Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are right that they wouldn't compare to the SoundScape 12. You just got the order wrong. The SoundScape 12 is in a different league. Of course to judge you would have to have them both in the same system and properly set up. Since personal preferences are involved there would be some who might not choose the SS12.

Bob

We all have our opinions.

But personally until the SS12 gets reviewed and measured by Soundstage/NRC, Stereophile, Home Theater Magazine, Audioholic, etc., there's not much to say.

But to think that most people would pay $16K for the SS12, instead of $14K for the Salon2 is naive IMO.

I'm not saying the Salon2 and other speakers sound any BETTER than the Soundscape. But to think that the Soundscape sounds better than all the other speakers like the Salon2, Orion, KEF 207/2 is also naive IMO.

 

[frsimms]

We all have our opinions.

But personally until the SS12 gets reviewed and measured by Soundstage/NRC, Stereophile, Home Theater Magazine, Audioholic, etc., there's not much to say.

But to think that most people would pay $16K for the SS12, instead of $14K for the Salon2 is naive IMO.

I'm not saying the Salon2 and other speakers sound any BETTER than the Soundscape. But to think that the Soundscape sounds better than all the other speakers like the Salon2, Orion, KEF 207/2 is also naive IMO.

Bass response - SS12 wins
Transparency - SS12 wins
Smooth Frequency Response – SS12 wins
Imaging – SS12 wins
Dispersion – SS12 wins
Ambiance - SS12 wins, but Orion can compete
Macro and Micro Dynamics – I don’t know

Of course some of the people might like the colorations of the other speakers better than the SS12's transparency. Also others might like the styling of one of the others.

My naivety is based on having SS10s for over a year, published reviews and three trips to the RMAF.

Bob

 

[GranteedEV]

I know I was there once but he would have to cut down on his fine ales or spirits for a few weeks to afford to get these. For his young ears I think it would be a good sacrifice.

I haven't had $700 in my bank account in over a year... and these "young ears" can't even hear 15khz AFAICT
On the bright side, those RAALs are actually cheaper than the TAD 2002 tweeters I also want

Dispersion – SS12 wins

Based on design alone, i'd expect the KEFs to win this one; at least in terms of evenness into all directions.

 

[frsimms]

I haven't had $700 in my bank account in over a year... and these "young ears" can't even hear 15khz AFAICT
On the bright side, those RAALs are actually cheaper than the TAD 2002 tweeters I also want

Based on design alone, i'd expect the KEFs to win this one; at least in terms of evenness into all directions.

The Kef is truly outstanding in this area, but based on the published Stereophile graphs the SS12 is even much better. Perhaps Dennis could post dispersion curves for the SS12. The tonal character of my SS10s are almost the same when I walk to the side of the room.

Bob

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Of course some of the people might like the colorations of the other speakers better than the SS12's transparency.

Wow. I didn't realize the Salon2, 207/2, & Orion have colorations in sound.

The Salon2 was named Speaker of the year by both Soundstage/NRC & Stereophile.

The 207/2 was named speaker of the year by Stereophile.

Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic consider the Orion one of the best speakers in the world.

It is because they all have colorations, but the Soundscape is absolutely perfectly transparent.

All I can say is R---------I-----------G------------H-------------T

 

[GranteedEV]

The Kef is truly outstanding in this area, but based on the published Stereophile graphs the SS12 is even much better. Perhaps Dennis could post dispersion curves for the SS12. The tonal character of my SS10s are almost the same when I walk to the side of the room.

It's not physically possible for a speaker with such vertical driver alignment and a such crossover to match a dual concentric in vertical dispersion. Whether it's a big deal is a different question.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Kef is truly outstanding in this area, but based on the published Stereophile graphs the SS12 is even much better. Perhaps Dennis could post dispersion curves for the SS12. The tonal character of my SS10s are almost the same when I walk to the side of the room.

Bob

I didn't realize Stereophile measured both the Soundscape & KEF so that we could compare apples to apples.

 

[GranteedEV]

On an additional note, while the passive radiators probably do extend the bass deeper / more output near tuning, I want to point out that the Salon 2s have the bass radiating surface area of a 14" driver, so I find it hard to believe your SS10s outdo them in bass response for most of the audible band. The SS12s maybe... but those wouldn't be the ones you own.

