HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer Review

[Ron Temple]

Paul,

You really need to get thicker skin. You really seem angry. And this tirade leaves me with a shaking head. I do appreciate all the work you put into the review, but you should have just left it at that. That is IMHO, regards

Why, he's offered honest insight without sugar coating, then gets treated like a pinata during Cinco de Mayo by some. I got a kick out his post.

 

[GranteedEV]

Paul,

You really need to get thicker skin. You really seem angry. And this tirade leaves me with a shaking head.

Um...his professionalism, journalistic integrity, and methodology have all been criticised by people who were shocked they didn't get a fluff review. Paul has every right to feel the way he does and honestly so would I. I can take valid criticism but not people talking **** about things that I put effort and honesty into.

 

[Matt34]

Paul,

You really need to get thicker skin. You really seem angry. And this tirade leaves me with a shaking head. I do appreciate all the work you put into the review, but you should have just left it at that. That is IMHO, regards

That's not a tirade, I can show you a tirade.

Maybe he shouldn't let the mob get to him but if you spend any amount of time on the forums, it does get under your skin, especially after putting in the time and dedication to do this type of testing. Paul just needs to remember that the cackling minority on the forums is just that and no matter what you do, you'll never please them all.

 

[Pyrrho]

CLIO is one of the most accurate measurement systems in the world. Paul's #s are dead on and agreed to by Rythmik and SVS when we presented their data to them.

2 meter is preferred if you can get far enough away from surfaces to get accurate data down to 10Hz. 1 meter works too, just subtract 6dB and you have your 2 meter data.

I think this pretty much shows who is likely to be off. Since Rythmik, SVS, and Audioholics all pretty well agree on the measurements, you are probably all three doing it right. The odd man out is Hsu, and so we can pretty well know that they are doing something wrong in their measurements.

One of the hallmarks of actual scientific testing is repeatability and confirmation by other people doing tests, and the results of this says good things about Rythmik, SVS, and Audioholics.

If everyone had different numbers, then those of us who were not there at any of the testing would have reason to wonder what was going on, but that is not the case, and given the actual facts, we have good reason to believe that Audioholics have accurately measured the Hsu subwoofer.

 

[gene]

I think this is a good article for people to re-read again:

Trading SPL for Extension

Hopefully this will help folks realize there are no free lunches. The HSU in 2port mode, EQ2, certainly did a great job of NOT trading SPL for extension.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think this is a good article for people to re-read again:

Trading SPL for Extension

Hopefully this will help folks realize there are no free lunches. The HSU in 2port mode, EQ2, certainly did a great job of NOT trading SPL for extension.

Moral of the story: you want extention AND SPL you need one of these:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ported-subwoofer-build-projects/23057-maelstrom-21-4-2100-gram-18-passive-radiators-16.html

 

[sharkman]

YUP. Indoors you get lots of room gain. Indoors with the mike even a couple of inches from the cone, you measure mostly the room influence. Most of what reaches your ears in the real world is reflected sound. Unfortunately, we don't want to measure the room, we want to measure the speaker, so I must drag my fat butt (apparently an angry butt) outside to get good data with a $5000 instrument (Clio). Then it gets challenged for being not like what Hsu measures with the cheapest of all available popular systems, LMS. LMS, not even set to maximum number of points, or high precision mode, or with the mike far enough away, or with the cabinet oriented in the position which will provide the greatest accuracy. WOW!! We get more bass than you! Sure you do. More you get, the more you $ell.

Then the forums rage with folks taking sides without having all the data, mush less sufficient experience. I may be a little angry, but frankly I am much more dissapointed. I remember one time spending 30 minutes in Frankfurt explaining to a dealer that if I can control the content of the power test signal, I can make that 500 Watt woofer fail with 100 Watts in or pass with 1000 watt signals. After a half hour of my time, he looks over to another salesman and says "500 Watts is 500 Watts". Should I be angry? Maybe, maybe not. Disappointed and feeling unappreciated for the effort put in, definitely. If I have so little expertise, why would Dr Hsu ask me to build drivers for him 10 years ago when I worked at American Speaker in San Fernando California? If there are differences in the numbers you need to ask why. But this is politics. Unless you guys follow the money, you will NEVER understand the why part.... This is a business guys.

