix if you like

The various online streaming formats tend to still use stereo for a lot of the titles offered. There are some 5.1 Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital Plus mixes. But a lot of it is just stereo. So again, anything that's stereo will kick in Dolby Pro Logic II if that's the default in the receiver's set up menus.

For the various loudness formats, there's Audyssey Volume, Dolby Volume and THX Loudness Plus. They all try to address the same thing - namely, loud, unwanted swings in volume from things like TV commercials - but they each have their own algorithm, so they all compete and you can't use more than one at a time. To be honest, I always turn all of them off. I want to retain the full dynamics of the original content, so I don't use any of these volume compression formats. But it's a matter of taste. If you listen below reference levels, they can help to boost the bass and surround effects so that they are still audible. Usually though, if you've got the volume turned down, the last thing you want is louder bass, 'cause it's probably at night and you're probably trying not to bother anyone!

So I just turn them all off. But there's no "right" choice. Just personal taste. But for figuring out this problem, definitely turn them all off! You just want a regular old Dolby Digital signal. No extra THX, volume compression or even Audyssey EQ for the moment. We just want to figure out how to get all the bass to your subwoofer first! After that, you can start adding processing on top and seeing how you like it

 

[timoteo]

Not all HDTV programming is broadcast in Dolby Digital 5.1, many are still broadcast in Stereo. When your receiver sees the Stereo signal it defaults to PLII & that takes the 2channel & turns it into 5.1. That is why sometimes you see DolbyD & other times PLII. That is normal & nothing you can do about it. I leave my Yamaha in Straight mode which plays exactly what the channel is broadcast in & no processing is done. You can change the settings for it to play that way but if you like how it sounds now then just leave it alone.

 

[Djeayzonne]

I did a little reading on how to do a proper audyssey calibration and redid it.
I then hooked up the cheap DVD player. After quite a bit of messing around, it now sounds the way you described.

I ended up turning all speakers to 200 HZ, then boosted the bass on the main speakers to +10. Also, the LFE was just getting in the way too much, so I turned it down -20. When I did the audyssey calibration at the beginning I set the volume on the sub to -22 to get the 75db that it requested. This was a little weak, so I then adjusted sub level to +1.0. I turned up the sub vol to -16, and increased level on receiver to 2.0.

Though I think this was also partly differences in what constitutes a strong bass line. The fact is, that riff is pretty weak compared to listening to dub step all the time. I kept trying to get this strong bass line like with what I am used to.

Anyway it is clean now, all notes come from the sub and sound strong for that kind of patch. Now that I understand it's not just that strong a bass line, I might turn down levels a bit after I listen to more stuff. Letting Matrix play out as I write this and the LFE sounds great, maybe just a tad too much.

Thanks again for everyone's help and hope this is useful for others in the future.

 

[Djeayzonne]

After rechecking the frequency graph on the svs website, it plays pretty well to 300 HZ! But it's
pretty flat to 150, so i am going to change all speakers to 150, and i think i will also plug one port and change to 16hz mode. We will see how it goes.