 

[frsimms]

Actually Dennis, you don’t need to post the SS12 curves. You have the Philharmonic dispersion curves posted on your website. They are good enough to illustrate the point.

Wow. I didn't realize the Salon2, 207/2, & Orion have colorations in sound.

The Salon2 was named Speaker of the year by both Soundstage/NRC & Stereophile.

The 207/2 was named speaker of the year by Stereophile.

Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic consider the Orion one of the best speakers in the world.

It is because they all have colorations, but the Soundscape is absolutely perfectly transparent.

All I can say is R---------I-----------G------------H-------------T

I never meant to say that the SS12s are 100% transparent or that they were free from colorations. They are just much less than the others. Actually, I think the $50k Vandersteen 7 speakers have less coloration than the SS12s.

Bob

 

[GranteedEV]

Actually Dennis, you don’t need to post the SS12 curves. You have the Philharmonic dispersion curves posted on your website. They are good enough to illustrate the point.

I'm not trying to criticize Dennis here, and this thread is starting to get off topic, but there's a reason there aren't any vertical graphs of the philharmonics on the website.

Since you pointed out the KEFs' stereophile measurements, go take a look at their vertical dispersion:

Those are the floor/ceiling reflections you hear if you don't aggressively absorb them Now go take a look at the vertical dispersion of virtually any speaker that isn't a coaxial. Here, the Vandersteen 2Ce just as one example:

or as an example of a speaker with 4th order crossovers near 2khz, the Salon2:

So all I can say is... it's naive to jump to conclusions based on our biases.

 

[frsimms]

Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic consider the Orion one of the best speakers in the world.

Edit: I think Dennis would probably agree with Peter Aczel that the Orions were one of the best speakers in the world. As I understand it that was one of Dennis’s main reasons to design the Philharmonics. He wanted one to compete with the Orion.

Bob

 

[frsimms]

It's not physically possible for a speaker with such vertical driver alignment and a such crossover to match a dual concentric in vertical dispersion. Whether it's a big deal is a different question.

Agreed!

Bob

 

[frsimms]

On an additional note, while the passive radiators probably do extend the bass deeper / more output near tuning, I want to point out that the Salon 2s have the bass radiating surface area of a 14" driver, so I find it hard to believe your SS10s outdo them in bass response for most of the audible band. The SS12s maybe... but those wouldn't be the ones you own.

I was talking about the 12s. With my 10s you have a good argument. With the bigger radiating area of the driving speaker of the Salon 2s your argument certainly has some merit.

Bob

 

[Nuance AH]

Well, we each have our own opinion, and I disagree with GranteedEV on this.

I bet if we asked all the guys on AH if they would buy the Soundscape 12 for $16K or the Salon2 for $14K brand new, most guys would pick the Salon2. That's my opinion.

I'm sure the SS12 sounds great, but I seriously doubt it sounds better than the Orion, Salon2, Studio2(which you can get brand new for $10K) , or KEF 207/2 (which you can get brand new for $12K).

I think the SoundScapes are better, and I heard all of those speakers the same day. Just my opinion.

Edit: I should mention they were the SoundScape 12's. I think my top 5 list would be:

Vandersteen 5A/Model 7
Dynaudio C4 Mark II
Salk SoundScape 12
Linkwitz Orion (the room actually hurt their performance a little, though)
Revel Ultima Salon 2

And my my overrated speaker would be...well, anything Wilson.

 

[Solid-State]

Well, we each have our own opinion, and I disagree with GranteedEV on this.

I bet if we asked all the guys on AH if they would buy the Soundscape 12 for $16K or the Salon2 for $14K brand new, most guys would pick the Salon2. That's my opinion.

I'm sure the SS12 sounds great, but I seriously doubt it sounds better than the Orion, Salon2, Studio2(which you can get brand new for $10K) , or KEF 207/2 (which you can get brand new for $12K).

