Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[Dennis Murphy]

Dennis Murphy,

Do you know Tom Gates from Calgary, AB, Canada? He has been designing speakers for 50 years, and I was fortunate enough to speak with him the other day.

He said w/all his years of designing/building/testing, he came to the conclusion that the best designs were TWO WAY, w/o a woofer in the enclosure, and a two encl. solution -- basically one box on top of the other - isolated from each other, with the Tweeters as close together as possible in the center and the Mid-Range drivers at top and bottom of the twin stack, if that makes sense. Basically, two tweets and two mids per side!

Knowing you Dennis and how specific and particular you are, I am sure you have seen/heard and/or tested that design already, and threw it out for some reasons.

Can you quickly explain, either way, as I have No Idea.

Dennis

I've never tried two tweeters, although the 2-mid configuration is just the popular MTM design, of which I've done many. But never an mttm. I would be afraid of comb filtering from the two tweets, though I assume that's why he places them as close together as he can.

 

[DenPureSound]

I've never tried two tweeters, although the 2-mid configuration is just the popular MTM design, of which I've done many. But never an mttm. I would be afraid of comb filtering from the two tweets, though I assume that's why he places them as close together as he can.

DM, have you ever used the SEAS from Norway Woofers, looks like they don't even come close to the ScanSpeak Revelators? Cost is a lot less more in line with the SB Acoustics Woofers, so it seems to me.

Was just curious what you thought of the iDunn SEAS bookshelves at:

Idunn

Being Norwegian, an Named after Idunn, a Norse Goddess of youth.

Maybe that is their Babies,

 

[Dennis Murphy]

DM, have you ever used the SEAS from Norway Woofers, looks like they don't even come close to the ScanSpeak Revelators? Cost is a lot less more in line with the SB Acoustics Woofers, so it seems to me.

Was just curious what you thought of the iDunn SEAS bookshelves at:

Idunn

Being Norwegian, an Named after Idunn, a Norse Goddess of youth.

Maybe that is their Babies,

I've used Seas woofers in a bajillion designs, and think very highly of them.
I've used them almost exclusively in the Salk speakers. They don't happen to make an 8" driver that equals the SB acoustics driver I'm using in the Phil 1 and 2, but other than that they're my woofers of choice. The W18 Excel magnesium is superb. I have a monitor using the cheaper but still excellent ER18 woofer and the Fountek tweeter. The Scan Revelator 7" is also outstanding, but I have a slight preference for the Excels in the 7" field. But the 8" Revelator runs circles around the 8" Excel in bass extension.

 

[GranteedEV]

The Scan Revelator 7" is also outstanding, but I have a slight preference for the Excels in the 7" field.

Got me curious too now..

Ever use the Illuminator 18wu?

I was looking at the klippel tests for it and the linearity just blew my brains away. But I'm still skeptical of soft cone materials at those prices, whether that's valid or not - And on that note, does the Nextel cone Excel lack resolution compared to the magnesium cone?

 

[dkane360]

I have a monitor using the cheaper but still excellent ER18 woofer and the Fountek tweeter.

Sorry, off topic, but is the xover completed?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Sorry, off topic, but is the xover completed?

Hi Yes, and I've already shipped a pair. They use either the Parts Express
.5 cu ft cabinet or the .75 cabinet for deeper bass. The price ranges from about $800 - $900 a pair depending on cabinet size.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Got me curious too now..

Ever use the Illuminator 18wu?

I was looking at the klippel tests for it and the linearity just blew my brains away. But I'm still skeptical of soft cone materials at those prices, whether that's valid or not - And on that note, does the Nextel cone Excel lack resolution compared to the magnesium cone?

I've used the 5" illuminator in a little monitor with the RAAL tweet, and I've tested out the 18. I don't really get them. First, sensitivity is very low, and yet they don't go as deep as the revelators. Second, they're not nearly as smooth at the upper end, although I can deal with that in the crossover. I think you're paying for all of that fancy machining on the chassis, which you can't see unless you use a plexiglass cabinet. I'm not sure I could hear any difference between the W18 mag and the Nextel once the crossover was implemented. But I didn't do a proper blinded and controlled A-B test.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hi Yes, and I've already shipped a pair. They use either the Parts Express
.5 cu ft cabinet or the .75 cabinet for deeper bass. The price ranges from about $800 - $900 a pair depending on cabinet size.

Dennis, is this the "Philharmonic Bookshelf Speaker" ?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Dennis, is this the "Philharmonic Bookshelf Speaker" ?

