HT Newbie - Advice for Sub please

[FirstReflection]

I just went through my discs, Avatar BD, Fight Club DVD, and Akira DVD. Avatar has no such menu option, and the only thing the two DVDs provide is a test to make sure you have your speakers wired properly.

Anyway, I just bought the Audio Tools app by Six Digital for iPhone, so I want something to test the whole system not just the bass anyway. Any recommendations for something like that?

The Audio Tools app is pretty powerful actually, especially when you add the FFT add-on, which really lets you graph the frequency response well. The only problem is that the iPhone's built-in mic can't measure bass. It's got a filter that cuts off the bass pretty drastically. You can add Studio Six Digital's iAudioInterface 2 to actually get a really good measurement set up if you get a linear mic for it, but it's a bit on the expensive side once you total it all up.

The Audio Tools app is good for a quick and very rough idea of your general response if you use it just with the iPhone itself. But like I say, it's really not accurate for bass readings. The SPL meter is actually very good - but again, just not for bass.

To measure your room properly, here's what I recommend:

Start with a good, linear microphone. The Dayton EMM-6 is one of the better deals. You can go to Dayton's website and plug in the serial number for your exact EMM-6 mic and get a correction file for that specific microphone that you have! Some folks claim that Dayton's correction files are not perfect. The mic is already pretty darn linear all on its own though, so I don't see it as a big deal either way. You're looking for larger peaks and dips anyway. The EMM-6 won't give you laboratory-grade results - it'll be off by 1-2dB here and there - but that's perfectly fine for your purposes. We're looking for bigger dips and peaks than that

The Behringer ECM8000 mic is almost identical and pretty much the "go to" mic for most home users. So either of those mics is a great place to start!

The Dayton and Behringer mics both come with a microphone stand clip. You'll want a basic mic stand so that you can hold the mic perfectly in place while you're measuring. You don't need anything fancy, but it's nice to have a boom on the stand so that you can put the stand behind your seat and use the boom to lower the mic into position exactly where your head would be if you were sitting in your seat. Something like this $15 Pyle Pro Tripod Stand is perfectly fine.

You'll need a basic XLR microphone cable. Get yourself a nice long length so that it's easy to move around.

Now you need to connect your mic to your computer. Best way to do that is with a USB microphone pre-amp. That pre-amp also needs to supply the Dayton or Behringer microphone with "phantom power", since either mic requires a power supply. The ART USB Dual Pre gives you everything you need in one, handy, small package

Now you just need software to give you some pretty graphs and supply the test tones. Room EQ Wizard (REW) is FREE and extremely powerful and flexible. Do yourself a favor and read through the many (and lengthy) online help files to really get a grip on what REW can do. You certainly don't need to understand or worry about all of it. You really just need to know how to connect and set up your mic, get a basic frequency response graph with 1/24 octave resolution (you can get even higher resolution, but 1/24 octave works well and pretty much catches any problems) and that's about it.

If you find that the PC13-Ultra's 2 bands of EQ are not enough, you can always add an outboard EQ. Personally, I like the Behringer DSP1124P . It's not too expensive (about $100), it's easy to understand and use, and best of all, REW is able to work with it automatically! All you need is a USB-to-MIDI cable (about $30-$35), and REW can automatically set up the DSP1124P for you!

There are other outboard EQ units that work with REW as well, but most are more expensive. The DSP1124P, sadly, looks like it's being discontinued, but they're still available for the moment. You might not need an outboard EQ unit at all though, thanks to the 2-band built-in EQ in your PC13-Ultra. 2-bands aren't much, but you should be able to knock down your two worst peaks, which is sometimes enough to get pretty decently flat response, so certainly worth trying first. The PC13-Ultra also has its multiple "modes" of operation with the port plugs and extension settings. Plus there are the room gain compensation settings to counteract room gain in the deepest bass, so the PC13-Ultra actually has significant EQ controls when you combine all of the options, making an outboard EQ unit like the DSP1124P not as likely to be necessary

 

[Djeayzonne]

Another great post.

