I have roughly $1000 to spend on upgrades.

j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I haven't heard the 340s, but I would be surprised if they performed as well as some Primus p362s. At the Primuses price point, I can't think of another speaker I would rather have. The CBM170s would be lucky to sound as good as the p162s, and the p162s are half the cost. And the c350 center is easily the best center speaker you can get for $200.
Since you haven't heard them, I'd say that is a big mistake of an assumption. The Primus line is very good, but the Ascends ARE better; however they do cost a bit more. The 170s were some of the original Giant Killers - they had no business being that good for the price the original 170s were going for (around $240/pr). They just aren't winning any beauty contests.

The other two speakers that I can think of at that price point of $200 would be the Behringer 2030p and the Cambridge S30.
 
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avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for vote of confidence :D
OP has room size 15x15 which is open to other room - x-ref 10 would really struggle to pressurize this space. Besides above mentioned subs by me and other veteran audioholics - there is only one brand I could throw in the mix:
Elemental Design - they represent good value and very high quality products:
Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics
They offer free shipping (conus) so the final price is almost same as Rythmic FV12 sub...
Elemental Design has peaked my interest. The prices seam amazing and the quality looks impressive. Does anyone have these or the sub mentioned above?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Since you haven't heard them, I'd say that is a big mistake of an assumption. The Primus line is very good, but the Ascends ARE better; however they do cost a bit more. The 170s were some of the original Giant Killers - they had no business being that good for the price the original 170s were going for (around $240/pr). They just aren't winning any beauty contests.

The other two speakers that I can think of at that price point of $200 would be the Behringer 2030p and the Cambridge S30.
I don't know how much experience you have with the Ascends and the Primus, but unless you have heard them both in the same conditions and AB'd them in the same room with the same material, you don't have a proper comparison. I have done that with a bunch of speakers against the P362, including the Hsu HB-1s, HC-1s, Behringer 2031ps, Primus p162s, some Alesis studio monitors, some KLH bookshelfs, and, while they were all pretty good (well the KLH were not great), if I could only keep on pair between them, I would go for the Primus p362 speakers. The Primus line is famous for the amount of R&D that went into them, and I doubt that Ascend had the facilities, equipment, and wide range of expertise that Harman had on hand in designing their speakers.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
No, I didn't hear them in the same setups, but I have heard each on multiple occasions and have a good idea of what they sound like (162s). Comparing a TOWER to a bunch of bookshelf speakers doesn't really tell me much either.

Sorry, but having all the facilities and equipment in the world really doesn't give one company an advantage over another when it comes to speakers :rolleyes: I actually laughed out loud when I read that. Harman is a big company. Small companies have different advantages that easily offset "expertise" compared to a large company that is designing something to hit a price point, has a ton of overhead, distributors/vendors, etc... Nobody is saying the Primus line isn't a solid speaker, but they aren't god's gift to man either.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Ok, you were comparing the Ascends to the p162s. The p162s sound good, but the p362s do sound better.

As for facilities and equipment not giving speaker company A an advantage over speaker company B, well of course it does. However, that doesn't mean company A is making better speakers, after all, Bose must have some pretty good equipment and maybe even an anechoic chamber, but obviously they are not producing great stuff. But when you have guys like Floyd Toole and Sean Olive working for you, you are bound to make some quality stuff if you care to. And while Harman is a big company, they clearly do not share the same audio philosophy as Bose.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
We are getting way off topic here, but what I was getting at is there are some AMAZING speakers coming from the Internet Direct companies, which is why those like GR Research, Ascend, SVS, HSU, Salk, etc... are around. They make truly great stuff, and none of them are large corporations, so all I am saying is that they don't need to be big to make speakers to drool over :)

It opens completely to another room so there is only 3 walls. I would say the total size is about 15X30.
Completely missed this. So when you are talking about sound, it doesn't matter how big the space you've allocated is, it matters how big the entire room that needs to be filled is, and 15x30 is actually better than 15x15 in terms of bass, even though it is a larger room. Based on that, I'd be looking at something like the LFM1-EX
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Elemental Design has peaked my interest. The prices seam amazing and the quality looks impressive. Does anyone have these or the sub mentioned above?
Elemental Designs' subwoofers - at least in the lower price ranges - do quite well in terms of extension and output, but not so great in terms of tight transient response. They are one side of the compromise that I was talking about. I would put HSU's less expensive subs on the opposite side, where they have nice, tight transient response, but give up just a little bit in terms of the deepest extension and output down there.

It's a similar case with Epik and Rythmik, where Epik's subs tend to hit lower and louder, but with a little bit less control, while Rythmik's subs are as tight and accurate as can be, but don't necessarily hit the lowest notes with the same high output.

Once you get to around $1000, everybody's subs start to sound pretty darn good in almost all areas ;)

eD started as a car audio company, and you can sort of tell by the way their subs sound. They're all about massive output - really tactile "thump, thump, thump" bass that a lot of people love for action movies or dance music. But you do give up something in the way of subtlety and the finer details in music and movies. It's a perfectly reasonable compromise. Different people want different things sometimes!

Personally, I always favor tighter transient response. I like to hear separation and deliniation between notes. I hate it when bass "smears". So I tend to favor Rythmik's subs and HSU's subs and SVSound's Plus and Ultra models. I was disappointed when I got a pair of Epik Sentinel (now discontinued) subs because they had noticeable overhang, where notes did not stop as quickly as the signal was telling them to. For music, it made the bass "smear". And even in movies, it turned things like The Matrix' lobby shootout scene into a bit of a mess as the bass would just rumble and boom instead of having tight, clean articulation.

