Bose: Why Audiophiles Should Stop the Hate

[Wayde Robson]

There will always be some sucker. BOSE knows this and it has made them rich. I just need to find a place to park my conscious and make some serious scratch.

You see... this is where I couldn't disagree more. I might have agreed before a week ago when I studied up on Bose. But if they're just a get-rich scheme - how do you explain the philanthropy of donating a MAJORITY of the company to education and dropping hundreds of millions into research that isn't likely to bear profit?

I'm telling you it's NOT a SCAM. Bose seriously, honestly, sincerely believes in psychoacoustics and has presented technical papers explaining what he's doing. He's not just hiding his products under a veil of marketing hood-winkery.

I think it's easy to dismiss Bose as another scam-artist company looking to get rich quick.

As mentioned in the article - the real villain are the nameless contractors popping up across the third world using overflow and reject parts from electronics factories that already have access to assembly plants that can get garbage electronics made cheaply. This is where your ire should go.

Sadly, nobody seems to care that you can buy a piece of crap portable DVD player which has a battery life <2-hours, selling in junk-stores for <$30, that is only made to be given as a formality-present to someone you don't really like that much then promptly thrown in the garbage.

This IMHO is far, far worse than Bose.

But I guess it's not as sexy as the rush of ego we get when we believe we know better than the average Joe Consumer who thinks Bose is high-end. That's why Bose is so controversial and gets attention online. We like to believe we know better than the average. I'm guilty of it too.

 

[Alex2507]

We like to believe we know better than the average. I'm guilty of it too.

It's not guilt you bear. It's a badge of honor. We do know better than the average Joe (no disrespect to Oregon Average Joe) . Did you spend $500 for a clock radio? Did you spend $5,000 on a 42" LCD? No? Good.

For those who answered 'yes' ... well ... good for you too.
It should go good with your Mac.

 

[krzywica]

.......Did you spend $500 for a clock radio? Did you spend $5,000 on a 42" LCD?..........It should go good with your Mac.

I was going to buy a 42" LCD for even more than that.....but they didn't have the shiny white color that would match my Mac.

Whoever thought this looks sexy needs a punch in the face.....looks like a Fisher Price product....

 

[Wayde Robson]

Bose' demographic is more well-off people who truly, genuinely THINK they're going to be getting the best.

I think you're completely right GranteedEV.

I would caution against believing that pure "objectivism" exists in audio or consumerism.

At risk of having my Audioholics membership card revoked - I don't believe in pure objectivism when it comes to sound. Sure, we appreciate it in electro-mechanical measurements.

And yes, companies should be held to task for the number they publish - that's why destinations like Audioholics are valued.

I happen to work in marketing for a wireless automotive (telematics) engineering firm – not consumer/audio or home theater related, we’re in the automotive OEM space.

But the number one truism about the consumer is that people don’t buy for quality, value and all those things they tell themselves they buy:

People buy their identity.

Over and over and over and over again – every dollar you spend is simply to reinforce who you think you are and who you think you want to be.

In hi-fi your ears are easily deceived. In fact – your ears are your identity’s b!tch.

I'm a huge fan of an old-school hi-fi writer named Tom Nousaine. I'm lucky to have worked with one of his peers Ian Masters who has written extensively on the topic of A/B/X testing the so-called Audiophiles.

Many of the results are comical and a bit scary considering how easily fooled many so-called qualified hi-fi writers are.

Nousaine conducted tests using strict A/B/X guidelines where he took two equal systems but on one did everything you're not supposed to do - including things like … wrapping odd-length speaker wire around fluorescent bulbs, filing down coat-hangers to substitute RCA-cables - none of the panel of pro Audiophile reviewers could ever tell the difference between the systems with any reliability.

He embarrassed noted hi-fi reviewers by swapping out an expensive luxury amp-array (with separate power-supplies) with a $200 Pioneer integrated amp. The panel gave less than a 70% +/- in discerning any difference.