Those speakers are so expensive and most could never afford to spend that kinda of money including me. The most expensive speaker from Philharmonic Audio Loudspeakers is $3k. That's a base price and I'm sure custom cabs would add to that. It's design is similar do the Soundscape in that it has a QWT Transmission line low end with an open backed separate high/mid section. All drivers are different than the Soundscape but the cab speaker design is similar. The only concern I have with the Phils is the BG midrange. On the spec sheet the Neo8 really drops from 2k to 640 rather drastically. I'm curious how this has been compensated in the xover design. I read on some DIY sites people have had issues crossing them over so low and it lead to driver failure. I'm seriously considering purchasing them but I do have concern they will be "dynamic" enough for me listening to movies and rock music etc. I don't think I even need it's low frequency performance as I have a sub. The concern is midrange "dynamics". My other choice is the Sierra Tower. My concern with it is low frequencies. It's only using a 5 1/4" midwoofer x2. I sure wish Dave had used a larger driver at about 7" like the RS180 instead of using the same 5 1/4" from the Sierra bookshelf. I'm sure the Seas midrange is fantastic though!

TOUGH DECISIONS

 

[GranteedEV]

And my my overrated speaker would be...well, anything Wilson.

You just missed the sweet spot by a hair

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Those speakers are so expensive and most could never afford to spend that kinda of money including me. The most expensive speaker from Philharmonic Audio Loudspeakers is $3k. That's a base price and I'm sure custom cabs would add to that. It's design is similar do the Soundscape in that it has a QWT Transmission line low end with an open backed separate high/mid section. All drivers are different than the Soundscape but the cab speaker design is similar. The only concern I have with the Phils is the BG midrange. On the spec sheet the Neo8 really drops from 2k to 640 rather drastically. I'm curious how this has been compensated in the xover design. I read on some DIY sites people have had issues crossing them over so low and it lead to driver failure. I'm seriously considering purchasing them but I do have concern they will be "dynamic" enough for me listening to movies and rock music etc. I don't think I even need it's low frequency performance as I have a sub. The concern is midrange "dynamics".....

A couple of points. First, the Soundscapes don't use a transmission line loading--they use two 12" passive radiators (with excellent results--they're flat down to 19 Hz). Second, I'm not sure what Neo 8 measurements you're looking at, but they're probably factory plots made with no baffle. I've attached the response of the Neo 8 running free in the Philharmonic 3 upper cabinet measured on the tweeter axis. It's very flat down to 500 Hz and up to 7 kHz. My lower crossover point of 650 Hz is well within its comfortable operating range, particularly since the crossover slope is very steep. If you don't like the Phil's, it won't be because of any lack of midrange dynamics.

 

[Nuance AH]

You just missed the sweet spot by a hair

LoL, too funny!

 

[Solid-State]

A couple of points. First, the Soundscapes don't use a transmission line loading--they use two 12" passive radiators (with excellent results--they're flat down to 19 Hz). Second, I'm not sure what Neo 8 measurements you're looking at, but they're probably factory plots made with no baffle. I've attached the response of the Neo 8 running free in the Philharmonic 3 upper cabinet measured on the tweeter axis. It's very flat down to 500 Hz and up to 7 kHz. My lower crossover point of 650 Hz is well within its comfortable operating range, particularly since the crossover slope is very steep. If you don't like the Phil's, it won't be because of any lack of midrange dynamics.

Thanks for correcting me on the Soundscape design. I'm now most certain I will LOVE the Phil's. It will be for a multi channel system and I'm curious what your opinion is using it with Ascend Sierra Center. I know it's yet to be released but I can get it with Raal 70-20XR and it should timbre match well. This is my layman assumption. I would sure value your opinion and possible options Dennis for a matching center.

I'm also curious if the speakers ship out of the Seattle area as I live very close and might be able to even pick them up when they are available.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Thanks for correcting me on the Soundscape design. I'm now most certain I will LOVE the Phil's. It will be for a multi channel system and I'm curious what your opinion is using it with Ascend Sierra Center. I know it's yet to be released but I can get it with Raal 70-20XR and it should timbre match well. This is my layman assumption. I would sure value your opinion and possible options Dennis for a matching center.

I'm also curious if the speakers ship out of the Seattle area as I live very close and might be able to even pick them up when they are available.

Hi Well, I'm very near the Washington area, but it's Washington D.C., not Washington State. Missed by THAAAAAAAAAT much. I didn't realize Ascend was releasing a center channel with the RAAL. Is it an MTM? Any price on it yet? It might be a good match, but I would really have to hear it. Does your center have to be a low-profile MTM-type cabinet? A conventional MT won't fit your setup? I sort of have an MTM center, but it uses the Fountek, and the cabinets won't be ready for awhile. All I would have now is the the Monitor I or Monitor II, both MT's, and both using the Fountek.