But even with my disappointment in those particular subs, I could see how other people might really love them! The Epik Sentinel subs hit low and had great attack. I literally heard and felt certain deep bass notes and sounds that just didn't come through with my HSU VTF-3 MK2, which the Sentinels were meant to replace. For people who just wanted to get that really deep bass and chest thumping impact, I think they would love the Epik design choices. But for me, I was used to the HSU's level of delineation and articulate bass. And while the HSU VTF-3 MK2 couldn't match the Epik Sentinels' deep bass output, giving up the quality of the rest of the bass just wasn't something I could tolerate.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If you can try the Infinity P362 @ home & compare them to the Polk, that would be best. Return them if you don't like the results. No guess work.

Are the Ascend truly better than Infinity? For some, sure. For everyone? I doubt it.

Does Ascend have the 30 day return policy like Crutchfield & Amazon?
 
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tdercole

Audiophyte
I own Ascend Sierras and a rythmik fv12. I have heard those infinity towers before and the klipsch sub. The infinitys did sound clear and had decent bass but lacked detail and accuracy. Hands down my sierras lay to rest those infinitys, the advantage of direct servo subwoofer is key to bass accuracy. Once you go Ascend you wont go back.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
So I've been doing tons of research and reading all sorts or reviews. Right now I'm just going to upgrade the sub.

Here are my choices I'm looking at



HSU VTF-2 MK4 Subwoofer

Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics

Rythmik FV12 - vented HT sub


I'm honestly stuck between the three. I find great reviews on all of them. So I would like to know every ones opinion.
I think if you reread suggestions already given you on this thread and other FirstReflection's comments on subwoofer forums you should have good understanding what each sub brings to the table.

Bottom line is $500-600 for sub = means there will be compromises. You have to choose which one to give up.

One point to notice: I'd replace vtf-2-mk4 for it's a bit more powerful twin bother Outlaw audio LFM-1 Plus

So:
Outlaw/HSU - good musical and ht sub, but lacks very low extension
Rythmic - extremely precise, but lower model's - aka fv12 lack the punch needed to fill large space
eD - Punchy and powerful, Have very good low extension, but lacks in terms of tight transient response
 
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avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
I think if you reread suggestions already given you on this thread and other FirstReflection's comments on subwoofer forums you should have good understanding what each sub brings to the table.

Bottom line is $500-600 for sub = means there will be compromises. You have to choose which one to give up.

One point to notice: I'd replace vtf-2-mk4 for it's a bit more powerful twin bother Outlaw audio LFM-1 Plus

So:
Outlaw/HSU - good musical and ht sub, but lacks very low extension
Rythmic - extremely precise, but lower model's - aka fv12 lack the punch needed to fill large space
eD - Punchy and powerful, Have very good low extension, but lacks in terms of tight transient response
Well I thank you for your thoughts.

What would you purchase?
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
If you really want to stick to that $550-ish price point, given your room size (talking about the full, open space, not just the "theater area"), I'd have to go with the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus at $549. It is all but identical to the old VTF-3 MK2 (just a different port location). It's a clean, tight sounding sub that plays very nicely down to 25Hz with very decent output. Personally, I have to say that I would honestly prefer a sub that's even a bit more powerful, extended and capable for your room size, but you would have to spend more money - no way around it, I'm afraid :eek:

The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus though is a pretty tremendous value. So long as you're not trying to hit reference volumes and not trying to blast out 20Hz tones, I think you'll be very pleased with that sub :)
 
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avdoubleu

Audioholic Intern
I want to thank everyone for their input I truly appreciate it. For those of you who care to know this is what I'd doing for right now

2, Infinity Primus P363, one open box and one new and an Infinity PC350 open box for a total of $560 from Crutchfield.

Then the infamous Rythmik FV12 for $550.

Anyone know of these used for cheaper??? HAHAHA.

Ill add a couple of bookshelfs later on in life. Hey maybe even four so I can finally use the 7.1

Cheers and Merry Xmas.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Congrats!

I can certainly get behind that choice! :D

My favorite $500-$550 sub overall. Very clean, articulate and tight for this price range - that's the main thing. Very nice delineation of notes. No "bleeding" of one bass note into another - which is something that really bugs me when I hear it :p

Good extension to just below 25Hz - certainly all you need for the vast majority of music and low enough that you're barely ever missing anything with movies.

And while it can't play at reference volume in a large room, you CAN crank it as much as you please. The great engineering will simply have the FV12 play as loud as it is safely able to do so, and no louder! A very "safe" sub in that way, that will never give you any operational problems. And a very good amp that runs cool and quiet :)

I think you'll be very pleased with it! Do be sure to take your time and set it up properly though. You've got a good enough piece of gear now that it's only fitting to set it up so that it is performing to its maximum potential!

And if you discover that the FV12 cannot play quite as loud as you need/want - just realize that there isn't a whole lot more output to be had for the same price. Hopefully, the FV12's output will be enough for your room size and tastes. But if it isn't, take solace in the fact that you'd basically have to almost double the price anyway in order to get significantly louder. As I said, the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus at $550 can play a little bit louder than the FV12, but that's only at the extremes of output capability and only at a portion of the frequency range - not the entire frequency range and not with linear response.

Anywho, don't be afraid to crank that FV12 up! It'll keep itself under control, so you can be liberal with the volume dial and max out its volume if your room and tastes call for it :D
 
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