That EQ looks pretty nice.

Do you have any recommendations for an EQ I can use for the whole system?
The manual EQ on the Onkyo is very limited, I think it is only a 7- or maybe 9-band EQ. Or is the Audyssey enough for the everything but the bass?

Then again though, that experience with the Swan Lake ballet tells me it is not.

Any thoughts?

 

[FirstReflection]

EQ'ing the full range is a much more involved task, and not something that is typically done. Higher frequencies are much less affected by the room. You do get the strong first reflection points, but those are better treated with passive absorption and diffusion panels. Separate EQ is primarily for the bass. EQ'ing your speakers alters their "character", which isn't something that most people want to do. If you're starting with linear, accurate speakers, there's no need to "take them out of the room" with EQ. It can sound unnatural.

One thing with the way Onkyo uses Audyssey: Onkyo uses the "Audyssey Curve" EQ profile, which isn't perfectly linear and flat. It's a "house curve" that's meant to appeal to most people's taste. If you want a genuinely flat and linear EQ from Audyssey on an Onkyo receiver, you have to engage one of the THX listening modes. The THX modes put Audyssey into its "Flat" profile because THX applies its own EQ! You can turn off the THX EQ manually (it's called "Re-EQ" and there should be a button to toggle it on and off on the remote.

This can be a small pain because Re-EQ is on by default, and every time you power off your receiver and then power it back on, Re-EQ turns itself back on again! It doesn't "remember" to stay turned off if you toggle it off. So you have to toggle it off manually every time! Not the end of the world, but it's one of those things that visitors or the wife rarely remembers to do - although they likely won't care or notice anyway

Anywho Behringer's got the DCX2496 for around $275 if you want a more advanced unit that can EQ and adjust more of your system. It's a pretty daunting unit in terms of all the options that it has. I haven't used it personally. But I'm sure you could read through the manual and get a handle on it if you like

I'd focus heavily on being able to measure your system first though. Measure it. Adjust the placement. Get as many of the big dips out of your setup as possible. Use the PC13-Ultra's many tuning options to EQ the bass - it very well might be all you need to get pretty darn flat response at your seat.

If the cross-over between the sub and speakers is still a trouble spot, spend your money on a separate amp for the Front L/R speakers so that you can use the PC13-Ultra's built-in high pass and low pass options for a perfect cross-over!

I wouldn't go jumping on an EQ right away. That should be the last thing to try out and spend your money on. Measurement gear should be number 1 since you're having some pretty tough issues. You really need to be able to see what's going on! The "free" fixes of placement and the built-in EQ options on your sub should be next. Passive room treatments can tame any strong reflections if your speakers are having clarity or imaging issues. And bass traps can reduce the severity of your peaks and dips in the bass. And the crossover - I'm really hoping that maybe the Onkyo isn't screwing up afterall...maybe it is all just placement and room acoustic issues. But if the Onkyo IS screwing up the bass management, a separate amp and your PC13-Ultra can fix that.

After ALL of that, you can look to separate EQ units like the Behringers. It's your last line of defence to take care of any issues that placement, room treatments and proper crossover cannot fix

 

[Djeayzonne]

Thanks again for the education.

After the Australian Open is over, I am going to paint the room dark and at that point install the projector and screen.

The only real option I have on placement is to turn it on its side and have it lie under the screen behind the stands for the center, which was also be under the screen but will have to be in a bit out in front if I place the sub under the screen against the wall.

So, I have also been wondering if getting some traps will provide a good solution so that I can keep it in its current location. What do you think about that? Who makes good traps that are reasonably priced?

Got it on EQ for the non-bass. I won't do it now, but I will treat the room later on to deal with reflections unless there is some solution that is quick and cheap.

I do think the Onkyo is managing bass properly now that I have gotten more familiar with its options and went through them. I think I need to take a re-listen of Lion King and see if there is any difference there.

