Home Theater Mag reviews a 230lb monster sub from Paradigm

[3db]

Measured response from HT indicates 12Hz at -3db, 11Hz at -6db. It has a total of 6 10" drivers with each motor on the driver weighing in at 25 lbs. The big bad about this unit is its price of 9Gs

 

[templemaners]

I wonder who's the market for a product like this... is it those who have more money than common sense and want a 'lifestyle' product? 9K for a single sub seems over the top excessive to me. It would be interesting to know how much it would cost in the DIY world to equal that level of performance - and how much you would have left over.

Besides, shouldn't you be mocked for spending so much money on a sub and only having 10" woofers, even if you do get a six pack of them?

 

[Warpdrv]

It would be interesting to know how much it would cost in the DIY world to equal that level of performance - and how much you would have left over.

It would be far less then you think....

By rough calculations, we figured out that one of my XLERATORS would have roughly at least 2-3 times the output of that unit in surface area and excursion. you don't have to build boxes as nice as mine, so you can go much cheaper - with a couple of sheets of Baltic Birch ply or even MDF. I really took a long look at that product and its design before my build.

Price is subject to what you invest in the enclosure, amps, drivers but one could do the rough math to figure that out..
Pair of 18" LMS's - wood to build a dual opposed box, and either 1 very large expensive amp or a pair of medium sized amps - even an ep2500 or ep4000 per driver would suffice, unless you wanted that last 3db out of each driver, then 4000w per driver.

There is no question that the Sub 2 is a very detailed build, a nice small and powerful little package, with built in amp and EQ - but certainly expensive..

 

[shadyJ]

It's no doubt a very nice sub, but horrendously over-priced. You have to admire the engineering of the design though. It's not going to compete with a good, well-built TC sounds LMS sub, but I wonder how it compares to the JL Audio G213 Gotham, another deleriously over-priced but good sub. I wonder how these compare to a Submersive HP, which is only a fraction of the price.

 

[3db]

It's no doubt a very nice sub, but horrendously over-priced. You have to admire the engineering of the design though. It's not going to compete with a good, well-built TC sounds LMS sub, but I wonder how it compares to the JL Audio G213 Gotham, another deleriously over-priced but good sub. I wonder how these compare to a Submersive HP, which is only a fraction of the price.

Price aside, There are not too many subs I know can do a solid 12 Hz. This is measured, and not a published spec.. which brings me to another question, why are you alarmed that Paradigm used 10" drivers? I wonder howm many commerically available subs with 12, 15, or 18" driver can hit this hard?

 

[shadyJ]

Price aside, There are not too many subs I know can do a solid 12 Hz. This is measured, and not a published spec.. which brings me to another question, why are you alarmed that Paradigm used 10" drivers? I wonder howm many commerically available subs with 12, 15, or 18" driver can hit this hard?

I didn't say anything about its drivers, you must be referring to an above comment. However, I would respond in saying that the kind of excursion a bunch of 10" drivers need to hit 12 hz must be pretty incredible, even if you have six such drivers. I haven't read the review, but I wonder about it's max clean output at 12 hz vs upper bass frequencies. I have no doubt it's a great sub though, I would love to have one, although I don't think it's worth 9k. To be fair, there probably aren't that many customers paying full MSRP for the thing.

If I were to criticize it, I would say that the more moving parts something has, the likelier it is to break down, so I don't think a sub with six drivers would have the reliability of a single driver. But I think if you bought that monster from a authorized dealer, you would get a good manufacturers warranty from Paradigm, so that wouldn't worry me anyway.

I think a cool sub would be that same three way design, but using 15" or 18" drivers. That would be insanity!

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Review

Measured response from HT indicates 12Hz at -3db, 11Hz at -6db. It has a total of 6 10" drivers with each motor on the driver weighing in at 25 lbs. The big bad about this unit is its price of 9Gs

Just in case some want to read it

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers-products-menu-column1-41/934-paradigm-reference-signature-sub-2-subwoofer.html

 

[3db]

Just in case some want to read it

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers-products-menu-column1-41/934-paradigm-reference-signature-sub-2-subwoofer.html

Thanks. I tried to find the link yesterday but was unsucessful

 

[Warpdrv]

Price aside, There are not too many subs I know can do a solid 12 Hz. This is measured, and not a published spec.. which brings me to another question, why are you alarmed that Paradigm used 10" drivers? I wonder howm many commerically available subs with 12, 15, or 18" driver can hit this hard?

Keep in mind 3db, that all these measurements are taken indoors with room gain being added into the test results... It would be nice for real comparisons sake to have outdoor ground plane measurements to. be consistent in comparing to other tests... what is the size of the room / test lab - that right there is enough to somewhat taint the results in terms of SPL - givin everyones room sizes are different, those numbers can't be relied on as an average test IMO...


Don't get me wrong, for a commercial product - this unit shows spectacular results..... and I really like the extremely compact design... so cool...

 

[3db]

Keep in mind 3db, that all these measurements are taken indoors with room gain being added into the test results... It would be nice for real comparisons sake to have outdoor ground plane measurements to. be consistent in comparing to other tests... what is the size of the room / test lab - that right there is enough to somewhat taint the results in terms of SPL - givin everyones room sizes are different, those numbers can't be relied on as an average test IMO...


Don't get me wrong, for a commercial product - this unit shows spectacular results..... and I really like the extremely compact design... so cool...

