gun question: M4 5.56 or .22lr

[mike c]

i live in the Philippines where the rules are a bit different.
pistols are easier to get than rifles ...
one needs to join a gun club (paperwork loophole) to get pistols with calibers higher than 9mm

shotguns are ok, but automatic weapons are 'only' for the armed forces ...

that's why i never see how much 5.56 ammunition is in the gunstores (it's because i haven't gone to the 'less than legit' gunstores yet)

-0-

figured it wouldn't be as fun to spray ammunition that costs 5x as much. hence the predicament
on that note, i'd love a walther p22 (but that's another battle with the wife)

 

[itschris]

Fully automatic rifles are a no-no here too. You have to have a Class 3 but they're hard to come by for a full auto.

My AR is semi-auto like pretty much every assault rifle and handgun. Still, if you can... get the 556/223 and just get a 22LR bolt kit for it.

Here's one of my rigs I took out Saturday. I had a horrible day at the range. I just couldn't hit anything. I was trying to practice my proficiency with just the irons so I left all the optics at home. Not as fun when you don't have a brightly lit reticle pointing the way!

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Fully automatic rifles are a no-no here too. You have to have a Class 3 but they're hard to come by for a full auto.

My AR is semi-auto like pretty much every assault rifle and handgun. Still, if you can... get the 556/223 and just get a 22LR bolt kit for it.

Here's one of my rigs I took out Saturday. I had a horrible day at the range. I just couldn't hit anything. I was trying to practice my proficiency with just the irons so I left all the optics at home. Not as fun when you don't have a brightly lit reticle pointing the way!

The Class III license itself isn't hard to come by, but the weapons are expensive. The whole deal that gets people into confusion about the class III license is the Trust. But, it's really not that hard, you just need a predecessor to the weapon if you die (so you setup a company with a trustee and your done - cost a friend 300 bucks to do, a fraction of what the full auto actually cost).

The trouble I had the with the full auto is that I carry a gun every day, but if I had to protect myself I just don't see myself shooting a full auto assault rifle....or having to sit there defending that in a case. Like, if I kill a burgler with a semi-auto versus spray him with a full auto, I just wonder what the jury would think. I know there are stories of home invasions that ended with the burgler killed by a full auto and it was fine, but, still....I always wondered about that. I guess it's just my system. House keys, car keys, wallet, tuck gun in my waist. All that stuff just stays with me, so what would I do with a full auto other than play at the range (which we can rent anyways). Knowwhatimean?

Nice rifle setup btw! That's how I have mine.

 

[Warpdrv]

What is that rifle itchris...? very nice....

Pictures and no make & model ? Whats up with that...

 

[itschris]

What is that rifle itchris...? very nice....

Pictures and no make & model ? Whats up with that...

All right... you asked for it...

S&W M&P AR15
Troy battlesights
Troy free float continous rail
Magpul CTR stock (milspec)
Tango Down forward grip
Magpul ASAP sling mount
Timney trigger group
Young Match Grade bold group
Magpul trigger guard

I only shoot PMAGS.

The handgun is a Spingfield Armory XD40 .40 cal ported match grade barrel. I put a new solid one piece guide rod in it... I hate the crappy two piece units that come with XD's and Glocks.


The bag is a Voodoo Tactical AR bag. It's easily the best value of any case I've seen. You can get it for $50 or $60 online. I paid a bit more them at my local shop, but I don't mind supporting them. I've seen and tried a lot of cases, and I find I like this one the best for a tactical bag. For the money, you really can't beat it. Each of the two pouches can hold 4 PMags comfortably. The center pouch holds my binoculars. You can see the smaller compartment had to handgun pouches and the larger rifle compartment has a padded divider to securely hold two rifles.

I usually keep both rifles, 10 total mags, a handgun with 3 mags, in that bag as my "bug out" bag, but it's my go to bag for the range.
For what you see... that it!

 

[itschris]

The Class III license itself isn't hard to come by, but the weapons are expensive. The whole deal that gets people into confusion about the class III license is the Trust. But, it's really not that hard, you just need a predecessor to the weapon if you die (so you setup a company with a trustee and your done - cost a friend 300 bucks to do, a fraction of what the full auto actually cost).

The trouble I had the with the full auto is that I carry a gun every day, but if I had to protect myself I just don't see myself shooting a full auto assault rifle....or having to sit there defending that in a case. Like, if I kill a burgler with a semi-auto versus spray him with a full auto, I just wonder what the jury would think. I know there are stories of home invasions that ended with the burgler killed by a full auto and it was fine, but, still....I always wondered about that. I guess it's just my system. House keys, car keys, wallet, tuck gun in my waist. All that stuff just stays with me, so what would I do with a full auto other than play at the range (which we can rent anyways). Knowwhatimean?