Thanks again for everything, though maybe I shouldn't be so thankful as you parted me from 1700!!!

 

[FirstReflection]

And $1700 was just the start! There could be more once measurement gear, passive room treatments, separate amps, and possibly EQ units come into the picture Such is the life of any budding home theater nut though

As mentioned before, passive bass traps won't "fix" the interference that causes peaks and dips. Bass traps are literally just insulation, so all they are doing is reducing the strength of the reflected bass waves as they get to the wall and reflect off of the wall's surface. With weaker reflections, you get less interference, but you don't eliminate it entirely.

Bass traps also work at different frequencies depending on how thick they are. Your standard 4" thick trap works well down to about 80 Hz and nicely dampens most of the frequency range above 80Hz as well. With a thicker 6" trap, you get good absorption down to around 70Hz or so. So once again, it's important to measure first to see where your troubles lie!

Acoustimac.com and gikacoustics.com are the best places I know for very reasonably priced passive room treatments. Acoustimac's are a bit less expensive individually. They also offer a larger variety of standar sizes and shapes. GiK offers great diffusion panels that Acoustimac doesn't sell. And GiK also has room kits with several panels included at a reduced package price. Both offer more expensive panels with frames, suede coverings, or printed panels that can have any image you like! The printed panels with a frame can replace artwork or posters while providing acoustic benefits, so they're a fantastic WAF purchase

I don't know if the below the screen placement will be better or not. But it's certainly worth a try! The center of the front wall is often the best spot for a single sub, so it's certainly a potential candidate.

My best advice is, go through the process step by step. Start with no Audyssey and no Dynamic Volume or Loudness Plus or Dolby Volume or anything. Do the crawling for bass or simply move your sub to every potential location and try to find the best spot with the fewest dips. Then try a combination of the EQ options you already have in the PC13-Ultra and Audyssey. Use bass traps if you have peaks or dips in the frequencies where the bass traps are effective to decrease them and make the job of the EQ easier. Try a separate EQ if all of that doesn't flatten the response enough.

Through ALL stages, you'll want to measure so that you can see what your frequency response looks like. And the crossover is its own thing. That's all about whether the bass from the Front speakers is being sent properly to the sub or not, so that's its own, separate issue. If you get good, linear, flat response through positioning, bass traps and EQ, but you still end up with bass "missing" from soundtracks because it isn't being fed to the subwoofer properly, that's a separate issue that a separate amp and the PC13-Ultra's high pass and low pass filters can fix.

But do it step by step and measure at every step. There's no point spending money and time on bass traps if all of your problems are below the frequencies where bass traps are effective. And no sense keeping the sub in a "bad" spot if a better spot is available. Positioning is your first line of defense! So start there. Measure, measure, measure. And add "layers" of correction in steps until you get the response that you're after

 

[Djeayzonne]

Short update,

I finally took off the grill, plugged a port and changed to 16 hz mode. I do think I will like this mode better but didn't listen much afterwards yet. After this though I did play around with lion king again. The receiver is managing bass properly. I think before I probably had it on an inappropriate listening mode, but mostly the movie isn't mastered well, at least not to my tastes. The difference between bass level and LFE level is at least 20db. After I turned on dynamic volume and jacked the sub level up the bass in the music could be heard and had good blend, but bass in music from all speakers is just weak. The LFE is a little too loud with this movie, but with changing the port and tune to 16 hz, the elephant stops are even better than before. Looking forward to spending more time with it. I do plan to get the basic equipment to test but probably not until March. I will however change the location after painting and setting up the projector.

 

[FirstReflection]

Cool. I'm really glad the Onkyo might be ok afterall in its bass management! That can be a royal pain otherwise. But what you were describing before sounded similar to the issues I'd had in the past with old models so I thought it was still a possibility.

Changing the port tune has dropped your 20-25Hz output a little bit, but made extension down to 15Hz flatter in so much as what the subwoofer itself is putting out. Depending on your room, this will often help combat the room gain in the deepest bass by making the output from the sub in those frequencies a little quieter.

