Best Amp under 1K for HT

[spike99]

Hi,

I currently have a AV receiver (Denon AVR-4308CI) and I'm planning on getting an amp. My speakers: B&W CM 8 series (5.1 setup). Initially, I was going for separates Marantz AV7005 and pair it off with Emotiva XPA-5. After doing a bit more research... Unless someone disagrees, I really don't believe I need to change my AV receiver and instead only need to buy an amp.

My understanding is that using XLR cables are better than using RCA plugs which is what I would be using if I used my current 4308, but my understanding is that this only makes a difference if you have a long run and since receiver and will be sitting on top of AMP, this may not make a difference ?

So, If I'm only getting an AMP and possibly in the future get another receiver or processor... wanted to check what is the best amp under 1K that I can buy... Currently my top choice is Emotiva XPA-5 but wanted to check other suggestions.

Note: Due to space and limited outlet space, I prefer to get one amp for all speakers...

Thanks.

 

[Swerd]

I currently have a AV receiver (Denon AVR-4308CI) and I'm planning on getting an amp. My speakers: B&W CM 8 series (5.1 setup). Initially, I was going for separates Marantz AV7005 and pair it off with Emotiva XPA-5. After doing a bit more research... Unless someone disagrees, I really don't believe I need to change my AV receiver and instead only need to buy an amp.

Correct. Your Denon receiver probably has more sophisticated circuits and features than most if not all HT preamp/processors.

My understanding is that using XLR cables are better than using RCA plugs which is what I would be using if I used my current 4308, but my understanding is that this only makes a difference if you have a long run and since receiver and will be sitting on top of AMP, this may not make a difference ?

Balanced circuits and XLR connections may make a difference if you have a long run and if the voltage involved is very low, such as 1 to 5 mV, as often is the case with microphones. I'm not sure what the preamp level voltage is on your receiver, but it is probably in the ballpark of 1 to 5 volts. That's 1000 times greater than a microphone. Cables with XLR connections can benefit when very low voltage signals suffer from electronic noise or interference, but between a preamp and an amp, they are strictly a fashion statement.

What is the power output on your receiver? The current model, Denon 4311CI is rated at 140 wpc. That is by no means small. If yours is similar, you may not notice any improvement with a 200 wpc amp. Going 10-fold larger is probably out of the question, but maybe 3-fold might make an audible improvement. Depending on your listening preferences, you might consider getting a 2-channel amp and use it only for your front L & R speakers, while powering your other speakers with the Denon.

 

[spike99]

What is the power output on your receiver? The current model, Denon 4311CI is rated at 140 wpc. That is by no means small. If yours is similar, you may not notice any improvement with a 200 wpc amp. Going 10-fold larger is probably out of the question, but maybe 3-fold might make an audible improvement. Depending on your listening preferences, you might consider getting a 2-channel amp and use it only for your front L & R speakers, while powering your other speakers with the Denon.

My Denon 4308 is rated at 140 wpc. I do believe I really need a 2 or 3 channel amp for FL, FR & Center but figured... If I was going to get an amp... might as well and plug all speakers...

So you are saying that I won't make a difference if I get a 200 wpc amp like XPA-5 ? It's a bit confusing... cause some ppl say it will and some ppl say it won't make a difference

My main use is really 90% Blu Ray movies and 10% music.... so mainly movies.

Thanks.

 

[walter duque]

IMO buy the most powerfull amp you can afford. That will be part of your system for many years. Everything else you're gona upgrade every couple of years anyway. Money of power amps is well spend.

 

[GranteedEV]

My Denon 4308 is rated at 140 wpc. I do believe I really need a 2 or 3 channel amp for FL, FR & Center but figured... If I was going to get an amp... might as well and plug all speakers...

So you are saying that I won't make a difference if I get a 200 wpc amp like XPA-5 ? It's a bit confusing... cause some ppl say it will and some ppl say it won't make a difference

An amp CAN make a difference, but not necessarily.

Your best bet if adding an amp is to double up on power.

While it does have a fan that you may want to inquire about, I recommend this amp:

http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=146&products_id=671

That's 450 watts into 8 ohms and 700 watts into 4 ohms, and even 1350 watts into 2 ohms if your speakers have wild behaviour.