It goes on... he did a 'sighted' variant of an A/B test to have hi-fi writers write about what they heard (posing as a peer review of two ‘new’ amps)

Apparently the guy who first invented Carver - amps was in attendance - Mr. Carver himself was also fooled, his own amps were used in this particular test.

Mr. Nousaine pretended to want this panel (that included Mr. Carver) to write the differences in timbre/tonal qualities between these two amps.

Amp 1: Got adjectives pertaining to warmth.

Amp 2: Primarily received adjectives pertaining to cold.

Unbeknownst to the audience they were the same amp, both visible to the audience – with one superficial difference. Mr. Nousiane had replaced the power diode on Amp 1 with a red diode, Amp 2 - you guessed it... got a blue diode.

I'd love to find this documented somewhere. I believe I still have an old scan of some old magazine that published this story - the predecessor to Sound and Vision. I got them from Ian a long time ago.

 

[Wayde Robson]

Did you spend $5,000 on a 42" LCD? No? Good.

I hear you, brother. I only fear I may be guilty of the elitism of knowing better. There's a self-indulgence within it. I try to atone by sharing what I've learned much as I can with anyone who asks my advice.

Believe me, I get to be the hi-fi/TV/Computer parts guy to friends and family. I don't know how many Christmas and Thanksgiving diners at families I've spent wiring, reconnecting, reworking the home entertainment strategy - often working with garbage electronics.

 

[gene]

You see... this is where I couldn't disagree more. I might have agreed before a week ago when I studied up on Bose. But if they're just a get-rich scheme - how do you explain the philanthropy of donating a MAJORITY of the company to education and dropping hundreds of millions into research that isn't likely to bear profit?

It's important to realize that just b/c a company spends tons of $$$ on research, doesn't mean that the benefits of that research gets directly dumped back into their products, particularly their consumer audio loudspeakers.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It's important to realize that just b/c a company spends tons of $$$ on research, doesn't mean that the benefits of that research gets directly dumped back into their products, particularly their consumer audio loudspeakers.

Or the whole donation (btw: without any control) is just a huge tax write off?

 

[randyb]

I think you're completely right GranteedEV.

I would caution against believing that pure "objectivism" exists in audio or consumerism.

At risk of having my Audioholics membership card revoked - I don't believe in pure objectivism when it comes to sound. Sure, we appreciate it in electro-mechanical measurements.

And yes, companies should be held to task for the number they publish - that's why destinations like Audioholics are valued.

I happen to work in marketing for a wireless automotive (telematics) engineering firm – not consumer/audio or home theater related, we’re in the automotive OEM space.

But the number one truism about the consumer is that people don’t buy for quality, value and all those things they tell themselves they buy:

People buy their identity.

Over and over and over and over again – every dollar you spend is simply to reinforce who you think you are and who you think you want to be.

In hi-fi your ears are easily deceived. In fact – your ears are your identity’s b!tch.

I'm a huge fan of an old-school hi-fi writer named Tom Nousaine. I'm lucky to have worked with one of his peers Ian Masters who has written extensively on the topic of A/B/X testing the so-called Audiophiles.

Many of the results are comical and a bit scary considering how easily fooled many so-called qualified hi-fi writers are.

Nousaine conducted tests using strict A/B/X guidelines where he took two equal systems but on one did everything you're not supposed to do - including things like … wrapping odd-length speaker wire around fluorescent bulbs, filing down coat-hangers to substitute RCA-cables - none of the panel of pro Audiophile reviewers could ever tell the difference between the systems with any reliability.

He embarrassed noted hi-fi reviewers by swapping out an expensive luxury amp-array (with separate power-supplies) with a $200 Pioneer integrated amp. The panel gave less than a 70% +/- in discerning any difference.

It goes on... he did a 'sighted' variant of an A/B test to have hi-fi writers write about what they heard (posing as a peer review of two ‘new’ amps)

Apparently the guy who first invented Carver - amps was in attendance - Mr. Carver himself was also fooled, his own amps were used in this particular test.

