Home Theater Mag reviews a 230lb monster sub from Paradigm

[3db]

not here. 240v is an oddity. mostly intended for welders.
gas is the choice for driers and ovens here.

now thats odd

 

[annunaki]

Price aside, There are not too many subs I know can do a solid 12 Hz. This is measured, and not a published spec.. which brings me to another question, why are you alarmed that Paradigm used 10" drivers? I wonder howm many commerically available subs with 12, 15, or 18" driver can hit this hard?

True it is measured but at what output level??

I will have to reread the article but I do not think that HT Mag listed the output level this response is measured with. What happens when the volume goes way up to near maximum? Does the response continue to stay that linear?

This is where I believe the Xcelerators or other DIY designs can still best these types of products.

As is highlighted by gene & others just because it is measured does not mean anything unless one understands how it was measured or the methodology.

6 drivers in a relatively small cabinet is also not very efficient and probably requires a specially made driver and/or large amounts of eq or both.

 

[gene]

There is no good reason to make a sub flat down to 12Hz other than marketing. Making a sub flat to 20Hz at meaningful output will have plenty of room gain to play bass below those frequencies if ever called upon to do so. There is virtually no program material that goes much below 20Hz and the tactile feel you get from bass is actually much higher than 20Hz. Don't let marketing and poor measurement techniques fool you.

Read: Trading Output for Extension - A New Trend in Subs?

Let me go on record and say that Paradigm makes some very nice products, but the Sub1 and Sub2 are simply ridiculous. The A/V magazines gushing over them and doing close miked in-room measurements are even more ridiculous.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is no good reason to make a sub flat down to 12Hz other than marketing. Making a sub flat to 20Hz at meaningful output will have plenty of room gain to play bass below those frequencies if ever called upon to do so. There is virtually no program material that goes much below 20Hz and the tactile feel you get from bass is actually much higher than 20Hz. Don't let marketing and poor measurement techniques fool you.

Read: Trading Output for Extension - A New Trend in Subs?

Let me go on record and say that Paradigm makes some very nice products, but the Sub1 and Sub2 are simply ridiculous. The A/V magazines gushing over them and doing close miked in-room measurements are even more ridiculous.

I agree with you completely Gene.

If you ran that unit with sustained bass on a 240 volt circuit it would be an oven. It can draw as much current as an oven, with no vents. It's sealed. So in that small space with that much power, there are going to be all kinds of thermal distortions and non linearity from gas compression.

That unit has no reason to be produced and except to fleece wealthy ignoramuses.

 

[Sputter]

There is no good reason to make a sub flat down to 12Hz other than marketing. Making a sub flat to 20Hz at meaningful output will have plenty of room gain to play bass below those frequencies if ever called upon to do so. There is virtually no program material that goes much below 20Hz and the tactile feel you get from bass is actually much higher than 20Hz. Don't let marketing and poor measurement techniques fool you.

Read: Trading Output for Extension - A New Trend in Subs?

Let me go on record and say that Paradigm makes some very nice products, but the Sub1 and Sub2 are simply ridiculous. The A/V magazines gushing over them and doing close miked in-room measurements are even more ridiculous.

Gene, define "program material" as there quite a few films that go much lower than 20hz.

 

[shadyJ]

I have to agree with Gene, it just isn't very useful. I think going lower than the upper teens is just a gimmick. Sure you can make stuff shake in your house when running some low frequency sine wave tones, but you can't hear anything, and you can barely feel anything as well. 12 hz is a dumb tuning point, it takes a huge amount of energy to reach that air displacement, and there just isn't anything down there to warrant that effort.

 

[shadyJ]

Gene, define "program material" as there quite a few films that go much lower than 20hz.

I don't think that there are that many films, at least not enough to justify getting the massive kind of system that can hit down that low. The vast majority of movies, even action movies coming out nowadays, aren't doing much below 20 hz, even they even get that low. Sure there is Tron and a handful of other movies, but is it really worth it to get the behemoth subs that are tunes to 14 hz just to playback material you can't even in hear in just a handful of movies?

 

[TLS Guy]

Gene, define "program material" as there quite a few films that go much lower than 20hz.

It does not matter if they do.

What matters is good performance to 25 Hz or so. If you can get -3 db at 20 Hz in room that is more than adequate.

What really matters is being able to do acieve effective spl, and integrated with the rest of the system.

Remember there is no such thing as fast bass.

When you have deep bass with a snap to it, then there is a huge upper bass, mid and HF component.

Listen to any reproduction below 80 Hz with a fourth order low pass filter, and all you will hear is a rumbling sound. There is nothing fast about it.

Having said that I like a a bass that is not over resonant with a Qts of around 0.5. However if I play any selection with the low pass at 60 Hz, it is still just a rumble. It takes the rest of the system to make it sound tight and realistic with huge slam.

I don't even use a sub as such, but the system has good spl and any explosions shake the floor and threaten to push out windows if you are not careful. Design is -3 db at 27 Hz, but in room measured, because of room gain is -3 db at 20 Hz.

It would not make a wit of difference if the F3 point were lower, no matter what was recorded on the source.

Another thing I have noticed is that efficient bass systems seem to sound better than brute force inefficient ones.

The old adage: - "Do speakers have to be large? No, but it really, really helps." I think that will always be true.

The bottom line is this, and its counter intuitive, but correct. Realistic bass that gives that sense of being there, is far more dependent on the main speakers than the sub.

Your main speaker system is always the place to put your money.