As for fan noise, it may be inaudible, it may also be possible to do a fan mod which won't be an issue for HT (these are pro-level amps, do they're rugged enough to handle full-on parties and concerts, and don't take nearly the abuse at home).

Here is one person that has used the face audio for HT:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=976373

 

[Pyrrho]

My Denon 4308 is rated at 140 wpc. I do believe I really need a 2 or 3 channel amp for FL, FR & Center but figured... If I was going to get an amp... might as well and plug all speakers...

So you are saying that I won't make a difference if I get a 200 wpc amp like XPA-5 ? It's a bit confusing... cause some ppl say it will and some ppl say it won't make a difference

My main use is really 90% Blu Ray movies and 10% music.... so mainly movies.

Thanks.

Yes, some people say it won't make a difference because it typically doesn't. Basically, if your current amplifier (built into your receiver) is adequate for driving your speakers properly and as loud as you ever want to hear them, then it will be a total waste of money to buy a separate amplifier. The ONLY times one needs a separate amplifier are when the speakers are a difficult load (i.e., low impedance issues) or if one wants to play them louder than one can with one's receiver.

Now, for louder, it takes a doubling of power for every 3dB increase in sound, and if your receiver has indication in decibels for the volume control, you can hear for yourself how little that really is. So, to get just 3dB more volume than 140 watts, you need 280 watts, and to get just 3dB more than that, you need 560 watts, etc. (Notice, too, that there will be limits on what your speakers can handle, so it may be that only a very slight increase in volume over your receiver will be possible.)


Most people who buy separate amplifiers are throwing away their money on something that makes no difference. Don't be one of those fools.

Of course, if you really need it, then buy it. See above for the conditions when one would need it.

 

[Swerd]

My Denon 4308 is rated at 140 wpc. I do believe I really need a 2 or 3 channel amp for FL, FR & Center but figured... If I was going to get an amp... might as well and plug all speakers...

So you are saying that I won't make a difference if I get a 200 wpc amp like XPA-5 ? It's a bit confusing... cause some ppl say it will and some ppl say it won't make a difference

My main use is really 90% Blu Ray movies and 10% music.... so mainly movies.

My thinking is based on the idea that the main benefit of an external amp is more power so your speakers never get a clipped signal from the amp. That can damage speakers.

Whether you hear the difference coming from an external amp depends on what you now have, a rather power Denon, and how power hungry your speakers are. The general rule is that doubling an amp's power will add 3dB of loudness to the speakers. That's not very much, and that's why I guessing that going from 140 to 200 wpc may not be audible. You are more likely to hear the difference with a 10-fold increase, but there aren't too many 1400 wpc amps out there. So instead of 10-fold, or 1 log increase, try a half log or 3-fold increase. When I got an external 2-channel amp, I went from 70 wpc to 200 wpc for the front main speakers. The difference was subtle but noticable.

The other benefit of adding an amp for some of your speakers, such as with a 2-channel amp, is that the hardware in any receiver or amp that limits the power output is the power transformer. With a large 2-channel amp driving your main L&R speakers, and the Denon driving the other speakers, you will have two power transformers working. The transformer in the Denon will have a lot less work to do once it is relieved of driving the front L&R speakers. Doesn't Emotiva sell a larger 2-channel amp?

I forgot to add earlier that XLR cables can only supress electronic noise if both devices on each end of the cable have balanced circuitry to perform the noise cancelling. Your Denon receiver may have the XLR output jacks, but I don't know if it has the fully balanced circuitry.

 

[PENG]

Hi,

I currently have a AV receiver (Denon AVR-4308CI) and I'm planning on getting an amp. My speakers: B&W CM 8 series (5.1 setup). Initially, I was going for separates Marantz AV7005 and pair it off with Emotiva XPA-5. After doing a bit more research... Unless someone disagrees, I really don't believe I need to change my AV receiver and instead only need to buy an amp.

My understanding is that using XLR cables are better than using RCA plugs which is what I would be using if I used my current 4308, but my understanding is that this only makes a difference if you have a long run and since receiver and will be sitting on top of AMP, this may not make a difference ?

So, If I'm only getting an AMP and possibly in the future get another receiver or processor... wanted to check what is the best amp under 1K that I can buy... Currently my top choice is Emotiva XPA-5 but wanted to check other suggestions.

