I have roughly $1000 to spend on upgrades.

A

avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
Come tax time I think I'm going to have roughly $1000 to spend on some upgrades. I was wondering what everyone thinks would be the best option. I'm leaning towards a new receiver. I've had my eye on an Onkyo TX-NR809. New it's $1099 and I've found them used from about $500. I'm also thinking of adding another sub since the Onkyo is 7.2.

You can see my current setup in my signature.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

-Adam
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Just one man's opinion, but I'd take pretty much your whole budget and spend it on a new, great subwoofer. IMO, that's the biggest upgrade you could make to your current setup without spending significantly more.

I don't know your room size though, or if it has openings to other rooms. Nor do I know whether you mostly care about music or movies, or what type of music - basically whether you would prefer hitting the really deep 20Hz stuff with as much force as possible, or whether top notch accuracy and performance above 30Hz is more of a concern.

Then there's question of whether you really only care about one "sweet spot" seat, or if you care about getting nice, even, linear bass response across multiple seats. That will inform whether a lone subwoofer will be adequate, or whether multiple subs would be closer to ideal. And if multiple subs would be nicer, I'd also have to know whether you have the freedom to place two or more subwoofers in ideal locations, or whether you're limited in where you can place your subs, because multiple subs is not automatically better - it all depends on where they are placed and how they interact with each other and the room!

So lots to consider. But looking at the gear you already have, I would definitely say that your current subwoofer is the weakest link and the thing that I would personally want to upgrade the most. A pair of Rythmik FV12 subwoofers would run $1000, but there's shipping on top of that at around $60 per subwoofer, so an additional $120 at least in shipping to consider. That's purely an example though. I don't know if the FV12 subwoofers would be the right choice for your room, setup options and taste!

$1000 certainly gives you options for some very good subwoofers. Get back to us with more details about your room, your setup options (ie. how free you are to move things around and maybe place multiple subwoofers in ideal locations) and what's most important to you when it comes to bass performance (ie. extension, accuracy, loudness, even sound across multiple seats, etc.). Once we know more details, we can make better, more specific recommendations :)
 
A

avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
Just one man's opinion, but I'd take pretty much your whole budget and spend it on a new, great subwoofer. IMO, that's the biggest upgrade you could make to your current setup without spending significantly more.

I don't know your room size though, or if it has openings to other rooms. Nor do I know whether you mostly care about music or movies, or what type of music - basically whether you would prefer hitting the really deep 20Hz stuff with as much force as possible, or whether top notch accuracy and performance above 30Hz is more of a concern.

Then there's question of whether you really only care about one "sweet spot" seat, or if you care about getting nice, even, linear bass response across multiple seats. That will inform whether a lone subwoofer will be adequate, or whether multiple subs would be closer to ideal. And if multiple subs would be nicer, I'd also have to know whether you have the freedom to place two or more subwoofers in ideal locations, or whether you're limited in where you can place your subs, because multiple subs is not automatically better - it all depends on where they are placed and how they interact with each other and the room!

So lots to consider. But looking at the gear you already have, I would definitely say that your current subwoofer is the weakest link and the thing that I would personally want to upgrade the most. A pair of Rythmik FV12 subwoofers would run $1000, but there's shipping on top of that at around $60 per subwoofer, so an additional $120 at least in shipping to consider. That's purely an example though. I don't know if the FV12 subwoofers would be the right choice for your room, setup options and taste!

$1000 certainly gives you options for some very good subwoofers. Get back to us with more details about your room, your setup options (ie. how free you are to move things around and maybe place multiple subwoofers in ideal locations) and what's most important to you when it comes to bass performance (ie. extension, accuracy, loudness, even sound across multiple seats, etc.). Once we know more details, we can make better, more specific recommendations :)
Wow, first thanks for the great reply.

Lets see, as for as room size its about 15X15 and only three walls. It opens up into the living room. Its only a 1100 SqFt house. I'm a movie buff just as much as music. I would say they are equally played in my house. Mostly rock and action movies for me.

I'd say I have a sweet spot that I sit in and that's the primary spot. Ill put the sub(s) wherever I can. I've already read the article on "crawling for bass" and I can assure you that's what I have done.