If I can show you a curve at a low level that means I can make 20 Hz, and I neglect to mention it's not loud enough to give you 20-30 db of dynamic range at that frequency, am I a smart businessman for getting you a product that hits your pricepoint, or am I suckering you into buying an inferior product? One of my charges was to understand the design philosophy and intent in the product design. When I asked him those questions, the immediate and sole answer I got from Poh Hsu was "ROSEWOOD FOR $999". Guys, go figure it out. Here is your last clue...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulapollonio

You seem to have a VERY low opinion of Hsu Research, revealing what was said in a personal conversation, speaking of suckering in buyers at $999 and accusing them of massaging the data to get better sales.

I've talked to bass enthusiasts online and there seems to be some class snobbery towards less expensive subs, which is fine. They can think and buy whatever they want. But I wonder if this attitude is a part of your approach to this sub, regardless if you used to design for them or even attended a wedding in the family.

If the sub doesn't have equal output at or below 20Hz when compared to the other subs in the shootout, but costs hundreds less, you might prefer the more expensive models, but what about your readers who only have so many dollars to spend? Is it not a fair trade off to save some cash and receive a lesser product? Making a product for a given price point is simply the way things are in life. Reviewing such products in comparison to more expensive ones doesn't have to bring out the bass purist in you, does it?

I mean no offense, and we all have passions for this great hobby. Most of us envy you for getting to play with and test such great gear and I hope this experience hasn't been regretful for you.

 

[gene]

You seem to have a VERY low opinion of Hsu Research, revealing what was said in a personal conversation, speaking of suckering in buyers at $999 and accusing them of massaging the data to get better sales.

I've talked to bass enthusiasts online and there seems to be some class snobbery towards less expensive subs, which is fine. They can think and buy whatever they want. But I wonder if this attitude is a part of your approach to this sub, regardless if you used to design for them or even attended a wedding in the family.

If the sub doesn't have equal output at or below 20Hz when compared to the other subs in the shootout, but costs hundreds less, you might prefer the more expensive models, but what about your readers who only have so many dollars to spend? Is it not a fair trade off to save some cash and receive a lesser product? Making a product for a given price point is simply the way things are in life. Reviewing such products in comparison to more expensive ones doesn't have to bring out the bass purist in you, does it?

I mean no offense, and we all have passions for this great hobby. Most of us envy you for getting to play with and test such great gear and I hope this experience hasn't been regretful for you.

I'm honestly tired of all the complaints. I put Paul through a lot of grief to re-test this sub. He lost consultant jobs he could have been doing and put us as a priority to retest the HSU sub. Paul is an engineer and lacks the flare and grace of a marketing guy. I was a design engineer for 7+ years so I respect his honest opinion and unapologetic writing style. This type of reporting isn't allowed in print magazines but its welcome here since we are more focused on no-nonsense reporting.

That being said, the HSU is a great sub, the best sub we've tested at under $1k to be certain. You can quote me on that if you like too.

I won't be entertaining any additional attacks on Paul's writing style or the integrity of his measurements or our review on our forums any longer.

Please reserve such criticisms over at AVS. Mods please pay attention for this. Thank you.

 

[Pyrrho]

You seem to have a VERY low opinion of Hsu Research, revealing what was said in a personal conversation, speaking of suckering in buyers at $999 and accusing them of massaging the data to get better sales.

I've talked to bass enthusiasts online and there seems to be some class snobbery towards less expensive subs, which is fine. They can think and buy whatever they want. But I wonder if this attitude is a part of your approach to this sub, regardless if you used to design for them or even attended a wedding in the family.

