Dream Speakers Under $6,000 Retail

zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Unless, you want to hear some EPOS M22I's at $2600, or REGA RS7 for $3K, or Naim Audio Allae $3K, or Focal 836's at $3K, or Revel F32's at $4K, PSB Sync. Ones at $5.5K, B&W 804D at $7K.
If you are window shopping Focal - then look at the Electra.
Their tweeter may be for you.
http://www.musicdirect.com/popup.aspx?src=images/Product/large/AFOCAL1027S.jpg&productName=FOCAL - ELECTRA 1027 S TOWER SPEAKERS (PR)&type=product

Music Direct - FOCAL - ELECTRA 1027 S TOWER SPEAKERS (PR)
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Why worry it is a KEF, with a huge Engr. dept. and a full anechoic chamber w/ all the instrumentation to measure almost anything they need to on a speaker!

What -- you do not believe in KEF's measurements (I DO)?

Look around and see if you can find some 3rd Party measurements, you might have to wait a while until they get into higher production.
Just that you state it as a fact...so I was wondering where you got it from.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Hey Walter.... I've never had a chance to audition those Phase Techs... maybe during my winter break i'll call them up and find out if i've got a dealer nearby. The on and off axis response chart of the PC80s on stereophile definitely puts Phase Tech on my 'interested' list.

If you like them, I already know they can take a beating!!! Based on the driver sizes and layouts, it probably has a very, very wide dispersion which means they're well suited to wide rooms... width like 22+ feet... that should give them a huge soundstage. They probably want 8 - 10 feet distance for the drivers to properly sum up.

I know ITI is also a fan of their fully active digital speaker line, the DARTs, and I normally trust his subjective impressions too, except when it comes to overpriced mini subs ;P. Another speaker he really liked was the BG Radia on wall line arrays.

If I do in fact have a dealer nearby i'll hit it up and give my impressions!
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Normalized, yes, but i'm not so sure about the low part.
Normalizing just gives a basis of comparing across drivers. Say the raw number is 3mH. The effect of that is rather different on an 8Ω voicecoil compared to a 1Ω vc.

I think as long as inductance isn't ridiculous, it matters more that shorting rings are employed rather than absolutely low inductance.
The TC3000 is convincing evidence that shorting rings alone aren't enough. Though you don't preclude that with your analysis, if you consider its inductance to be "ridiculous."

I do share your general intuition that Le(x) variation is more significant than static Le, though.

I think my mal-x gen 2 with around 4mH of indutance is avtually very good higher up in frequency.
The Mk. II had a single 4Ω coil, right? That puts it at about 1mH/Ω. Not too high. Though I like my preorder Mk. I's almost Aura-like ~.22mH/Ω better. :)

he was implying that a setup such as yours would be limited in the infrasonics because only the main woofer is really contributing to deep headroom.
Which is simply wrong. All of them contribute, because in the "first mode" (~40Hz down) region where subs are often xmax-limited rather than amp limited, they sum in phase. "Deep headroom" is only limited by the sum of the individual volume displacements.

Consider that at 20Hz S1 is capable of a modeled 100.5dB at xmax, S2 is capable of 94.2dB at xmax, and S3 is capable of 92.9dB at xmax. The in-phase sum of those three values is 106dB. That's a lot more "deep headroom" than S1 alone provides.

Only this system, because the load is spread over 2 3" voicecoils with their own cooling systems and one 2" vc, is likely to be closer to the modeled 106dB than a single subwoofer that models at 106dB/20Hz, because of lower power compression.

Others may well choose sub systems with greater combined Vd. Here, keep in mind that the mains in this temporary are 4.5" Uni-Q's in small eggs, so it's not like I need 115dB capability at 20Hz.

Because of the wide baffle, I'm not so sure. I think more relevant in that scenario is that the power response from the rear tweeter is kept consistent. The polars are mostly contolled by the 1.4khz crossover.
At which frequency the two tweeters will still have dipole cancellation, for an effective 90deg pattern.