Pretty much. The dude who bought these is in the middle of a remodeling project and hasn't had a chance to play them. I would be interested in some feedback. I really like them, although I think they need the larger cabinet if used alone without a sub, so they're not cheap.

 

[smwick]

Hello everyone, I thought I would sign up here and give my initial thoughts on the Philharmonic 3, as there has been a lot of interest here. I just received them about 5 days ago. Here is what I had posted on AudioCircle.

I would like to give my initial thoughts on these speakers. I have been listening to them for about four days now and I think they are starting to settle in a bit. Lets start with the bottom end, and who doesn't love a great bottom end, sorry back to the speakers. Bass out of these speakers is very tight with quick transient response and good presence. I really can't believe how quick they are for an 8" driver, they are actually faster than my Totem Sttaf speakers with a 5" driver. They also reach down very deep. I don't know how deep in my room, maybe I should get a radio shack spl meter and see what my room is doing. Anyway, the bottom end is deep, tuneful and tight. The neo 8 mid driver is also very quick and accurate. I've never heard a planar before, but I really like it. Voices are clear and open with no boxiness what so ever. These are also dipole mids so you can adjust how much fill goes into the back of the cabinet to control the reverse wave. I have about 1/3 of the module filled, which ads a nice open and deep sound stage. The highs are very smooth and accurate. I didn't really know what to expect with a ribbon tweeter, as I have never heard one of these before either, but it is very nice. One thing I would like to note with regards to the ribbon tweeter compared to my previous silk dome tweeter is hard to explain, but I will try. With the silk dome's, highs would bounce around the room a lot, catching your attention. With the ribbon tweeters this doesn't happen. It's very even response is smooth but very detailed as well. Now this could also have a lot to do with the Xovers and not so much with the tweeters, I will let Dennis comment on that. The sound stage is large and deep. On some material I heard instruments exceed beyond speakers by a few feet with no sound appearing to come from the speakers at all. These speakers have a big sound with lots of presence, and depending on how much fill is added in the top module, can be more forward or laid back. They don't seem to be all that picky with room placement either. I am really enjoying these speakers, and they seem to be improving all the time.

On a side note, I have placed "Big Fat Gliders" from Herbies Audio Lab under these speakers which made moving them a lot easier to move as well as an improvement in tighter bass and detail.

 

[woodsart]

Whoohoo a review!!!!

That is the DM workings, filling the room, sometimes beyond the listener.


Thanks, good review!!!!

 

[Swerd]

Sorry, off topic, but is the xover completed?

… I've already shipped a pair. They use either the Parts Express
.5 cu ft cabinet or the .75 cabinet for deeper bass. The price ranges from about $800 - $900 a pair depending on cabinet size.

Dan

Dennis & I have talked about your project (ER18 woofer & Fountek ribbon tweet in a 0.5 ft³ cabinet) and it may use an identical crossover to the one in the gloss black cabinets.

I've been delayed finishing the cabinet work because I'm taking some heavy duty medication, prednisone, that leaves me feeling most days kind of like this.

Because this drug makes me hyper and lets me sleep less than 4 hours a night, right now I don't trust myself with a router in my hands. I go back to Baltimore tomorrow for another visit to the doctor, and I'll know better how long I may be on this drug.

Dan, I'm sorry for all these delays. You've been more than patient. In the meantime, to make up for my slowness, I've decided to get both cabinets built (unfinished), assemble them, and take a road trip to Blacksburg to get them to you when I'm done. Your original plan was to build them in the summer when you had more time on your hands, so doing more work myself while you are busy at school should be a fair exchange.

As soon as I get one cabinet done, I'll bring it to Dennis with the drivers (I bought both woofers & tweeters to save time) so he can test that existing XO and make changes if any are needed.

Richard

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Pretty much. The dude who bought these is in the middle of a remodeling project and hasn't had a chance to play them. I would be interested in some feedback. I really like them, although I think they need the larger cabinet if used alone without a sub, so they're not cheap.

I think a lot of guys will be interested in a complete set of speakers.

They can get the Phil 1 or Phil 2 (all black) for the front Right/Left.

Then they can get the Phil Bookshelf (also black) for Center + Surround Right/Left.

And some may just want 5 bookshelf for their 5.1 system.

Then one day, people will want a Phil 3 bookshelf to match their Phil 3 towers!

Since most people will be using a subwoofer with their bookshelf speakers & crossing over @ 80Hz, I figure bass down to 50Hz is adequate. I wonder what most people think.

 

[GranteedEV]

Then they can get the Phil Bookshelf (also black) for Center + Surround Right/Left.