If the sub doesn't have equal output at or below 20Hz when compared to the other subs in the shootout, but costs hundreds less, you might prefer the more expensive models, but what about your readers who only have so many dollars to spend? Is it not a fair trade off to save some cash and receive a lesser product? Making a product for a given price point is simply the way things are in life. Reviewing such products in comparison to more expensive ones doesn't have to bring out the bass purist in you, does it?

I mean no offense, and we all have passions for this great hobby. Most of us envy you for getting to play with and test such great gear and I hope this experience hasn't been regretful for you.

He wrote of their subwoofer:

it was hands down, the “BEST BUY” of the group of subs we compared. HSU demonstrated strong engineering, excellent integration of the sub with the power amp and cabinet, and a surprising amount of output from the system given the relatively low output capacity of the amplifier used. The VTF-15H is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget.​

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/vtf-15h

And you then say he has a low opinion of Hsu? Are you freaking kidding? What part of "best buy" do you not understand? What part of "strong engineering" do you not understand? What part of "The VTF-15H is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget" do you not understand? Why don't you go back and reread the review, and pay attention to what it actually says.

He has every right to be angry at the abuse that has unjustly been hurled at him, yet he is showing remarkable restraint in his responses to ridiculous posts against him.

Basically, he has said it is a great subwoofer for the money. How the hell do you interpret that as a negative review?

The fact that it is not the best subwoofer that money can buy is not disrespectful of Hsu subwoofers. Indeed, if it were the best that money can buy, then that would mean that Hsu's more expensive subwoofer would necessarily be a rip-off.

He measured its performance, and found it to be great for the money, but not as good as much more expensive subwoofers. Why is that terribly surprising to anyone?

 

[billy p]

He wrote of their subwoofer:

it was hands down, the “BEST BUY” of the group of subs we compared. HSU demonstrated strong engineering, excellent integration of the sub with the power amp and cabinet, and a surprising amount of output from the system given the relatively low output capacity of the amplifier used. The VTF-15H is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget.​

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/vtf-15h

And you then say he has a low opinion of Hsu? Are you freaking kidding? What part of "best buy" do you not understand? What part of "strong engineering" do you not understand? What part of "The VTF-15H is an excellent example of what can be done when you attempt to squeeze the last bit of performance from a modest budget" do you not understand? Why don't you go back and reread the review, and pay attention to what it actually says.

He has every right to be angry at the abuse that has unjustly been hurled at him, yet he is showing remarkable restraint in his responses to ridiculous posts against him.

Basically, he has said it is a great subwoofer for the money. How the hell do you interpret that as a negative review?

The fact that it is not the best subwoofer that money can buy is not disrespectful of Hsu subwoofers. Indeed, if it were the best that money can buy, then that would mean that Hsu's more expensive subwoofer would necessarily be a rip-off.

He measured its performance, and found it to be great for the money, but not as good as much more expensive subwoofers. Why is that terribly surprising to anyone?

You should be following along over Avs. Gene, is 100% correct regarding what should be tolerated here(I'd just ban them...) but no control at Avs and they let them use that platform to sound off...

wow that guy went red prudy quick..lol

 

[GranteedEV]

Is it not a fair trade off to save some cash and receive a lesser product? Making a product for a given price point is simply the way things are in life.

Yes, it is. That's what his entire review revolved around if you bothered to read it, where he seemingly sided with HSU's approach of best-for-dollar over best-cost-no-object!

The re-review was for the same people complaining that the HSU does in fact have 20hz extention.

And they basically got shut down by cold hard measurements on a warm sunny day in the middle of february (wtf? I'd love to live there)

 

[templemaners]

I think I've heard about enough with this HSU sub. I am glad for the supplemental review because it answered some questions I had from the first review (the effects of the port/EQ settings). But it's done now. The VTF-15H is what it is. The only thing that would have made the supplemental better is if it was sponsored by Dennis Green.