I'd love to hear one using the RAAL 140-15D Dipole
I've seen no reason to suggest that it would better, or even equal, the Neo3 in that particular system. The Neo3 is more likely to radiate symmetrically, given its magnet configuration.

matching DI is a given..
Sadly, on the overwhelming majority of of "high end" speakers, it is not. Here are the horizontal off-axis measurements for the most recent speaker on Stereophile's website.




I think a speaker needs wide dispersion out to at least 60 degrees, maybe even 70 from 1khz to 10khz.
You mean per side, so 120-140deg total? I'm not sure I buy that.

'm not convinced as far as needing declining sound power. I think "declining sound power" is just a translation for "adequate baffle step compensation" in monopole speakers and "drivers that can handle power in the midband and cross smoothly to other drivers".
No, because baffle step is much lower in frequency, and sound power has nothing to do with power handling or driver hand-offs.

I feel that flat - but (not omni radiation without the right placement) sound power + flat frequency response CAN in fact work.. it's just not possible with corrent drivers.
Try it. Flat sound power just sounds bright as hell.

Thanks for clarifying. I am intrigued by his differing approach.
If you're using Dr. Geddes' sequential setup approach, our approaches do not in fact differ. I'm just carrying the Geddes approach a step further back, designing each sub to have adequate capability for the actual role it plays in the combined system.

IOW, what does differ is that you're leaving a lot of output in reserve, because you're basically limited to the max SPL of the main sub plus much less contribution from the other subs. (I suspect the rest of them are down in level somewhere between -3dB and -15dB compared to the first sub, because otherwise you're not doing Dr. Geddes' approach of sequential setup.) By contrast, I basically designed my auxiliary subs to overload at about the same time the main sub does, considering the relative levels each one plays at in order to maximally enhance performance in the modal region.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
P.S. Revel's Ultima Salon 2's was in my top 5, which is a "big boy" company, but only fools think only the large companies make great products.
I am not sure if there are such fools around here who really think only................ but personally I do prefer (just preference, not belief)to stick with the "big/bigger" boys simply because the odds are better if I am making my decision largely base on specs and reviews (all sorts). I find it very difficult and even unrealistic to just go and listen to 20 pairs of speakers and be able to conclude which are my top five. JMHO

BTW, would you consider the Electra 1028 for your top 5, or 10 list? I assume their street price could be <6K.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Normalizing just gives a basis of comparing across drivers. Say the raw number is 3mH. The effect of that is rather different on an 8Ω voicecoil compared to a 1Ω vc.
I thought you meant "linearized"

The TC3000 is convincing evidence that shorting rings alone aren't enough.
The placement and implementation matter of course, but at some point it comes irrelevant. I couldn't define that point but it's probably higher than you think.

The Mk. II had a single 4Ω coil, right?
Close enough. it's got dual 2 ohm VC

I've seen no reason to suggest that it would better, or even equal, the Neo3 in that particular system. The Neo3 is more likely to radiate symmetrically, given its magnet configuration.
It really comes down to actual performance. There's a reason people like the RAAL, and not because it's some fad. Tons of measured factors at play but the people who have used both know which one they'd use.

Sadly, on the overwhelming majority of of "high end" speakers, it is not. Here are the horizontal off-axis measurements for the most recent speaker on Stereophile's website.

I know, but DI matching still doesn't address the issue of metal vs soft dome. Harman has shown almost an absolute preference for metal which implies there's some reasoning behind it.

You mean per side, so 120-140deg total? I'm not sure I buy that.
it's what the perceptual research seems to show.

No, because baffle step is much lower in frequency, and sound power has nothing to do with power handling or driver hand-offs.
Most narrow speakers have their baffle step around 7-800hz. It contributes to a big bump in power.

And of course it has to do with driver handoffs. A 1/2" tweeter necesdary for non tapering power response can't play down deep enough for a decent crossover, at least not at meaningful SPLs.