And some may just want 5 bookshelf for their 5.1 system.

.... I ....think the founteks might be... a bit overkill for surround speakers I'd imagine there's a cheaper (but still good) tweeter that will work on a surround with comparable results.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...Philharmonic 3...Bass...is very tight...very deep...The neo 8 mid driver is also very...accurate...Voices are clear and open...The highs are very smooth and accurate....They don't seem to be all that picky with room placement...

Very nice.

The Phil3s are accurate speakers with excellent on-axis & polar responses.

These are the opposite of inaccurate speakers with bad on-axis and bad polar responses.

 

[Swerd]

Guys - just to be clear, the black 2-way speaker that Dennis showed, and the delayed-but-in-progress 2-way I'm doing with Dan, was meant to go with the ER18 MTM DIY speaker. It uses one Seas ER18 woofer and one Fountek NeoCd3.0 ribbon in a 0.5 ft³ ported bass reflex cabinet. The version I'm building has a 9" wide front baffle, and the black cabinet made by Parts Express (if I remember correctly) is 8½" wide.

I don't know whether it would be a good companion monitor for the Philharmonics. That would be Dennis's call.

.... I ....think the founteks might be... a bit overkill for surround speakers I'd imagine there's a cheaper (but still good) tweeter that will work on a surround with comparable results.

GranteedEV, I agree with you about a ribbon tweet in surround speakers. And alternative dome tweeter does exist, the Dayton RS-28F-4. See the ER18 MTM DIY thread for more details.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Guys - just to be clear, the black 2-way speaker that Dennis showed, and the delayed-but-in-progress 2-way I'm doing with Dan, was meant to go with the ER18 MTM DIY speaker. It uses one Seas ER18 woofer and one Fountek NeoCd3.0 ribbon in a 0.5 ft³ ported bass reflex cabinet. The version I'm building has a 9" wide front baffle, and the black cabinet made by Parts Express (if I remember correctly) is 8½" wide.

I don't know whether it would be a good companion monitor for the Philharmonics. That would be Dennis's call.

GranteedEV, I agree with you about a ribbon tweet in surround speakers. And alternative dome tweeter does exist, the Dayton RS-28F-4. See the ER18 MTM DIY thread for more details.

I don't think the tweeter is the issue. By using the Fountek in all of my speakers, I can buy in quantity and get the price down within a few bucks of a good dome. The bigger issue is the woofer--why use a 7" in surrounds? Smaller is probably better. I have an mtm center designed using the SB Acoustics 5" woofers and the Fountek. Just waiting for the cabinets from that big land of industrious cheap labor. So an MT with those drivers would probably make more sense in a surround.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Hello everyone, I thought I would sign up here and give my initial thoughts on the Philharmonic 3, as there has been a lot of interest here. I just received them about 5 days ago. Here is what I had posted on AudioCircle.

I would like to give my initial thoughts on these speakers. I have been listening to them for about four days now and I think they are starting to settle in a bit. Lets start with the bottom end, and who doesn't love a great bottom end, sorry back to the speakers. Bass out of these speakers is very tight with quick transient response and good presence. I really can't believe how quick they are for an 8" driver, they are actually faster than my Totem Sttaf speakers with a 5" driver. They also reach down very deep. I don't know how deep in my room, maybe I should get a radio shack spl meter and see what my room is doing. Anyway, the bottom end is deep, tuneful and tight. The neo 8 mid driver is also very quick and accurate. I've never heard a planar before, but I really like it. Voices are clear and open with no boxiness what so ever. These are also dipole mids so you can adjust how much fill goes into the back of the cabinet to control the reverse wave. I have about 1/3 of the module filled, which ads a nice open and deep sound stage. The highs are very smooth and accurate. I didn't really know what to expect with a ribbon tweeter, as I have never heard one of these before either, but it is very nice. One thing I would like to note with regards to the ribbon tweeter compared to my previous silk dome tweeter is hard to explain, but I will try. With the silk dome's, highs would bounce around the room a lot, catching your attention. With the ribbon tweeters this doesn't happen. It's very even response is smooth but very detailed as well. Now this could also have a lot to do with the Xovers and not so much with the tweeters, I will let Dennis comment on that. The sound stage is large and deep. On some material I heard instruments exceed beyond speakers by a few feet with no sound appearing to come from the speakers at all. These speakers have a big sound with lots of presence, and depending on how much fill is added in the top module, can be more forward or laid back. They don't seem to be all that picky with room placement either. I am really enjoying these speakers, and they seem to be improving all the time.