Note: Due to space and limited outlet space, I prefer to get one amp for all speakers...

Thanks.

The 4308 has all sorts of power when used to play two channel stuff because the reasonably large power supply will have only two mouths to feed. I upgraded to separates to have more fun and feel good, but no SQ improvements. All those talks about Denon being good for HT not for music are nothing more than BS. I would go back to Denon in a heart beat if they come out with a mid range prepro in the 1.5 to 2K price range.

For HT if you want to have peace of mind, some good choices are the XPA-2, XPA-3 or stretch your budget by just a touch to get this one:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html

IMO this is a better amp than the Emo's.

 

[spike99]

Doesn't Emotiva sell a larger 2-channel amp?

I forgot to add earlier that XLR cables can only supress electronic noise if both devices on each end of the cable have balanced circuitry to perform the noise cancelling. Your Denon receiver may have the XLR output jacks, but I don't know if it has the fully balanced circuitry.

Yes, Emotiva has a 300 wpc for a 2-channel amp... but again, my idea was to connect all speakers to amp... but I suppose the ideal would be to connect the 2-channel amp instead...

My Denon does not have XLR output jacks...

My thoughts were that a separate amp was going to improve the sound quality... but again... some suggest it won't make any difference...

dunno... I was high on getting an amp... but now I'm doubting whether its a good investment... from previous comments.

 

[walter duque]

I had a Denon AVR about 5 Years ago 140 X 7 and after about a month I ended up giving it away for free. It did now work in my system at all. Made my 9K speakers (that's with out subs) sound like a $2.-- system. I don't think that AVR puts out more than 50 watts X 7 . Specs don't mean nothing to me. I need results. Even with the volume all the way up I couldn't wake up the neighbours, and I live in an apartment complex. What you need is real power and then you'll be OK. Even if you get a good 100 watt amp it will sound better than what you have in that AVR. IMO any decent system should have a minimum of 200 watts per channel, anything less is a waste of money.

 

[spike99]

Hey, checking specs for my B&W speakers... I noticed the following recommended amplifier power...


CM8: 30W - 150W into 8Ω on unclipped programme
CM Center: 30W -120W into 8Ω on unclipped programme
CM1: 30W -100W into 8Ω on unclipped programme

Honestly, I really don't expect to drive my speakers to their limit... but should I be concerned putting a 200W amp to these speakers ?

 

[jinjuku]

We need to be addressing some things first before just making a blanket recommendation to get an amp.

First off what are your room dimensions (L/W/H) and what is your seating distance.

2nd on the volume dial where is it at when you really hop on it?

 

[spike99]

We need to be addressing some things first before just making a blanket recommendation to get and amp.

First off what are your room dimensions (L/W/H) and what is your seating distance.

2nd on the volume dial where is it at when you really hop on it?

Room is somewhat small: 15' x 14' x 9'
Seating distance is about 12'
When watching movies... It's usually about 18db

 

[Crackerballer]

I had a Denon AVR about 5 Years ago 140 X 7 and after about a month I ended up giving it away for free. It did now work in my system at all. Made my 9K speakers (that's with out subs) sound like a $2.-- system. I don't think that AVR puts out more than 50 watts X 7 . Specs don't mean nothing to me. I need results. Even with the volume all the way up I couldn't wake up the neighbours, and I live in an apartment complex. What you need is real power and then you'll be OK. Even if you get a good 100 watt amp it will sound better than what you have in that AVR. IMO any decent system should have a minimum of 200 watts per channel, anything less is a waste of money.

From all I have read, in terms of actual versus advertised wpc, Denon is in the top 3 with Yamaha and Onkyo. I am sure "specs don't mean nothing" to most, but did you actually test the Denon to see what the output was, and are you sure the source running into it for audio was good? How about the setup?

Again, there are too many blanket statements in your post. It makes it hard to take anything you say seriously. There is a reason Denon sells hundreds of thousands of receivers every model run, and that is because they use quality components and have great features for the cost, just like Onkyo, Yamaha, and other reputable receiver companies.

OP, I just researched doing the same thing as you, running a nice Denon and then a separate 2 channel just to power the fronts and I came to the conclusion that unless you need the volume or have a very power hunger speaker (read something with several larger woofers, mids, and a tweeter, M80 Axioms or the like), most higher end receivers will give you MORE than enough power.