Nice rifle setup btw! That's how I have mine.

Thanks! You and I are on the exact same page. I'm the same way. There's no way I'd ever use a full auto for home defense. Why put yourself in that position... that cloud of suspicion? I'm a gun guy, but even I believe there should be limits on what we can have and what someone should have to do to get, keep, and carry weapons. It's far too easy imho.

 

[digicidal]

I have an AR-15 as well - not as nice as yours... it was a 'bargain basement' purchase a decade ago when I was worried about them banning the "black rifle" altogether. (It's a Bushmaster 16" with the Type2 carry handle... I know, I know... but it was cheap and I can hit anything at less than 200yrd without trying... ) Not nearly as nice as your itschris.

I agree with Midnight on the full-auto - although I'm working on setting up my trust currently - not for the full-auto aspect of the class III, but for the right to own supressors. And no - I'm not "planning something" - but there are many cases where I would definitely prefer to have at least some of my plinking sessions be much, much quieter. It's totally irritating to me that supressors are lumped in with full-autos and explosive devices.

I mean, I get the reasoning behind them - but seriously. There are almost no cases where someone has used a firearm against another person - where simply because everyone could hear the report, further death/injury were averted. Most of the time the violence is over by hours if not days before there are police involved... even in the more press-covered instances like the tragedy in Arizona recently.

On the other hand, the numbers of ranchers, hobbyists, etc... that would like to further preserve their hearing and perhaps take care of some 'nuisances' in their back yard without disturbing their neighbors or scaring their livestock has got to be numbered in the hundreds of thousands at least.

Oh well - play by the rules and stay out of jail - so I'm going through the paperwork and gettting everything setup now.

Oh and in answer to the originally posted question - why limit yourself... get both. I've got (in addition to the AR) 2 Ruger 10/22's - one "folder" and one match configured, SigPro 40 (234), and something I'm forgetting at the moment.

 

[jp_over]

with christmas coming up, i won't be able to buy this before that ... but i'd like to get some opinions ... and sounding off helps me decide

M4 5.56

Pros
-real version

Cons
-recoil
-expensive ammo
-loud
-more dangerous due to penetration

M4 .22lr

Pros
-cheap ammo
-virtually no recoil
-less loud
-the "looks" without the price tag

Cons
-needs headshots for any kill (but i'm not really going to battle or fighting zombies)
-non full auto
-reviews point to less than perfect build quality

other option would be the .22lr GSG mp5 (HK MP5)

cons:
-there's a made in china one that takes "real" 9mm's
-stock model has fixed stock and not the telescopic stock

Mike,

Did you ever make a decision? If it's available in your area the Ruger 10/22 is a great little rifle and a used one likely costs close to a quality .22LR conversion kit. It's another way to have "both."

I've carried 5.56 rifles for many, many years (to include in combat before I became a chaplain) and even owned a Bushmaster (civilian version) for a little bit but but sold it to my newphew. I find 5.56 a bit loud for plinking but I do plan on getting a bolt action model for varmint (coyote) hunting soon. Just my .02.

 

[Warpdrv]

I agree, I have an older Ruger 10/22 and its a really fun little toy...

You can mod it anyway you want and there are lots of aftermarket stocks and parts for them.... I have put thousands and thousands of rounds through the dam thing and its like an AK 47, just doesn't stop shooting - cleaned or not cleaned.... Not that I suggest you don't clean your weapons...

My buddies call it a mini taliban gun...

30 round banana clips, and the back to back 10 round clips (20 rounds)

 

[Code-Red]

Kinda coming into this a little late but my wife are I are both in the Army National Guard and kinda passionate about our firearms. We setup scenarios and will do drill runs and such and I wanted to practice with an AR like our M4's but something a little cheaper to buy and use.

Settled on Smith and Wessons M&P15-22 MOE rifel with the Magpul sights, stock, and grip. Bought mine for $550 and had a 1000 rounds thrown in. Paid a little over $600 but was way worth it. We both have one now and neither of ours has had any issues in the past year...

 

[Warpdrv]

That is an awesome gun Code-Red.....

I think I may have to get me one of those.... sweet...