Time to move on and get Funky.

 

[TLS Guy]

Paul,

You really need to get thicker skin. You really seem angry. And this tirade leaves me with a shaking head. I do appreciate all the work you put into the review, but you should have just left it at that. That is IMHO, regards

Everyone has a finite tolerance for stupid people. Paul's tolerance probably exceeds mine.

 

[Unobtainium]

Paul and Gene,

I really feel that you guys went above and beyond for the sake of audio buffs everywhere. I really appreciate it.
The additional review and measurements were in depth and anything but defensive.
I have such a hard time with the comments that are questioning the accurate data put forth by Paul, based on measurements the company claims.
Who has the ability to profit off of measurements? What would AH stand to gain by skewing the data?
What would the company stand to gain?
The blind following is hard to take when the very same people criticize companies like Paradigm for making ambitious claims. The sub reviewed twice remains a good value, even the "best" value yet. It is not however able to produce the lowest frequencies with the quality nor quantity, of some of the more expensive subs. As stated earlier, this should come as no surprise.
Thanks again for the great reviews gentlemen.

 

[ShaunH]

Everyone has a finite tolerance for stupid people. Paul's tolerance probably exceeds mine.

Mine as well. This entire train wreck seems rather unnecessary. I'm glad results where more in line or more correct. But from where I stand the old review and the old pros and cons still stand. The SVS still has as much more or more output.. And yes is still more expensive.

I just hope this will shut up everyone from now on. Anymore arguing would just drag everyone down again. HSU had the most bang for the buck what more do people want?

Also I hope we see more of Paul's reviews. I like his honest approach. Its refreshing.

Also something to keep in mind for anyone who thinks the SVS PB12-Plus DSP is not the real deal. The Plus driver (v5) is heavily based on the Ultra 13 woofer and has the new DSP amp behind it. So I don't doubt for a second it could snag an award. And no one just gave SVS anything they earned it. If anything more attention should be going to SVS for making such a good sub woofer. I feel like in a way this hole mess stole the other companies positive press.

 

[Wayde Robson]

Champion Review!

 

[gene]

What is very clear to me here is that consumers claim they want critical product reviews that give full disclosure of performance. I think some consumers want this until they actually own the product. Once they own said product, they instead want a warm and fuzzy review focusing on product positives to reassure them their product purchasing decision was the right one.

Heck I own a 2007 Acura TL Type S. I really like the car. I read many negatives about the car (large turn circle, front wheel drive, etc). I kinda glossed over the negatives when I bought the car but I never questioned the integrity of the reviews. Years later of using my car, I realize my wifes mini-van is easier to park and make u-turns than my car Yet, I still really like my car and appreciate the criticism that was written in the various reviews.

 

[Matt34]

What is very clear to me here is that consumers claim they want critical product reviews that give full disclosure of performance. I think some consumers want this until they actually own the product. Once they own said product, they instead want a warm and fuzzy review focusing on product positives to reassure them their product purchasing decision was the right one.

I was going to write something very similar to this.

The whole ordeal is so ridiculous.

 

[Ares]

I have just been kicking back watching this whole thing here, AVS and at HSU forums eating popcorn. To Gene and the gang your reviews are one of the main reasons I joined here so don't change a thing, I like Fluff with peanut butter but not with reviews. Paul's review was straight to the point and no BS which I like, the personal attacks on him was unnecessary and remember their just p***** because they bought it before the review came out. So keep up the good work and I look forward to other Factual reviews in the future.

P.S. Wasn't there someone from HSU here with the Paul what's his.......name?

 

[gajenn]

I want to thank the guys for the subjective and honest reviews. I bought an emotiva ultra 12 after the review came out, and look forward to upgrading when budget allows. Keep the good work up folks,there's lots of us who don't spam negative posts who appreciate the time u spent helping others in this great hobby...