On a side note, I have placed "Big Fat Gliders" from Herbies Audio Lab under these speakers which made moving them a lot easier to move as well as an improvement in tighter bass and detail.

Thanks for taking the trouble to report back. I'm very happy the speakers are working out in your room. With the bass capabilities of the 3's, I'm always relieved to hear that the speakers don't overwhelm the space. Two points about the tweeter sound. First, thanks to the baffle shape, flush mounting, and the inherent quality of the RAAL, response above 3 kHz doesn't vary by more than 1/2 dB up or down. So they are just very smooth. Second, ribbons don't sound like domes, which have more of an sssssssssssssssssssssssssss quality to them. I think that's due to their being point source radiators, while ribbons are closer to line source. And the RAAL has more of this unobtrusive quality than other ribbons. But if they are too prominent in a given application, the diffusor pads will take them down at the top. And wiring a 30-ohm resistor across the tweeter terminals on the top of the bass box will ramp the whole response down a couple of dB. So there should never be a need for anyone to think they're too bright.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think the tweeter is the issue. By using the Fountek in all of my speakers, I can buy in quantity and get the price down within a few bucks of a good dome. The bigger issue is the woofer--why use a 7" in surrounds? Smaller is probably better. I have an mtm center designed using the SB Acoustics 5" woofers and the Fountek. Just waiting for the cabinets from that big land of industrious cheap labor. So an MT with those drivers would probably make more sense in a surround.

As long as you have something for Center & Surrounds that we can recommend.

 

[DenPureSound]

Hello everyone, I thought I would sign up here and give my initial thoughts on the Philharmonic 3, as there has been a lot of interest here. I just received them about 5 days ago. Here is what I had posted on AudioCircle.

I would like to give my initial thoughts on these speakers. I have been listening to them for about four days now and I think they are starting to settle in a bit. Lets start with the bottom end, and who doesn't love a great bottom end, sorry back to the speakers. Bass out of these speakers is very tight with quick transient response and good presence. I really can't believe how quick they are for an 8" driver, they are actually faster than my Totem Sttaf speakers with a 5" driver. They also reach down very deep. I don't know how deep in my room, maybe I should get a radio shack spl meter and see what my room is doing. Anyway, the bottom end is deep, tuneful and tight. The neo 8 mid driver is also very quick and accurate. I've never heard a planar before, but I really like it. Voices are clear and open with no boxiness what so ever. These are also dipole mids so you can adjust how much fill goes into the back of the cabinet to control the reverse wave. I have about 1/3 of the module filled, which ads a nice open and deep sound stage. The highs are very smooth and accurate. I didn't really know what to expect with a ribbon tweeter, as I have never heard one of these before either, but it is very nice. One thing I would like to note with regards to the ribbon tweeter compared to my previous silk dome tweeter is hard to explain, but I will try. With the silk dome's, highs would bounce around the room a lot, catching your attention. With the ribbon tweeters this doesn't happen. It's very even response is smooth but very detailed as well. Now this could also have a lot to do with the Xovers and not so much with the tweeters, I will let Dennis comment on that. The sound stage is large and deep. On some material I heard instruments exceed beyond speakers by a few feet with no sound appearing to come from the speakers at all. These speakers have a big sound with lots of presence, and depending on how much fill is added in the top module, can be more forward or laid back. They don't seem to be all that picky with room placement either. I am really enjoying these speakers, and they seem to be improving all the time.

On a side note, I have placed "Big Fat Gliders" from Herbies Audio Lab under these speakers which made moving them a lot easier to move as well as an improvement in tighter bass and detail.

Nice writeup, and a First so far to my knowledge. If I may ask you a few questions:

1.) How much for the Big Fat Gliders per Pair?

2.) Is your A/V room carpeted or tile or ?

3.) How far off the wall from the Rear of the Speaker to Wall are they positioned?

4.) What is your source that your driving them with, including amp ?

5.) How big is your room (H x W x D) ?

6.) What reference volume level are you playing them at from (-80db to +18db) in STEREO Mode, and at your Sweet Spot for listening what is your SPL meter reading?

7.) Are you using One or Two subs with them?

8.) Are you using Audyssey MultEQ XT32, with 80Hz. Xover, and DynEQ = On, and DynVOL = OFF? or are you running them FULL BAND, with no sub(s)?

Thank you for your nice writeup, and when ADTG gets his III's there will a lot more to come for sure, as he is a Critical Listener comparing them to Salon 2's/KEF's/Linkwitz Orions.

Cheers,

Dennis