Geohot Leaves the U.S.

[Entity]

Blame the cheater. Duh.

I know it's a crazy concept for some people, but it's called responsibility. He wasn't hacking the PS3 to add any functionality, it was hacked to give access to areas that were completely unnecessary, and were blocked for a reason. He was actively and purposefully doing something that he knew would be used maliciously. So do I blame him? Absolutely. Do I blame those who used what he gave them access to? Yep.

The you bought it, you own it philosophy is fine, until your tampering with things leads to negative impact on other people. His hacking of the PS3 directly led to negative experience for myself and hundreds of thousands of other people who also payed for the system and the games used on it. By your philosophy, I suppose we should allow smoking back in public buildings, after all...you bought the cigarettes you should be able to do whatever you want with them, even if it affects others. The big bad government shouldn't have gotten involved.

 

[Entity]

Hacked PS3's haven't been able to go online for almost a month now. So any hacks or cheats you are seeing on PSN are unrelated to the cracked PS3's discussed in this case.

I wouldn't know, since I had to stop playing all those games before then due to the huge influx of social rejects who used Geohots methods for the pure joy of ruining others gaming experiences.

 

[GranteedEV]

Quite frankly I don't see what makes the current generations of consoles so special. Hacking has been around since the beginning of time. I was like 6 years old when I first heard of a game genie.

Regarding pirating, every industry has had to deal with piracy since before I was born. Only then, it was called bootleg copies and people bought them unknowingly, not downloading willingly.

Quite frankly, my video game system is for my enjoyment. If I want to emulate and upscale PS2 games I own, or see what this hardware is capable of, who is sony to deny me? They're free to discourage it but I'm sick of companies parading around like they own my property. Taking away OtherOS? I don't use that crap, I don't pirate. But it pisses me the hell off that just because weaknesses their own software were exposed, that it's the hacker's fault.

What frustrates me is that 99% of video games today are garbage. Total. Utter. Garbage. They keep putting out garbage, and then they tell me it's piracy's fault no one is buying it. Puh lease. If people want to buy games, they buy the games out of their own concious. Counterstrike is one of the most pirated games ever... and it just so happens to be one of the best sellers of all time. The PS1 era involved every other system of people I knew being soldered to a modchip and yet final fantasy VII must have sold a copy for every PS1 - to people that had bootleg copies even!

Instead of being so worried about piracy how about sony stop giving a crap about what the homebrew community is doing and worrying about putting out crap I want to play.

Blame geohot all you want. If not him, it would have been someone else, 10 years after the death of the system when no one would have cared. I applaud him for reverse engineering a device as complex as the PS3... this is a genius at work. Is he a victim? Of course not. But nothing he did is some huge corporate crime. He's not selling bootleg videogames on modified consoles. Did he open things up for it? Sure. XBOX, PC, and Wii have been open to that sort of thing for a while now, and last I checked, they're doing fine.

 

[its phillip]

Quite frankly I don't see what makes the current generations of consoles so special. Hacking has been around since the beginning of time. I was like 6 years old when I first heard of a game genie.

To be fair, with a game genie you weren't doing online multiplayer and screwing over other people

I agree with pretty much everything else you said, with the exception of 99% of games being crap - there are plenty of crappy games, but there are just as many great games coming out as there were for the last 10 years.

I also hate those non-steam servers that let people with pirated copies of cs play...come on, the game is only $10! Of course, it was a free mod back in the day when I started, but if you don't wanna pay $10 for it you suck cuz it's worth it

 

[GranteedEV]

To be fair, with a game genie you weren't doing online multiplayer and screwing over other people

I guess I'm rather insensitive to online multiplayer. In fact I sort of resent it...

I agree with pretty much everything else you said, with the exception of 99% of games being crap - there are plenty of crappy games, but there are just as many great games coming out as there were for the last 10 years.

I would disagree.

Because gaming budgets have flown through the roof, it's virtually impossible for a well done game with a small budget to even make it to production these days. You need high production values, and that's dictated by the same first person shooters and war games with a hint of yearly updates of the same sports games.