Mr. Nousaine pretended to want this panel (that included Mr. Carver) to write the differences in timbre/tonal qualities between these two amps.

Amp 1: Got adjectives pertaining to warmth.

Amp 2: Primarily received adjectives pertaining to cold.

Unbeknownst to the audience they were the same amp, both visible to the audience – with one superficial difference. Mr. Nousiane had replaced the power diode on Amp 1 with a red diode, Amp 2 - you guessed it... got a blue diode.

I'd love to find this documented somewhere. I believe I still have an old scan of some old magazine that published this story - the predecessor to Sound and Vision. I got them from Ian a long time ago.

Write Tom. He has a web site and responds to emails. I believe he has on his web site some of his old articles and you can ask him if he has any that he would mind scanning for you. Ask Tom what hs thinks of "Bose hate" by Audiophiles. LIke him or not Tom calls them like he sees them. I happen to think Tom, David Clark, and some of the old timers did great work.

 

[zhimbo]

If Bose is indeed this "corrupt" then the real question is how intelligent people are... Successful marketing cant deceptive- over decades. Deceptive marketing isn't successful long.

And yet we still have astrology, spiritual mediums and all sorts of crap.

People can be decieved not only for decades, but pretty much indefinitely.

 

[Rickster71]

I'll have to break out my Beer & Soda analogy:

If we're going to knock Bose for their marketing tactics, and sales based on name recognition, we'll have to do the same for Coke and Pepsi, and Bud and Miller, Et al.

Soda is (for the most part) just carbonated sugar water with packaging that costs more than it's contents..... Sugar water with a multi-million dollar advertising budget.

Audioholics has it's equivalent in the beer world, called 'Beer Advocate.'
Care to see how they rate Bud and other beers? http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/29/?sort=nameA
Many of the most popular beers with the largest marketing budgets are rated embarrassingly low. Bud Light is rated a D-, regular Bud gets a D+.
Millions of people are very happy with their watery and popular beer, like Coors Light, Bud, Corona, Miller, etc.

If were going to knock the average guy for buying into Bose, what should we think about all the Audioholics that buy into, and are happy with sugar water or watery beer?

Just my $0.02
.

 

[adwilk]

And yet we still have astrology, spiritual mediums and all sorts of crap.

People can be decieved not only for decades, but pretty much indefinitely.

All those things mentioned, while perhaps complete hocus to YOU, still fill a significant need for the masses.

There's absolutely nothing unethical about giving people what they want at a price (time, money, effort) they're willing to pay for it.

The longevity of these things exist in the satisfaction of people. Most people that buy Bose products are extremely happy with them. That makes it pretty difficult to declare that they are ripping their customers off.

How dare you design, market, and sell a product that millions of people are overwhelmingly happy with and ignore a small handful of nerdy snobs that get off on parameters and prefer numerical data over perception.

Consider the impact that Bose has had on the industry as a whole. They don't just market themselves, they market audio. Their popularity and market penetration brought many more consumers to the audio table than would have been otherwise. I've read SO many posts here of the guy-

"I used to own Bose" "I got Bose for my first real HT setup"

Hundreds of those. The consumer base for audio is much broader thanks to their efforts. We all should be happy that the industry has been able to expand based on their ability to captivate an audience and get them to listen.

 

[adwilk]

I'll have to break out my Beer & Soda analogy:

If we're going to knock Bose for their marketing tactics, and sales based on name recognition, we'll have to do the same for Coke and Pepsi, and Bud and Miller, Et al.

Soda is (for the most part) just carbonated sugar water with packaging that costs more than it's contents..... Sugar water with a multi-million dollar advertising budget.

Audioholics has it's equivalent in the beer world, called 'Beer Advocate.'
Care to see how they rate Bud and other beers? http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/29/?sort=nameA
Many of the most popular beers with the largest marketing budgets are rated embarrassingly low. Bud Light is rated a D-, regular Bud gets a D+.
Millions of people are very happy with their watery and popular beer, like Coors Light, Bud, Corona, Miller, etc.