Try it. Flat sound power just sounds bright as hell.
The controls have to be in place... no very early reflections (10-15ms) so a large space is probablynecessary. ;;;;::No:: baffle step below 15khz. (even Pluto has a baffle step at 3khz)

Remember we're not talking about artificially enhanced sound power via eq. we're talking about even radiation into evey direction with sufficient delay to reflected sound.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Consider that at 20Hz S1 is capable of a modeled 100.5dB at xmax, S2 is capable of 94.2dB at xmax, and S3 is capable of 92.9dB at xmax. The in-phase sum of those three values is 106dB. That's a lot more "deep headroom" than S1 alone provides.

the mains in this temporary are 4.5" Uni-Q's in small eggs, so it's not like I need 115dB capability at 20Hz.


If you're using Dr. Geddes' sequential setup approach, our approaches do not in fact differ. I'm just carrying the Geddes approach a step further back, designing each sub to have adequate capability for the actual role it plays in the combined system.

IOW, what does differ is that you're leaving a lot of output in reserve, because you're basically limited to the max SPL of the main sub plus much less contribution from the other subs. (I suspect the rest of them are down in level somewhere between -3dB and -15dB compared to the first sub, because otherwise you're not doing Dr. Geddes' approach of sequential setup.) By contrast, I basically designed my auxiliary subs to overload at about the same time the main sub does, considering the relative levels each one plays at in order to maximally enhance performance in the modal region.
I do have a pair of sub drivers that might work with this idea. Keep in mind my mains will have 50hz capability. So I'm not sure how much help addition subs would provide.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Start listening where? This is the problem for your information -- who has all those in Washington State? If I want to hear some KEF Q900 ok they have them at around $600 per box, but not interested -- I have made a dozen calls and not a soul has any of those you have listed -- in fact due to these trying Economic Times, you will find nothing around in the price range of <$5K or so per Pair.

Unless, you want to hear some EPOS M22I's at $2600, or REGA RS7 for $3K, or Naim Audio Allae $3K, or Focal 836's at $3K, or Revel F32's at $4K, PSB Sync. Ones at $5.5K, B&W 804D at $7K.

So for us forget the PSB's, and B&W's over $5K... no go. Ah, I have it, a nice NEW Pair of Klipsch RF-7II's at $2.2K and even in Cherry Real Wood Veneer, wow what a deal just like the Rippyman and at 101dB Sensitivity they will Rock the Floors/Glass and chase all these darn dogs out of our Yard also... :D And we would have a lot of monies left over for Holiday Cheers to boot and crank it up as well!

Well, how about some NEW KEF R900's at <$5K, around $3.6K that might work also... on the Audition list when the boat comes in from China.

Even, the 8" driver smaller Tannoy DC8T's list out at $2800 EACH, over the ceiling price.
Well there you go - those Focal's, Revel's or Klipsch's might be right up your alley. Why don't you go listen to them instead of spewing mis-information about speakers you've never even heard, let alone companies you know nothing about? Seriously...

I am not sure if there are such fools around here who really think only................ but personally I do prefer (just preference, not belief)to stick with the "big/bigger" boys simply because the odds are better if I am making my decision largely base on specs and reviews (all sorts). I find it very difficult and even unrealistic to just go and listen to 20 pairs of speakers and be able to conclude which are my top five. JMHO

BTW, would you consider the Electra 1028 for your top 5, or 10 list? I assume their street price could be <6K.
I admit, my top five list didn't have a budget of 6K or less.:) They are just the best five speakers I've ever heard. I'd have to completely redefine that list if my budget was capped at $6000. I know...that doesn't apply to this thread, but I was responding to DPS' inaccurate claims. For what it's worth, the best speaker I've heard near that price range is the Linkwitz Orion.

I wasn't knocking the "big boy" companies, by the way; a lot of them make great products. I was just refuting DPS's nonsense statement that they are the only ones we should purchase from.

I've heard a few Focal speakers, and I believe the 1028 Be is what I heard at RMAF. Are these them?