That's what separates gaming from other industries - not the piracy, but rather the budgets. modern gaming needs huge budgets... any sense of an "indie scene" is not only discouraged but actively attacked - and that sort of comes right down to the same issues of hacking.

Many, many of my favorite games had total garbage budgets. Nowadays grandoise games like that would require unfathomable budgets to be produced - hence they simply aren't.

 

[jamie2112]

So let me get this straight....this whole thread is about some kid who hacked a PS3 and now is being sued by Sony.Correct? Ok its official,some of us have WAAAYYYYY to much time on our hands...with all thats going on in the world this just seems jr. high school to me.But I guess it makes for "interesting" commentary.Just my opinion after all.........

 

[its phillip]

I guess I'm rather insensitive to online multiplayer. In fact I sort of resent its overall impact on the industry.

I would disagree.

Because gaming budgets have flown through the roof, it's virtually impossible for a well done game with a small budget to even make it to production these days. You need high production values, and that's dictated by the same first person shooters and war games with a hint of yearly updates of the same sports games.

That's what separates gaming from other industries - not the piracy, but rather the budgets. modern gaming needs huge budgets... any sense of an "indie scene" is not only discouraged but actively attacked - and that sort of comes right down to the same issues of hacking.

Many, many of my favorite games had total garbage budgets. Nowadays grandoise games like that would require unfathomable budgets to be produced - hence they simply aren't.

Eh. I somewhat agree with your first point, in regards to the fact that plenty of games have nerfed single player story modes and focus 95% on the online multiplayer...but then you have games built for online, like cs, which would be boring as hell otherwise.

About the second - there are plenty of low-budget indie games that get stellar reviews and are decently cheap (Braid, Minecraft, etc). Most other games have "normal" budgets. The majority of games will not have the budget of a COD game (not that I even care about COD) or the next Madden (not that I care about those either).

 

[Entity]

Backwards compatibility didn't really bother me...I knew that it wouldn't matter to me when I purchased my PS3 from the first batch that weren't. I still have a near mint PS2 sitting in the bedroom if by some strange chance I want to go and play old games.

Games are definitely going down hill these days. I have these discussions about the complete lack of content with friends that still feel the need to go drop $60 on a game to get 7-10 hours of story line out of it. No thanks...I'll wait till it's 20 bucks.

There wouldn't have been any need to remove any Linux capability on the PS3 if losers wouldn't have purposely used that feature to try and further break into PS3 coding for no reason. If some other country chooses to land a nuke in the US...I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and say "Wow...maybe we should have had stronger security" I'm going to blame the guy doing the shooting.

You can sit around hacking your PS3 all you want...until those hacks, and all those other rejects who start using your published hacks starts messing with games that I paid to play.

 

[jinjuku]

Backwards compatibility didn't really bother me...I knew that it wouldn't matter to me when I purchased my PS3 from the first batch that weren't. I still have a near mint PS2 sitting in the bedroom if by some strange chance I want to go and play old games.

Oh, okay. So SCEA removing hardware emulation from the PS3 is fine since it doesn't affect YOU. LOL

But GeoHot making the 'OtherOS' feature viable again and SCEA's subsequent response is a problem.

That is the definition of Hypocrisy.

 

[Entity]

Nobody came to my house and disabled PS2 support on my PS3. I suspect nobody did it to yours either. You purchased it with the knowledge of what it would and wouldn't support.

I did purchase my PS3 with a labeled feature of being able to install another OS on it. Due to some little prick who thinks it's "cool" to use that feature to spend huge chunks of time pointlessly break into the PS3 software and then published the methods, I no longer have that ability. He didn't make anything "viable".

Those comparisons are far from any definition of hypocrisy. I suppose it's hard to see when your vision is clouded by all the fawning over some degenerate.

 

[jinjuku]

Nobody came to my house and disabled PS2 support on my PS3. I suspect nobody did it to yours either. You purchased it with the knowledge of what it would and wouldn't support.

I did purchase my PS3 with a labeled feature of being able to install another OS on it. Due to some little prick who thinks it's "cool" to use that feature to spend huge chunks of time pointlessly break into the PS3 software and then published the methods, I no longer have that ability. He didn't make anything "viable".