One pet peeve I have on my current subwoofer is when its turned up moderately loud the grill rattles like no other. That's one thing I cant stand.

Then last but not least, I have a two year old daughter that sleeps about 30 feet away but shes a heavy sleeper and always enjoys a good Disney movie which pretty much means that I have to enjoy a good Disney movie also.

Thanks for all the great input.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Sub is a good idea, OP sub is really on the weak side, however his mains are also something needs upgrading as well...

My suggestion based your room, current speakers and usage is to replace front 3 speakers and a sub
Two of these:
Infinity Primus P162 (Black grille) Single bookshelf speaker at Crutchfield.com
one of these:
Infinity PC350 (Black grille) Center channel speaker at Crutchfield.com
and Same FV12 sub FR suggestion - it's a steal at $500 + shipping
Rythmik FV12 - vented HT sub
And you'd still have a budget for stands

Now if towers is what really want - these are great (sold as each)
Infinity Primus P362 Single floor-standing speaker at Crutchfield.com
same center

total budget about $1160 - I'd go with the towers :D
If the budget is really tight you could go with open box:
Infinity Primus P362 Single floor-standing speaker at Crutchfield Outlet
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with the others that you should be looking at speakers (including subwoofer) instead of a new receiver. And I think what you should do may depend on whether you plan on spending more money in the future or not. If you are going to spend more money in the future, you might want to go ahead and spend it all on a subwoofer, and replace the main speakers at a future date, when you have a couple of thousand that you would like to spend. Or just replace the main speakers now, and upgrade the subwoofer later. In any case, I recommend that you think carefully about what you really want, and only buy things now that you think you will never need to upgrade, as it is wasteful of money to buy things that you are only going to want to replace in a year or two anyway. If you follow my advice, you will spend less to get a great system than if you keep doing little upgrades.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Cool. Thanks for replying with more info :)

First up, I do agree with BoardSys that upgrading your front 3 speakers would also be a big improvement. Speakers and subwoofers make, by far, the greatest difference in the sound you hear. So if you're wanting to upgrade, those are where you should focus your money first.

I would still focus on the subwoofer as the top priority though. If there's room left in the budget after getting a great sub to also upgrade your speakers, then that's great! But I would prioritize personally and focus on the subwoofer first and foremost. The Infinity speakers that BoredSys suggested are indeed quite good. But they are still inexpensive speakers. They hit above their price point, so they're a great value. But they're certainly not the last word in speaker sound quality or anything. My point is that you might want to save up a bit more and purchase speakers that are even better than the Infinity speakers when you upgrade your Polks. Totally up to you. But if you're generally happy with your Polk speakers for now, it's sort of a "you don't know what you're missing" situation, so it's just my opinion that I'd probably want to aim a little bit higher for a speaker upgrade. Maybe something like EMP Tek's speakers, which are at a very reasonable price point and absolutely gorgeous to look at. Great sound from EMP's RBH parent company ;)

Anyways, there's no disagreement when it comes to recommending that a new subwoofer would be a great way to upgrade your system! Trust me, compared to your Polk sub, a new subwoofer is going to make a very, very noticeable improvement :D

Since your theater area open completely into another adjacent room, you have to consider your theater room to be the entire space, not just the 15' x 15' theater area. A subwoofer doesn't "know" where your theater area ends and your living room area begins. It just "sees" the entire open space and tries to pressurize it and fill it with bass.

So in terms of just cubic footage that you need to pressurize, you're likely into "large" room territory - that would be anything over 3000 cubic feet, which you more than likely have with your theater area and adjoining living room. Since you mostly care about one, prime, "sweet spot" seat, you will probably be ok with just using one subwoofer. In a large room, the Rythmik FV12 that we've mentioned might have some trouble hitting loud, close-to-reference type levels. It's an excellent $500 sub, but there's only so much that a 12" driver and a 300 Watt amp can do! :) That said, it doesn't sound as though you really crank your movies and music to full 100dB + reference levels. But then again, you enjoy action movies and rock music, so some good output and deep extension is called for here.