I'll really be looking forward to you being able to measure and try some more positions and EQ settings! I mostly wanted to get you the music performance that you were after! So getting everything dialed in and accurate is paramount

 

[Djeayzonne]

Yeah, although that mic isn't very expensive, I have been told to chill on focusing only on the media room until some of the other parts of the house are in order. Kinda wished I hadn't bought that app. Maybe I will sneak it in somewhere along with some other purchase.

Iwill start doing some critical listening though now that he Australian is almost over

 

[FirstReflection]

The AudioTools app is only, what...about $20 or something, right? I wouldn't regret that It's actually very impressive software. It's just limited by the iPhone's built-in mic that cuts off pretty steep below 125Hz or so. A better mic with the iAudioInterface2 hardware gets you a really good measurement suite! It's good enough that you could use it for some pretty serious audio measurements and calibration. But yeah, the iAudioInterface2 is $400, which is pretty darn pricey. And you still have to supply a separate mic with that

So the mic, a microphone pre-amp that supplies phantom power and a USB interface, your laptop (assuming you already have one ) and the free Room EQ Wizard software turns out to be about the least expensive measurement setup for delivering pretty darn accurate results. For even cheaper, REW, your laptop and an SPL meter like the RadioShack meter or the Galaxy Audio CM-140 can do pretty well with REW's built-in correction curves for those SPL meters. You can certainly use your iPhone and the AudioTools app for a quick and easy "ballpark" reading of your audio system. And for $20, that's pretty awesome! It's also good to be able to compare, just to see the consistency (or lack thereof) across a couple of different measurement setups

 

[Djeayzonne]

Yeah, actually if you remember I mentioned I produce as a hobby, so I already have an audio interface so I would need to buy is the mic and the stand.

 

[Djeayzonne]

Oh My F***ING GOD!

Sorry I haven't popped in to write a proper review mates.

It is still difficult for me to write a 'proper' review because frankly, I just don't care about all the little things like how it looks, its packaging, how much it weights, blah, blah.

I also still haven't gotten a mic to do a proper evaluation and set up of the sub's EQ, but I have gotten overall speaker and receiver settings dialed in pretty well according to my ears. I will do the proper set up with a mic in the near future though.

Still, I can truly sum up this subwoofer in one word---TEXTURE.

This is an entirely new experience for me, and quite frankly it should be the defacto standard that defines what a subwoofer is. I am not sure what the industry would actually term this quality, but if a speaker doesn't do this, it should not be labeled a subwoofer, period.

It is not just for music with heavy and deep bass or explosions in movies, physical texture can be just as subtle as a light breeze on your skin, the feeling of a cat's tongue when being licked, of the feeling of the bark on a thin tree branch.

And that is EXACTLY what this sub does. It truly takes 'listening' to music to just as much a physical experience. Again, doesn't mean you have to be listening to anything particularly loud either. If a particular sound seems like it should 'tickle' you, then it does. If a sound seems like it should light scratch you with sandpaper but not to the point of pain, it does. If I sound is supposed to punch you, it does that too, but this amazing dynamic range of its ability to produce all these various physical responses is just amazing. Again, something I never experienced before, so something I never bothered to consider.

It occurred to me in nature that this happens as well, though a bit rarely. It is kind of like the feeling you get when someone with a V8 pickup truck next door to you leaves it in idle a bit and then takes off.

Plus the thing is just so damn accurate, so combining this accuracy and dead-stop quickness and control with this texture property to the sound, it just makes the immersion process surreal and easy to do. Combined with the rest of the system, the 3D spatial characteristics created by the surround speakers and receiver logic makes things ultrarealistic. Only thing missing is changes in humidity/temperature and smells to really recreate the scene.