Those comparisons are far from any definition of hypocrisy. I suppose it's hard to see when your vision is clouded by all the fawning over some degenerate.

Not fawning over anyone or anything. My first computer was an Atari 800 XL. I believe I happen to have a long/historical view of things tech related and could only imagine that we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are technology wise if the Timex Sinclair, Atari XL's, C= 64's, 128, 128D, Apple II, III, IIC/E, Coco II/III, TRS80, Atari 2600, Coleco Vision, Odyssey, etc... were all locked down and hackers of the time threatened with lawsuites left and right.

The picture is bigger than you or me. The current environment of only 'licensing' anything media related will soon have me opting out. If I can't own it and do what I want with it legally then I won't participate. And when you find yourself in a bind because you no longer own your TV (HDCP, ICT) or your Audio (keyed music files, PAP, streaming only), don't own your BR titles (BR+, key revocation) it will fall on deaf ears. No one will speak up for those willing to lie down and accept the upcoming shafting that is going to be handed out.

All I know is there is now a DMCA exemption for jail breaking iPhones and a lot of people owe that young man a debt of gratitude. Sadly most people enjoying the fact that they actually own what they purchased have zero clue who made it all happen. This is helping MILLIONS of people.

 

[Ares]

I have no issue with someone wanting to backup their game saves to a USB or external HDD. Jin you hit the nail on the head when you said this issue is much bigger than us and I agree with that, Sony could careless if you decided to paint the case of the PS3, added decals, changed thermal paste or even added an aftermarket fan but when you start messing with their firmware, software, ETC.. that is an issue. While there are many legit homebrew users there are many more that have shadier intentions in mind, and if I bought it and own everything hardware,software and firmware of the PS3 I guess that would make the copyright law pointless for it and any other product I buy.

 

[jinjuku]

I have no issue with someone wanting to backup their game saves to a USB or external HDD. Jin you hit the nail on the head when you said this issue is much bigger than us and I agree with that, Sony could careless if you decided to paint the case of the PS3, added decals, changed thermal paste or even added an aftermarket fan but when you start messing with their firmware, software, ETC.. that is an issue. While there are many legit homebrew users there are many more that have shadier intentions in mind, and if I bought it and own everything hardware,software and firmware of the PS3 I guess that would make the copyright law pointless for it and any other product I buy.

IMO that particular copy of firmware is yours to do with as you see fit. Just like the content on a CD. As long as you are within the bounds of the law have at it.

Sony has predicated a eco-system that is subject to hacks/cracks/by-pass of users wanting to game the system (pun intended). No one said the market they are in with the PS3 would be without risks competitive or otherwise. They've been at this long enough to realize this has always been that way and will never change. I have very visceral reaction to suing someone for tantamount tinkering and re-enabling features that were stripped away. The government doesn't need to be in this business. I am STILL wondering what problems the DMCA solves for the average joe. I know what it has done for big business.

It's a Rose colored glasses wearing mindset if they thought otherwise. How about this:

Sony could offer a custom firmware that requires your consoles serial number so if you want it for homebrew you fore go their PSN. Enthusiasts could even setup their own version. The could even charge for it and work WITH the hacktivist community instead of against it.

 

[Entity]

I don't think anyone is against owning things you buy. I still buy CD's for that reason. My only iTunes purchases are made with gift cards I've been given..and even then it takes me over a year to ever use them because I only buy flavor of the month songs, never albums. So I perpetually have money sitting in my iTunes account.

As long as you are within the bounds of the law have at it.

Is it legal to hack a system, distribute the methods to the entire internet, cost a company income, disrupt the game play for hundreds of thousands of people? I don't know...but I don't think it should be.

I don't know if they've released all the legalese documents, but I haven't read that deeply in to it. I have a feeling the motives behind the lawsuit aren't about what he did for his own personal use on a machine not used online. It's more likely to be about dispersing the methods to the world for use in making online gaming unplayable. I'm sorry, but it's a huge understatement to call it tinkering when it was a complete break of the software security on a system that allows other people to completely change gaming experiences and lets them go so far as to be able to completely reset people's accounts for games. If you blatantly tell the world how to cost Sony and gaming companies revenue from people not wanting to use the system or the games, you deserve to be prosecuted. Again, the same can be said for his actions negatively impacting hundreds of thousands of other people. I can't stress enough, nobody gives 2 shits what you do with the machine as long as it's not being used for other malicious activities when you do it.