I would say that a pair of FV12 at $1000 + shipping would almost certainly do well for you if you want to go the dual subwoofer route. Since you said that you have pretty good freedom to place your subwoofers where you like, you'd be able to take advantage of dual subs to get more even and linear frequency response throughout your entire room. Fewer big peaks and valleys is always a nice thing to have :)

I wouldn't go for any sub less expensive than the $500 Rythmik FV12 in your case. In my experience, the FV12 is a subwoofer that "moves the goal posts" for what a $500 sub can do. Below that, you're definitely into obvious compromise territory, where you're either giving up deep bass extension, or giving up tight transient response and accuracy. The FV12 is the least expensive subwoofer out there that really delivers nicely in both areas, which is why I end up recommending it so often.

THAT SAID - as I mentioned, the FV12 might not have enough sheer output for your room size. A pair of them would likely be fine, but if you want to go with a lone sub, I would recommend that you aim higher than the FV12. Going for something a little bit more expensive than the FV12 also gives you some small, but still noteable improvements in terms of extension and overall sound quality in addition to obviously more output. The FV12 is great and a really huge step up over anything beneath it. But that doesn't mean you can't do even better if you spend a bit more :D

One sub that I would strongly consider for your setup would be the SVSound PB12-NSD DSP box or PC12-NSD DSP cylinder. They're very close in price ($770 for the box; $750 for the cylinder) and those prices include shipping, so it's really just a matter of what form factor you prefer. The cylinder is great if you want to save on floor space. It's only about 16" in diameter, so it's really easy to place so long as you're ok with a tall, black tube :p The box version is pretty big. I should mention, with any of these subs that we recommend, make sure that you look at the dimensions and really understand how large they are! Compared to your PSW10 sub, these might look like monsters!

Anyways, at this $750-ish price point, the SVSound NSD subs dig right down to 20Hz with authority and should have no problem at all with your room size. What's great about both Rythmik's and SVSound's subs is that they're basically unbreakable. The excellent engineering that goes into both brands means that the best filters, compressors and processing are used to make sure that even if you crank the volume way up past where the subwoofers can actually go, the subs just keep it all under control, play as loudly as they can without distortion or damage, but never get into any sort of "danger" zone.

The other subs I would strongly consider would be the HSU Research VTF-3 MK4 and the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX. Again, these are physically large subs, so make sure you're aware of their dimensions. To be as honest as possible, the SVSound NSD subs can outdo these two when it comes to sheer, maximum really deep bass output. But it's not a huge margin. The NSD subs have just a tiny bit of overhang. I'm really splitting hairs here, but what I'm saying is that some subs do sound just a little bit "tighter" than the SVS NSD subs. The NSD subs are good, don't get me wrong. But there's a bit of room for improvement in the transient response. The HSU VTF-3 MK4 is a great sub for a large room for both music and movies. HSU's subs have a really nice sound quality to them when it comes to transient response and just the tightness and clarity of the bass. Dr. Hsu is also involved in the design of Outlaw's subs, so they're sort of "related" in that way. The LFM-1 EX is like a close cousin to the VTF-3 MK4. You can check out Audioholics' excellent review of the Outlaw LFM-1 EX to get a good idea of how it performs and expect something pretty close from the VTF-3 MK4, although the VTF-3 MK4 might even be a hair better ;)

That should about do it! To get something better than any of those subs, you have to go over your $1000 budget and the subs start to get physically huge too :p To be honest, I don't think you could go "wrong" with any of these subs. They'd all be an absolutely massive step up over your Polk PSW10 sub!

Hope that helps. And enjoy you big upgrade!
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
Sell your speakers and sub on ebay or craigslist. Put that money and the money you have on hand into a front pair of tower speakers. If you are saavy enough, put the money into used speakers from audiogon. For $1500 to $2000 you should be able to buy a pair of speakers that will last you til your daughter is in college.
A really good pair of tower speakers in 2.0 configuration will sound better than an economy 5.1 set up, imho.
Don't be in a hurry to buy stereo equiptment- take your time and buy the best you can get. If you can't afford it, wait until you can. Economy gear is fleeting- quality lasts and is worth waiting for.
 