 

[Crackerballer]

Room is somewhat small: 15' x 14' x 9'
Seating distance is about 12'
When watching movies... It's usually about 18db

That's a similar size room as mine, I am in a 16x13x8 and my Denon does work in this size room. Save the money, don't get an amp.

 

[spike99]

OP, I just researched doing the same thing as you, running a nice Denon and then a separate 2 channel just to power the fronts and I came to the conclusion that unless you need the volume or have a very power hunger speaker (read something with several larger woofers, mids, and a tweeter, M80 Axioms or the like), most higher end receivers will give you MORE than enough power.

Like I said... I don't consider that I blast my speakers... Just thought that I would get better sound quality... but seems like it will only make a difference if you you crank up the volume... versus the quality of sound...

I'm always confused cause some ppl say it makes a difference and some not... I even called Denon twice... first rep told me it won't make a difference and then called a different day for a different question and repeated question about getting separate amp... and rep told me that it will make a difference... lol

 

[Crackerballer]

The other option is to find someone local with a 2 channel and just ask to borrow it. Or find a retailer who will let you buy and return.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I even called Denon twice... first rep told me it won't make a difference and then called a different day for a different question and repeated question about getting separate amp... and rep told me that it will make a difference... lol

Those tech reps are like those guys who work at Best Buy; they are truly pathetic.

The only thing they can do is read the manual verbatim back to you.

You will get 100% better help and advice from Audioholics or AVS, etc.

I recommend you go to The Audio Critic website and start reading their archives. You will learn a lot; your knowledge will expand in about 1 hr.

The Denon 4308 has some great power and you won't need anymore than that unless you just have upgraditis like the rest of us 'holics.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you do in fact have upgraditis and must buy an amp, I recommend buying a stereo amp for your front Left & Right speakers since all the power requirement is here (and in the Subwoofer).

Your center speaker only gets the dialogue and the surrounds only get the ambience effects, which is probably no more than 10 watts of power per channel.

Check out this beast -The ATI AT3002 amp:

The asking price is $1,400 + shipping. The retail price is $2,500.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1307911246

Classic Audio Parts is an Authorized ATI dealer, and this amp is in perfect 10/10 condition, which means it looks brand new and smells brand new.
You get the full 7 yrs parts and labor warranty (mail in registration card). They even give you a free trigger cable for auto-on.

It produces more than 300 watts per channel into 8 ohms, and close to 600 Watts per channel into 4 ohms.

ATI make amps for the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, Outlaw Audio, and 1/2 dozen other companies. ATI also owns Theta Digital.


Unlike those Emotiva amps and most amps out there, this ATI amp is FULLY BALANCED from Input to Output. It also uses a "fuseless" technology, which means you will never have to worry about frying any fuses in your amp.

 

[spike99]

If you do in fact have upgraditis and must buy an amp, I recommend buying a stereo amp for your front Left & Right speakers since all the power requirement is here (and in the Subwoofer).

Your center speaker only gets the dialogue and the surrounds only get the ambience effects, which is probably no more than 10 watts of power per channel.

Check out this beast -The ATI AT3002 amp:

The asking price is $1,400 + shipping. The retail price is $2,500.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1307911246

Classic Audio Parts is an Authorized ATI dealer, and this amp is in perfect 10/10 condition, which means it looks brand new and smells brand new.
You get the full 7 yrs parts and labor warranty (mail in registration card). They even give you a free trigger cable for auto-on.

It produces more than 300 watts per channel into 8 ohms, and close to 600 Watts per channel into 4 ohms.

ATI make amps for the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, Outlaw Audio, and 1/2 dozen other companies. ATI also owns Theta Digital.


Unlike those Emotiva amps and most amps out there, this ATI amp is FULLY BALANCED from Input to Output. It also uses a "fuseless" technology, which means you will never have to worry about frying any fuses in your amp.

OK... I was on the border whether to buy or not... Due to "upgraditis" going around here... I'm going to buy an AMP... I suppose this is more of a want than a need

Emotiva was high on the list to buy, but I'll start checking other AMP's including ATI.... I understand that going for a 2 channel AMP is better... but might as well and get an AMP for all 5 channels...