If those are them, I actually liked them for the most part. The highs were a touch bright, but not too much; they walked the line but never strayed passed it. And sometimes the sound was a touch analytic, but nothing offensive. I can't find my RMAF notes right now, but that's what I recall. They are certainly one of the nicest speakers I've seen in person; sexy looking even.:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If those are them, I actually liked them for the most part. The highs were a touch bright, but not too much; they walked the line but never strayed passed it. And sometimes the sound was a touch analytic, but nothing offensive. I can't find my RMAF notes right now, but that's what I recall. They are certainly one of the nicest speakers I've seen in person; sexy looking even.:)
I think they are them, but the 1028 and the 1038 look alike except the 38's are larger. Regarding the a touch bright comment, like the Digm Sig V3's they also use Be tweeters. You had the S8 on your list but used only so I assume you factored in the $/perf ratio? Did you find the S8 a touch bright too? Since my "dream" ones are way our of my price range I am left with the S6 (probably stretchable to the 8), Syn One or the 1028 (pretty sure the 1038 will be way over 10K in Canada). I have listened to the Digms and the Electras but again, hard to say which one sounds better because I could not do any AB comparisons. My final choice will be based on price, specs/graphs and look. Have you seen any graphs for the 1028 or 1038 Be?

Oh, I know you were not knocking the B/M companies and neither am I knocking the smaller one/ID ones. We just have different preference due to our different situations, and locations too.:D
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
This is the Electra 1028
Focal Electra 1028 Be Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

The 1028 Be’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.75/–1.84 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 48 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 41 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.72 ohms at 403 Hz and a phase angle of +48.30 degrees at 812 Hz.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
DPS & PENG will get their dream speakers. It's just a matter of time. You have to give DPS a lot of credit for trying out those Aperion speakers, which was a pain in the back for his 60 yr old retired engineer body.:D

The journey to finding the dream speakers, as Nuance will attests to, takes a lot of effort, energy, and time.

But DenPureSound will get their one day.:D

Have some faith. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This is the Electra 1028
Focal Electra 1028 Be Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

The 1028 Be’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.75/–1.84 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 48 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 41 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.72 ohms at 403 Hz and a phase angle of +48.30 degrees at 812 Hz.
The S8's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.92/–1.44 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

The Synchrony One's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.18/–2.24 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

There you go, PENG & DenPureSound.:D
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
DPS & PENG will get their dream speakers. It's just a matter of time. You have to give DPS a lot of credit for trying out those Aperion speakers, which was a pain in the back for his 60 yr old retired engineer body.:D

The journey to finding the dream speakers, as Nuance will attests to, takes a lot of effort, energy, and time.

But DenPureSound will get their one day.:D

Have some faith. :D
My money will be riding on Peng....fwiw....;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My money will be riding on Peng....fwiw....;)
If DenPureSound hadn't returned the Aperion, I would have won the bet.:eek:

It's not a race. I wouldn't want it to be a race. Dream speakers cost a lot of money. We want anyone buying dream speakers to be absolutely sure.

So far, we've mentioned KEF, Revel, Paradigm, PSB, Focal, Tannoy, Phase Technology, Philharmonic, Salk, Thiel, NHT, Ascend, & Klipsch.

PENG has already listened to both the Paradigm & PSB.

DenPureSound has only listened to Klipsch & Aperion.

I told DenPureSound that his next step must be to drive to Spokane, Washington, and audition KEF, Martin Logan, NHT, DefTech.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
If DenPureSound hadn't returned the Aperion, I would have won the bet.:eek:

It's not a race. I wouldn't want it to be a race. Dream speakers cost a lot of money. We want anyone buying dream speakers to be absolutely sure.

So far, we've mentioned KEF, Revel, Paradigm, PSB, Focal, Tannoy, Phase Technology, Philharmonic, Salk, Thiel, NHT, Ascend, & Klipsch.

PENG has already listened to both the Paradigm & PSB.

DenPureSound has only listened to Klipsch & Aperion.

I told DenPureSound that his next step must be to drive to Spokane, Washington, and audition KEF, Martin Logan, NHT, DefTech.
I think a trip to the beach might be more profitable. :D

You definitely should check out any speakers you can. DFW has very few places for honest auditions.
 
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