Comparing early computing/console days to anything current is ridiculous. I'd like to see this supposed long list of all these benefits that hackers have been providing us in the last 15 years.

 

[jinjuku]

Is it legal to hack a system, distribute the methods to the entire internet, cost a company income, disrupt the game play for hundreds of thousands of people? I don't know...but I don't think it should be.

I don't know if they've released all the legalese documents, but I haven't read that deeply in to it. I have a feeling the motives behind the lawsuit aren't about what he did for his own personal use on a machine not used online. It's more likely to be about dispersing the methods to the world for use in making online gaming unplayable. I'm sorry, but it's a huge understatement to call it tinkering when it was a complete break of the software security on a system that allows other people to completely change gaming experiences and lets them go so far as to be able to completely reset people's accounts for games. If you blatantly tell the world how to cost Sony and gaming companies revenue from people not wanting to use the system or the games, you deserve to be prosecuted. Again, the same can be said for his actions negatively impacting hundreds of thousands of other people. I can't stress enough, nobody gives 2 shits what you do with the machine as long as it's not being used for other malicious activities when you do it.

Comparing early computing/console days to anything current is ridiculous. I'd like to see this supposed long list of all these benefits that hackers have been providing us in the last 15 years.

That isn't big Governments problem, it's Sony's. Why the Government has to guarantee Sony a profit in the market place is beyond me.

If Sony's PSN is so vulnerable to upset then get and XBox 360 for pete's sake. MS seemed to have figured out how to protect their online portal. That's competition for you.

15 years? Try 30. If you are actually maintaining:

1. That I somehow have to show you what hacktivism has brought about and benefited technology at large.

2. That somehow you think hacktivism of the past 30+ years hasn't rendered any social benefits.

Well I can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person.

 

[Ares]

Sony could offer a custom firmware that requires your consoles serial number so if you want it for homebrew you fore go their PSN. Enthusiasts could even setup their own version. The could even charge for it and work WITH the hacktivist community instead of against it.

That could be something that could work but if you read many of the game forums you'll see a ton of posts many would like to hack their PS3 and stay connected to PSN. Sony had a mass banning not to long ago for users who where connected to PSN with a hacked PS3 something that MS has done as well. I have read that many(not all) feel that they are entitled to hack their console and still be provided by Sony the use of PSN.

So in short it's hard to come to terms with either side if they aren't willing to comprise on anything and by the looks of it neither side wishes to comprise and the only people who suffer from the stupidity of Sony and Geohot and others like him is the legit user.

 

[jinjuku]

That could be something that could work but if you read many of the game forums you'll see a ton of posts many would like to hack their PS3 and stay connected to PSN. Sony had a mass banning not to long ago for users who where connected to PSN with a hacked PS3 something that MS has done as well. I have read that many(not all) feel that they are entitled to hack their console and still be provided by Sony the use of PSN.

So in short it's hard to come to terms with either side if they aren't willing to comprise on anything and by the looks of it neither side wishes to comprise and the only people who suffer from the stupidity of Sony and Geohot and others like him is the legit user.

In the case of MS their online network is an opt in. It was never a guaranteed service when you purchased your console. That is a purchase of the XBox 360 doesn't entitle people to the Live! network anymore than buying a phone at Sears entitles you to phone service from AT&T.

I have zero problem with Sony/MS et al... performing a mass ban of consoles. The consoles still work as promised. You just lost your invite to the online community which brings me back to point: Offer a modder friendly firmware that allows them access to their console. They can participate OUTSIDE of Sony's ecosystem.

Not unfair and not unreasonable and not out of the question. If you get popped for pirating games you should face the courts like anyone else. Same as if you get caught driving drunk. Alcohol is fine when not in the hands of an abuser.

 

[Entity]

That isn't big Governments problem, it's Sony's. Why the Government has to guarantee Sony a profit in the market place is beyond me.