Of course, I have always been a bit of a bass head. So when listening to proper hard DNB, this thing just blows my mind. After listening to this music for nearly 20 years, I thought I knew what it should sound like. Not a f***ing chance. Club systems cannot reproduce this depth. I haven't heard a car system that can produce this depth either. When you get a very low synthetic bass note that wobbles, you feel it everywhere. I can give myself a massage with this sub. It also just might loosen you up if you are constipated as well. If you could sustain the proper note at the proper amount of wobbling, it would almost feel as if you were physically levitating on the bass.

And for all of this, no matter how loud or how long, no listening fatigue. This is also a new experience for me-one I thought impossible. Unfortunately, there is just a tiny bit of listening fatigue from the tweeters of the Paradigm towers.

It is just clean. Powerful, articulate, beautiful (the sound), deep, heavy, pounding, fast, controlled CLEAN sound. And to top it off, you get a new listening experience with the texture the sub gives to sounds. Not just strictly 'bass' notes either.

This is the single most amazing piece of kit I have bought or had the pleasure of experiencing. If there is anything even better than this, I would pay whatever price they demanded assuming I had the funds to do so. If I had known what I was getting for the money before making the purchase, it would have been the most 'no-brainer' purchase of my life.

If you like the music I like, get one of these before your sense of what it should sound like becomes habit.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hey! Welcome back!

Great to hear from you, Djeayzonne. And FANTASTIC to hear how much you're enjoying your PC13-Ultra! I'm so, so happy, and frankly, a bit relieved! I know how it took a lot of fiddling and patience on your part to get the new sub placed and integrated with your receiver and speakers. But I'm so happy that you got it all worked out and now you're hearing what the PC13- Ultra can do! I feel much better now because I really hyped and sold this sub to you So glad it didn't make a liar out of me

So yeah, I think you'll agree with me that when the PC13-Ultra is doing its thing, it's just extremely impressive. The experience you're describing, it IS rare, it DOES cost good money to achieve, and in my experience, no other sub ha delivered it for a lower price, which is why I recommended it so strongly to you after you described what you listen to and what you wanted. I think you'll also agree with what I was saying before where after hearing this level of quality bass, it's basically impossible to "settle" for less

I know how much people focus on sheer SPL capabilities. For me, what got me all excited about the PB/PC13-Ultra was its ridiculously low distortion. I've had people disagree with me when I describe being able to hear high distortion in subs and my proclamations that the quality of bass pretty much comes down to extension, linear power response (ie. maintaining the same frequency response regardless of how loud the sub is playing) low distortion and fast transient response. We humans really aren't very good at hearing bass. But if we're able to pick out any differences, to my ear, it's always been within these simple metrics.

But your descriptions are an excellent way to describe what I've been trying to convey. It's "texture" as you say. And also, that uncanny sense of realism. I find that to be the case with speakers too. Frequency response graphs and sheer SPL capabilities ARE important, and they're all well and good. But they are NOT the full experience. When a speaker had vanishingly low distortion and superb transient response, it results in a similar experience. A greater "texture" to the sound. And that uncanny realism

So trust me, I've not heard a better sub that costs less than your PC13-Ultra for the price you paid, I honestly feel it's as good as it gets. And I'm so happy you got it all sorted out and got to experience what I know the PC13-Ultra can deliver! It IS a new experience. It's awesome. And I'll be honest, personally, I really haven't heard better. I've heard louder. I've heard "as good". But not outright "better". And certainly not for anywhere near the same price.

So really, all that's left is to get 1-3 more so that every seat in the theater can experience the same sound

Great feedback and great to see you back on the board. Keep us posted!

 

[MusicLover1]

Sub-Woofer connection

Hello! my friends,

I need your helps. I plan to get a new Sub-Woofer Klipsch SW-110 to add bass level to my existing system:

- Pre-Amp: Yamaha CX-2
- Ampl.: Yamaha MX-2
- FloorStanding LoudSpeakers Energy RC-70

Please tell me how to hook up the Sub to Pre-Amp CX-2
My basement measyrement is: 7.5' H x 16' W x 27' L.

Thanks,