If were going to knock the average guy for buying into Bose, what should we think about all the Audioholics that buy into, and are happy with sugar water or watery beer?

Just my $0.02
.

You're right, its true in every industry and these giants build the platform for the "more refined" market segments. Without these guys, the industry doesnt exist.

 

[BMXTRIX]

If were going to knock the average guy for buying into Bose, what should we think about all the Audioholics that buy into, and are happy with sugar water or watery beer?

You should think that they are not at all a proper correlation.

You see, a good beer typically costs a bit more, sometimes a fair bit more, than Corona or Bud.

While the weak sounding Bose system costs 4 times as much as a superior sounding Onkyo.

My gripe is not their product, it is the price of their product. I don't argue with people that own Bose, but I will scold them when they complain that it doesn't do something that every other receiver at half the price already does.

A huge donation doesn't equate to 'the good guys', but simply is a huge donation. Hard to say what's going on. But, I will say that if I had my own company and was a multi-millionaire who was entirely satisfied with my money and my kids didn't want to take over, then donating it to a good cause is certainly a possibility. Nothing wrong with that, and not really related to the quality of the product.

 

[adwilk]

While the weak sounding Bose system costs 4 times as much as a superior sounding Onkyo.

When was the last time you saw an Onkyo commercial? Bose has to pay those marketing costs somehow- they raise their price. Thats business101 Just because nobody else in the industry has decided to market their products this way isn't Bose's fault. They want maximum exposure to their products, they spend to accomplish and their pricing reflects it.. Whats the problem here?

 

[Rickster71]

You should think that they are not at all a proper correlation.

You see, a good beer typically costs a bit more, sometimes a fair bit more, than Corona or Bud.

While the weak sounding Bose system costs 4 times as much as a superior sounding Onkyo.

My gripe is not their product, it is the price of their product. I don't argue with people that own Bose, but I will scold them when they complain that it doesn't do something that every other receiver at half the price already does.

A huge donation doesn't equate to 'the good guys', but simply is a huge donation. Hard to say what's going on. But, I will say that if I had my own company and was a multi-millionaire who was entirely satisfied with my money and my kids didn't want to take over, then donating it to a good cause is certainly a possibility. Nothing wrong with that, and not really related to the quality of the product.

I think you've missed most of my point.... It wasn't one of price comparisons.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think you've missed most of my point.... It wasn't one of price comparisons.

I don't think that's a good comparision. Beer is a matter of taste and varies by the individual, and people buy it based on what they individual like, while sound is a matter of reproduction - you're actually trying to be a certain way.

A better comparision would be cars.

A Nissan GTR vs a Ford Focus. now add the caveat of "if you flipped the prices"

and people thought the focus was better. Sure, a person might like the focus better. But they're wrong and it's our duty as human beings to tell them

 

[Rickster71]

OK, let me try this from a slightly different direction.
Coke, Pepsi, Bose, Bud, all wrap an inferior product inside multimillion dollar marketing.

Wayde said it best, and I agree!

People buy their identity.

Over and over and over and over again – every dollar you spend is simply to reinforce who you think you are and who you think you want to be.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..... A little outside of consumer level stuff, but those things have massive horsepower and never fail.

Yes, that is and can be very important in business.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...I'm a huge fan of an old-school hi-fi writer named Tom Nousaine. I'm lucky to have worked with one of his peers Ian Masters who has written extensively on the topic of A/B/X testing the so-called Audiophiles.

....

Yep, couple of greats in audio Tom has a home page on line and a couple of Ian's amp tests are also available.
I met Tom at the 1998 AES conference in SF. What a nice guy he is. I collected all his published writings, and Ian's, that I could find that Carver test is not in them. Perhaps it is written in one of his audio clubs newsletters of yesteryear.

 

[Alex2507]

Wayde said it best, and I agree!

People buy their identity.

I'm used and cheap ?!?