Who said anything about guaranteeing profit? Irrational much? I guess they should also not be stepping in for the other issues like defamation, monopolies, industrial sabotage, etc.

15 years? Try 30.

I said 15 because of some of the early benefits. Please, name 5 benefits provided to the average person in the last 10-15 years from the hacking of the security on a console. I'll wait... I started gaming on a Tandy 1000, with nearly every capable gaming system in between, yet I still never felt the need to hack a system to use it to grief people. Do you think these companies lock stuff out on software/hardware just to be pricks? It's usually done for a reason. Either it doesn't work well enough, or it's security related. An example being a feature you already complained about...the choice to stop the PS2 emulation on the newer PS3's. It was buggy and worked barely 50% of the time on the software versions. No secret Sony ninja's snuck into your living room at night and removed the ability. It was a production decision that was noted before anyone ever purchased the models that weren't backwards compatible. Get over it or go pony up the coin for one of the original PS3's or spend the $35 bucks for a PS2 that was intended to play the games. While we're at it, lets start some foot stomping about the loss of SACD support.

Offer a modder friendly firmware that allows them access to their console. They can participate OUTSIDE of Sony's ecosystem. Not unfair and not unreasonable and not out of the question.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Sony should invest time and money into a project for people who could not play nice with others to begin with? Really?

Well I can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person.

And I can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person who has yet provide ANY sort of benefit to the jailbreaking of the security of the PS3, all the while talking it up like Geohot is a savior to the nerd population, when in fact his jailbreaking has done nothing but cause grief for the normal online gamer.

Normally I don't get political online discussions, but inflammatory comments like:

The fact that you guys are swallowing Sony's machinations let me know we are truly forked.

Really, irk me. Like, somehow all that's wrong with the government today is because people don't believe the way that you believe. Bigotry much?

 

[Ares]

If your interested in the latest goings on in the case of Sony vs George Hotz or want to be brought up to speed without all the rumors but the truth on whats going on here's a link.

Sony Vs George Hotz

 

[jinjuku]

Who said anything about guaranteeing profit? Irrational much? I guess they should also not be stepping in for the other issues like defamation, monopolies, industrial sabotage, etc.

The difference is, and which the jail breaking of phones already proved, some acts are protected. What you listed are patently not.

Monopolies? do you REALLY want to go there?

I said 15 because of some of the early benefits. Please, name 5 benefits provided to the average person in the last 10-15 years from the hacking of the security on a console. I'll wait... I started gaming on a Tandy 1000, with nearly every capable gaming system in between, yet I still never felt the need to hack a system to use it to grief people. Do you think these companies lock stuff out on software/hardware just to be pricks? It's usually done for a reason. Either it doesn't work well enough, or it's security related. An example being a feature you already complained about...the choice to stop the PS2 emulation on the newer PS3's.

First off the switch to software emulation is simply an example of Sony making changes. And your right the software emulation didn't work where the hardware layer did. I understand why Sony made the decision they did. It also pissed off a lot of sonyphiles.

Second I said hacktivism (in general). You decided to narrow it down to console hacking.

Tandy 1000? You have my sympathies That was the IBM compatible that was not.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Sony should invest time and money into a project for people who could not play nice with others to begin with? Really?

And I can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person who has yet provide ANY sort of benefit to the jailbreaking of the security of the PS3, all the while talking it up like Geohot is a savior to the nerd population, when in fact his jailbreaking has done nothing but cause grief for the normal online gamer.

1. Cell computing clusters. The Airforce even has a 300 machine array (I believe it's 300)

2. SETI

3. Ability to backup your purchased media

4. Linux

5. DMCA amendment for cell phones (that's huge)

There I named 4 right off the bat related to the PS3

Normally I don't get political online discussions, but inflammatory comments
Really, irk me. Like, somehow all that's wrong with the government today is because people don't believe the way that you believe. Bigotry much?

People don't have to believe what you or I believe. I'm more than capable of backing up my view point. Acting like hacking or piracy isn't going to exist in this day and age is just head in the sand.

Deal with it. There are numerous reasons I don't own a gaming console. This is one of them. I'm not for voting down some ones fair use rights over the matter. We will see what the courts say.