A

avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
Cool. Thanks for replying with more info :)

First up, I do agree with BoardSys that upgrading your front 3 speakers would also be a big improvement. Speakers and subwoofers make, by far, the greatest difference in the sound you hear. So if you're wanting to upgrade, those are where you should focus your money first.

I would still focus on the subwoofer as the top priority though. If there's room left in the budget after getting a great sub to also upgrade your speakers, then that's great! But I would prioritize personally and focus on the subwoofer first and foremost. The Infinity speakers that BoredSys suggested are indeed quite good. But they are still inexpensive speakers. They hit above their price point, so they're a great value. But they're certainly not the last word in speaker sound quality or anything. My point is that you might want to save up a bit more and purchase speakers that are even better than the Infinity speakers when you upgrade your Polks. Totally up to you. But if you're generally happy with your Polk speakers for now, it's sort of a "you don't know what you're missing" situation, so it's just my opinion that I'd probably want to aim a little bit higher for a speaker upgrade. Maybe something like EMP Tek's speakers, which are at a very reasonable price point and absolutely gorgeous to look at. Great sound from EMP's RBH parent company ;)

Anyways, there's no disagreement when it comes to recommending that a new subwoofer would be a great way to upgrade your system! Trust me, compared to your Polk sub, a new subwoofer is going to make a very, very noticeable improvement :D

Since your theater area open completely into another adjacent room, you have to consider your theater room to be the entire space, not just the 15' x 15' theater area. A subwoofer doesn't "know" where your theater area ends and your living room area begins. It just "sees" the entire open space and tries to pressurize it and fill it with bass.

So in terms of just cubic footage that you need to pressurize, you're likely into "large" room territory - that would be anything over 3000 cubic feet, which you more than likely have with your theater area and adjoining living room. Since you mostly care about one, prime, "sweet spot" seat, you will probably be ok with just using one subwoofer. In a large room, the Rythmik FV12 that we've mentioned might have some trouble hitting loud, close-to-reference type levels. It's an excellent $500 sub, but there's only so much that a 12" driver and a 300 Watt amp can do! :) That said, it doesn't sound as though you really crank your movies and music to full 100dB + reference levels. But then again, you enjoy action movies and rock music, so some good output and deep extension is called for here.

I would say that a pair of FV12 at $1000 + shipping would almost certainly do well for you if you want to go the dual subwoofer route. Since you said that you have pretty good freedom to place your subwoofers where you like, you'd be able to take advantage of dual subs to get more even and linear frequency response throughout your entire room. Fewer big peaks and valleys is always a nice thing to have :)

I wouldn't go for any sub less expensive than the $500 Rythmik FV12 in your case. In my experience, the FV12 is a subwoofer that "moves the goal posts" for what a $500 sub can do. Below that, you're definitely into obvious compromise territory, where you're either giving up deep bass extension, or giving up tight transient response and accuracy. The FV12 is the least expensive subwoofer out there that really delivers nicely in both areas, which is why I end up recommending it so often.

THAT SAID - as I mentioned, the FV12 might not have enough sheer output for your room size. A pair of them would likely be fine, but if you want to go with a lone sub, I would recommend that you aim higher than the FV12. Going for something a little bit more expensive than the FV12 also gives you some small, but still noteable improvements in terms of extension and overall sound quality in addition to obviously more output. The FV12 is great and a really huge step up over anything beneath it. But that doesn't mean you can't do even better if you spend a bit more :D

One sub that I would strongly consider for your setup would be the SVSound PB12-NSD DSP box or PC12-NSD DSP cylinder. They're very close in price ($770 for the box; $750 for the cylinder) and those prices include shipping, so it's really just a matter of what form factor you prefer. The cylinder is great if you want to save on floor space. It's only about 16" in diameter, so it's really easy to place so long as you're ok with a tall, black tube :p The box version is pretty big. I should mention, with any of these subs that we recommend, make sure that you look at the dimensions and really understand how large they are! Compared to your PSW10 sub, these might look like monsters!