I here you. Wait no I don't..let me turn down the bass first . Seriously though, you make some valid points. If all the mags would take their measurements from the same room, then some consistency would be achieved in meausrements across the board. Oh and these room specs should be published as well.

I think the 25lbs motor drivers impressed me the most followed by the somewhat compact dimensions.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have to say that is rather a ridiculous product. It is terminally inefficient, and the in room spl. is nothing to write home about for that money.

The power demands are totally off the clock and unreasonable.

I bet that unit will be a money looser for them.

I think when it comes to subs, DIY is absolutely the way to go.

And while you are about it, sacrificing output for extreme bass extension is a bad trade off and this unit proves the point.

That is not a product I would recommend to anyone.

 

[3db]

And while you are about it, sacrificing output for extreme bass extension is a bad trade off and this unit proves the point.

From the review that I glanced over quickly this sub doesn't sacrifice output for base extension at all. Where are you seeing this? I suspect this sub given its room corrective software will slay just about any sub it encounters period.

I agree that the price is absurd and the power requirements are out of the norm. I believe the target audience are for celebs and the corp elite with huge dedicated HT rooms where power requirements are well beyond the standard 120V.

Besides, every home I know in NA has a 240 volt outlet.... who needs an oven?

 

[gene]

Measured response from HT indicates 12Hz at -3db, 11Hz at -6db. It has a total of 6 10" drivers with each motor on the driver weighing in at 25 lbs. The big bad about this unit is its price of 9Gs

I wonder did they measure it outdoors a 1 or 2 meter groundplane vs max SPL out, or do it at 2 feet in-room like Hometheaterhifi.com does???

 

[Warpdrv]

I wonder did they measure it outdoors a 1 or 2 meter groundplane vs max SPL out, or do it at 2 feet in-room like Hometheaterhifi.com does???

From page 3 - all indoor measurements

Because the SUB 2 has drivers pointing in three directions, and so as not to color the test results with corner loading, I performed the bench tests with the sub sitting about 6 feet away from the nearest two walls. I put the test microphone 2 meters away from the subwoofer. Once I was done with the bench tests, I moved the sub into the left front corner

Plus on top of that in the comments after the review, jj stated this...

The Paradigm SUB 2 and SVS B4 perform about the same at 25 Hz and above. But at 20 Hz and 15 Hz, the Paradigm has much lower distortion.

I tested the B4-Plus outdoors because of its size, and the Paradigm was tested in the lab, so direct comparison is not possible. There has been some controversy in the literature about measuring subwoofer frequency response outdoors using a ground plane setup (microphone 2 meters from the front of the sub, with the microphone laying on the ground). We will be discussing the problems associated with this technique at a future date.

 

[shadyJ]

How could this product be fairly compared to a single driver sub in outdoor measurements? With all those drivers facing away from a single mic, I would guess there is a lot of energy that would be missed in such a test. Another thing is, TLS guy says this is a ridiculous product. I don't fully agree, I think the point of this product is to get high-output low-frequencies in as small of a package as possible, with cost and efficiency not really a consideration. It looks like they have achieved this goal pretty well. How could this have been done better?

 

[gene]

How could this product be fairly compared to a single driver sub in outdoor measurements? With all those drivers facing away from a single mic, I would guess there is a lot of energy that would be missed in such a test. Another thing is, TLS guy says this is a ridiculous product. I don't fully agree, I think the point of this product is to get high-output low-frequencies in as small of a package as possible, with cost and efficiency not really a consideration. It looks like they have achieved this goal pretty well. How could this have been done better?

TLS assessment is pretty dead on. Once you stuff that many drivers into a small enclosure your efficiency goes way down, especially at low frequencies. It's interesting that nobody, including Paradigm has conducted outdoor or true 4pi measurements of this product. Until that happens, we will never know its true output capabilities. Claiming you can't measure it outdoors 2 meters away from an approximate acoustical center is just plain ridiculous.

 

[its phillip]

I think the point of this product is to get high-output low-frequencies in as small of a package as possible, with cost and efficiency not really a consideration. It looks like they have achieved this goal pretty well. How could this have been done better?

I dunno if warp has done any measurements of his new sub, but it's about the same size as the paradigm and $6000 less

FW 18.0
22.5" H x 22" W x 22" D

Paradigm SUB 2
24.5" H x 23.75" W x 22.3" D

 

[gene]

Recommended Reading

This article applies now more than ever based on what I am seeing here:

Audio Measurements: The Useful vs the Bogus

 

[Warpdrv]

I dunno if warp has done any measurements of his new sub, but it's about the same size as the paradigm and $6000 less

FW 18.0
22.5" H x 22" W x 22" D

Paradigm SUB 2
24.5" H x 23.75" W x 22.3" D

There are already a couple of measurement sets of the single driver 18" LMS from Ilkka as well as Ricci on his Data-Bass site...

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8154-diy-tc-sounds-lms-5400-18-sealed-100l-lt.html#post184524

http://www.data-bass.com/data?category=systems&type=1&mfr=8

No need for me to test mine, but I always love looking at Bosso's overlay of my Dual Opposed subs estimated response with no LT/EQ or room gain applied....

http://img1.imagehousing.com/57/1806a54a47741fbf9c7653bfa8fe61fb.png

 

[just-some-guy]

Besides, every home I know in NA has a 240 volt outlet.... who needs an oven?

not here. 240v is an oddity. mostly intended for welders.
gas is the choice for driers and ovens here.