A a really good speaker system with a sub with an F3 in the 25 to 30 Hz range, will have much better and more realistic bass than a poor speaker system with a sub that has an F3 below 20 Hz.

 

[gene]

A Note about Slopes and F3

Also watch out for subs that place a brickwall filter below its f3 point. This will negate any room gain below that frequency and can typically cause the sub to ring. I'd much rather have a sub flat to 25Hz with a gradual 12dB/Oct rolloff below that than a sub flat to 20Hz with a high pass brickwall filter set at 20Hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

9K for a single sub seems over the top excessive to me.

$9,000?

Please, that ain't nothing, man.

Here is a $16,000 sub from KEF - the 209:

http://www.kefdirect.com/209-subwoofer.html

 

[Sputter]

I don't think that there are that many films, at least not enough to justify getting the massive kind of system that can hit down that low. The vast majority of movies, even action movies coming out nowadays, aren't doing much below 20 hz, even they even get that low. Sure there is Tron and a handful of other movies, but is it really worth it to get the behemoth subs that are tunes to 14 hz just to playback material you can't even in hear in just a handful of movies?

I don't disagree with you. I'm not interested in chasing 10hz (or whatever).
20hz or a bit lower suits me fine. We've all seen Waterfalls of number of films with some lower ~20hz material. That brings me back to my statement, there are ~20hz films out there ( i dunno how many)

Both Gene and TLS make valid points.
Being that i'm a user of Commercial subs rather than a DIYer I can't really comment on what values make a good driver. One day soon i'll be taking a shot at DIY project. At this point I can only take what the manufacters build.

Jim

 

[Warpdrv]

The funny thing with them touting that their signature subs can reach down to 10-12hz din or whatever they are phrasing it at - is when I asked them if they were ever going to be getting perfect bass kit or ARC (anthem room correction) to start taking measurements down below 20hz - I got ahhh NO Response.

Why make such claims to plumb the depths and not truly see how and what....

Even in my extra large ridiculous room, with my monster subs I originally was shooting for the extreme low end, but in the end my room response gives me roughly down to 15hz and I'm more then thrilled to death with that much subsonics - ultimately anything below 20 hz is just gravy but totally not necessary IMO...

If I were to put my huge subs of mine into a much smaller enclosed room I can easily state they will hit single digits, but do I really want that or care - NOPE...

My single 18" LMS in my small bedroom gives me all that and a bag o chips - down to 10hz - I can honestly say that it is really no big deal to me... sound quality is awesome with or without the subsonics...

 

[TLS Guy]

$9,000?

Please, that ain't nothing, man.

Here is a $16,000 sub from KEF - the 209:

http://www.kefdirect.com/209-subwoofer.html

Wow. That one really makes the case for DIY. Impressive woofer though. An 18 incher with an xmax of 30 mm.

It does produce 120 db spl with power that is not totally insane.

So it heads in the right direction compared to the Paradigm. However you could achieve these results DIY at a fraction of the cost.

 

[its phillip]

The captivator has an 18" woofer with 30mm xmax as well

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

Unfortunately, the cost increased somewhat a month or two ago but I still think it's a terrific value.

 

[gene]

Here is a plot of an in-room measurement of my system in the front row using no smoothing. My RBH subs are tuned at 18Hz and my Velodyne's are sealed. AS you can see b/c of room gain, my -3dB point is 12Hz. I can put out over 110dB at my listening position for around 15Hz but it starts dimming the lights in my room.

While you can feel the rafters shaking in the house at this point, the bass isn't very tactile. Most of the tactile bass we feel is in the 40-60Hz range. I haven't found many movies and certainly no music content with bass info below 20Hz.

 

[Warpdrv]

I guess that KEF sub makes the Funky Waves 18.0 look like a bargain !!
38mm one way XMAX
2000w amp - 4000w avail

http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_18_0

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just like speakers and cars, I'm sure there are many factors in choosing subwoofers.

$10,000 Revel Ultima2 Rhythm2 18" subwoofer vs. $16,000 KEF 709 18" subwoofer vs. $9,000 Paradigm subwoofer?

http://www.revelspeakers.com/ProductDetails.aspx?prdid=35

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is a plot of an in-room measurement of my system in the front row using no smoothing. My RBH subs are tuned at 18Hz and my Velodyne's are sealed. AS you can see b/c of room gain, my -3dB point is 12Hz. I can put out over 110dB at my listening position for around 15Hz but it starts dimming the lights in my room.

While you can feel the rafters shaking in the house at this point, the bass isn't very tactile. Most of the tactile bass we feel is in the 40-60Hz range. I haven't found many movies and certainly no music content with bass info below 20Hz.

Gene, are you working on the review of the RBH 1010N/R subwoofer?

Or better yet, how about the RBH SX-1010N/R subwoofer?

 

[GranteedEV]

Also watch out for subs that place a brickwall filter below its f3 point. This will negate any room gain below that frequency and can typically cause the sub to ring. I'd much rather have a sub flat to 25Hz with a gradual 12dB/Oct rolloff below that than a sub flat to 20Hz with a high pass brickwall filter set at 20Hz.

Great point.

But that's why I like a 14hz tune (with a low fs woofer mind you, not tuned so low that it's not optimal))

You can have a gradual rolloff down to 14hz, and because there's little high level content below such a tuning point, you can get away without any electronic filters.

Tradeoff is BOX size, vent design, and you must use a relatively inefficient low fs woofer (IE 88db/2.83v/m for an 18 incher).

 

[Beatmatcher247]

Warp, is below 20 Hz, kind of the point where you can "feel" the sound but not able to hear it?