Anyways, at this $750-ish price point, the SVSound NSD subs dig right down to 20Hz with authority and should have no problem at all with your room size. What's great about both Rythmik's and SVSound's subs is that they're basically unbreakable. The excellent engineering that goes into both brands means that the best filters, compressors and processing are used to make sure that even if you crank the volume way up past where the subwoofers can actually go, the subs just keep it all under control, play as loudly as they can without distortion or damage, but never get into any sort of "danger" zone.

The other subs I would strongly consider would be the HSU Research VTF-3 MK4 and the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX. Again, these are physically large subs, so make sure you're aware of their dimensions. To be as honest as possible, the SVSound NSD subs can outdo these two when it comes to sheer, maximum really deep bass output. But it's not a huge margin. The NSD subs have just a tiny bit of overhang. I'm really splitting hairs here, but what I'm saying is that some subs do sound just a little bit "tighter" than the SVS NSD subs. The NSD subs are good, don't get me wrong. But there's a bit of room for improvement in the transient response. The HSU VTF-3 MK4 is a great sub for a large room for both music and movies. HSU's subs have a really nice sound quality to them when it comes to transient response and just the tightness and clarity of the bass. Dr. Hsu is also involved in the design of Outlaw's subs, so they're sort of "related" in that way. The LFM-1 EX is like a close cousin to the VTF-3 MK4. You can check out Audioholics' excellent review of the Outlaw LFM-1 EX to get a good idea of how it performs and expect something pretty close from the VTF-3 MK4, although the VTF-3 MK4 might even be a hair better ;)

That should about do it! To get something better than any of those subs, you have to go over your $1000 budget and the subs start to get physically huge too :p To be honest, I don't think you could go "wrong" with any of these subs. They'd all be an absolutely massive step up over your Polk PSW10 sub!

Hope that helps. And enjoy you big upgrade!
That helps out tremendously! I'm going to look into each one of those. The large size isn't an issue for me. I get the TV, audio, and the garage. My girlfriend gets the rest of the house. HAHA.

Anyways one sub I was looking at today that seems like its too good to be true is this one.

Newegg.com - Klipsch Reference RW-12d 12" Powered Subwoofer Each

I know Klipsch seems to always be pricey but in your guys opinions how would this compare to the above mentioned subs???
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
At the current clearance price on that Klipsch 12" sub, it's probably fine. At its regular listed price of almost $1000, it would be a total rip off!

Purely in terms of cabinet size, driver size and amp power, it's roughly on par with the Rythmik FV12. But once really obvious sign is the weight. The Klipsch is only 49 lbs while the Rythmik comes in at 80 lbs!

There are a couple of things that usually contribute to the weight - the cabinet and the magnet size on the driver. At only 50 lbs, it's a clear indication that the Klipsch uses either thinner cabinet walls, less bracing, a smaller magnet on the driver, or possibly all three.

Like I say, at its current clearance price, probably not bad at all. Compared to other $350 subs, it'll likely hold up well. But it's unlikely that it would compare well with any of the subs that I've recommended earlier. At its original $1000 price, there's nothing about the specs or design that would indicate it could hold a candle to competing $1000 subs. :)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I would actually replace all three front speakers and eventually the sub as well. The sub is definitely the weak point there, but a front upgrade would really make a huge difference in sound quality as well, and for $1K, you should be able to pull it off easily.

I really like BoredSysAdmin's recommendations as well and feel this would give you excellent bang for your bucks. I think the sub is a great recommendation but if your room isn't large, you might be able to save a little and step down the sub to something like the Emotiva X-Ref10.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I would actually replace all three front speakers and eventually the sub as well. The sub is definitely the weak point there, but a front upgrade would really make a huge difference in sound quality as well, and for $1K, you should be able to pull it off easily.

I really like BoredSysAdmin's recommendations as well and feel this would give you excellent bang for your bucks. I think the sub is a great recommendation but if your room isn't large, you might be able to save a little and step down the sub to something like the Emotiva X-Ref10.
Thanks for vote of confidence :D
OP has room size 15x15 which is open to other room - x-ref 10 would really struggle to pressurize this space. Besides above mentioned subs by me and other veteran audioholics - there is only one brand I could throw in the mix:
Elemental Design - they represent good value and very high quality products:
Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics
They offer free shipping (conus) so the final price is almost same as Rythmic FV12 sub...
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Square room is unfortunate. I'd say most subs are going to struggle to give great coverage in there. Open to another room, meaning by doors or it is completely open? What is the total space roughly. Maybe an Outlaw sub would be in order LFM1 Plus or EX? EX was AH rated for large room duty.
 
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A

avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
At the current clearance price on that Klipsch 12" sub, it's probably fine. At its regular listed price of almost $1000, it would be a total rip off!

Purely in terms of cabinet size, driver size and amp power, it's roughly on par with the Rythmik FV12. But once really obvious sign is the weight. The Klipsch is only 49 lbs while the Rythmik comes in at 80 lbs!

There are a couple of things that usually contribute to the weight - the cabinet and the magnet size on the driver. At only 50 lbs, it's a clear indication that the Klipsch uses either thinner cabinet walls, less bracing, a smaller magnet on the driver, or possibly all three.

Like I say, at its current clearance price, probably not bad at all. Compared to other $350 subs, it'll likely hold up well. But it's unlikely that it would compare well with any of the subs that I've recommended earlier. At its original $1000 price, there's nothing about the specs or design that would indicate it could hold a candle to competing $1000 subs. :)
Gosh, thanks for all the great info. Ill update when I get one. As it gets closer to purchasing Ill probably post again to get some opinions on my decision.
 
A

avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
Square room is unfortunate. I'd say most subs are going to struggle to give great coverage in there. Open to another room, meaning by doors or it is completely open? What is the total space roughly. Maybe an Outlaw sub would be in order LFM1 Plus or EX? EX was AH rated for large room duty.
It opens completely to another room so there is only 3 walls. I would say the total size is about 15X30.
 
A

avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
Sub is a good idea, OP sub is really on the weak side, however his mains are also something needs upgrading as well...

My suggestion based your room, current speakers and usage is to replace front 3 speakers and a sub
Two of these:
Infinity Primus P162 (Black grille) Single bookshelf speaker at Crutchfield.com
one of these:
Infinity PC350 (Black grille) Center channel speaker at Crutchfield.com
and Same FV12 sub FR suggestion - it's a steal at $500 + shipping
Rythmik FV12 - vented HT sub
And you'd still have a budget for stands

Now if towers is what really want - these are great (sold as each)
Infinity Primus P362 Single floor-standing speaker at Crutchfield.com
same center

total budget about $1160 - I'd go with the towers :D
If the budget is really tight you could go with open box:
Infinity Primus P362 Single floor-standing speaker at Crutchfield Outlet
I seem to see these speakers come up quite often, like more often then any other. I have Infinitys in my Xterra and I love them. My question with these is are they just good entry level speakers or whats the deal? Compared price wise with my Polks they seem to be about equivalent. I found the P362 at Fry's for $150 each.

Question 2 is would I notice a great difference between the P362 and my Polk fronts?

Then my last question is, no one ever seems to have good things to say about Polk Audio. I noticed on the survey of the greatest speakers Polk Audio looks like its in last place. Is this do to build quality and price point? Or is it that they just aren't good speakers period.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
They're just good entry level speakers. I haven't heard the Primus series, but I have heard a number of lower-end Infinity speakers and they're good. Probably a bit better than the Polks, but you probably won't be blown away by the difference the way you would be if you moved to, say, Ascend 340s.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
They're just good entry level speakers. I haven't heard the Primus series, but I have heard a number of lower-end Infinity speakers and they're good. Probably a bit better than the Polks, but you probably won't be blown away by the difference the way you would be if you moved to, say, Ascend 340s.
I haven't heard the 340s, but I would be surprised if they performed as well as some Primus p362s. At the Primuses price point, I can't think of another speaker I would rather have. The CBM170s would be lucky to sound as good as the p162s, and the p162s are half the cost. And the c350 center is easily the best center speaker you can get for $200.
 

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