 

[Tarub]

i live in the Philippines where the rules are a bit different.
pistols are easier to get than rifles ...
one needs to join a gun club (paperwork loophole) to get pistols with calibers higher than 9mm

shotguns are ok, but automatic weapons are 'only' for the armed forces ...

that's why i never see how much 5.56 ammunition is in the gunstores (it's because i haven't gone to the 'less than legit' gunstores yet)

Mike, I know where to get high powered assault rifles and ammunitions for cheap in the Philippines. In Ampatuan, Maguindanao, RP. If you want 50 cal MG or RPG...they have it there too. Let me know if you are interested.

 

[itschris]

There isn't anything wrong at all with a Bushmaster. I consider that right there with other higher tier rifles. I think Noveske and Knights are the tops.

I have to say I'm totally pleased with my M&P. The thing is a tac-driver in the right hands.

I'm not opposed to suppessors... I just want to keep it difficult to get your hands on it and I think it's okay that it's registered. I have a Surefire for my Knights M4 and it's awsome. In fact, I have no problem with a national registery for all handguns and rifles. I know there's a ton of folks who would lose their mind, but our cars are registered. What's the big deal if you're not doing anything wrong? I think there are far too many CCW holders who are actually disqualified from carrying, but there's not a central consolidated mechanism to enforce it consistently and accurately. You can argue that these sorts of rules and restrictions only hurt law abiding citizens, but at least you can control what happens once those cross that line.

Take a trip to any gun range and you'll be amazed, nervous, and/or terrified how 4 out of every 5 people there even have a gun. I swear that most shouldn't be trusted with a plastic spork let alone a gun. There should be mandatory classes and training, and continuing review and certification to maintain your right to have one.... IMHO... as a mutliple gun and rifle owner who's been licensed to carry for 15 years.

I have an AR-15 as well - not as nice as yours... it was a 'bargain basement' purchase a decade ago when I was worried about them banning the "black rifle" altogether. (It's a Bushmaster 16" with the Type2 carry handle... I know, I know... but it was cheap and I can hit anything at less than 200yrd without trying... ) Not nearly as nice as your itschris.

I agree with Midnight on the full-auto - although I'm working on setting up my trust currently - not for the full-auto aspect of the class III, but for the right to own supressors. And no - I'm not "planning something" - but there are many cases where I would definitely prefer to have at least some of my plinking sessions be much, much quieter. It's totally irritating to me that supressors are lumped in with full-autos and explosive devices.

I mean, I get the reasoning behind them - but seriously. There are almost no cases where someone has used a firearm against another person - where simply because everyone could hear the report, further death/injury were averted. Most of the time the violence is over by hours if not days before there are police involved... even in the more press-covered instances like the tragedy in Arizona recently.

On the other hand, the numbers of ranchers, hobbyists, etc... that would like to further preserve their hearing and perhaps take care of some 'nuisances' in their back yard without disturbing their neighbors or scaring their livestock has got to be numbered in the hundreds of thousands at least.

Oh well - play by the rules and stay out of jail - so I'm going through the paperwork and gettting everything setup now.

Oh and in answer to the originally posted question - why limit yourself... get both. I've got (in addition to the AR) 2 Ruger 10/22's - one "folder" and one match configured, SigPro 40 (234), and something I'm forgetting at the moment.

 

[mike c]

Mike, I know where to get high powered assault rifles and ammunitions for cheap in the Philippines. In Ampatuan, Maguindanao, RP. If you want 50 cal MG or RPG...they have it there too. Let me know if you are interested.

lol. now i'm not sure if you're joking or not

Mike,

Did you ever make a decision? If it's available in your area the Ruger 10/22 is a great little rifle and a used one likely costs close to a quality .22LR conversion kit. It's another way to have "both."

I've carried 5.56 rifles for many, many years (to include in combat before I became a chaplain) and even owned a Bushmaster (civilian version) for a little bit but but sold it to my newphew. I find 5.56 a bit loud for plinking but I do plan on getting a bolt action model for varmint (coyote) hunting soon. Just my .02.

i haven't yet (but am leaning towards the m4 .22lr version and then getting a walther p22 afterwards).

i'm just about to win the battle against the wife for getting a rifle in the first place.

 

[mike c]

half a step forward

managed to see the rifles, they are indeed m-16's.

but they look too much like vietnam era m-16's to me.

told my friend i wanted to buy his M-16 (if it was still available, his friend called dibs on it, but has been months out on paying or transferring papers to his name)

this one is his:

he has the "bull barrel" (modified to have a thicker barrel (he said for accuracy even when shooting hot)

here's a shot of the tip

 

[itschris]

Hey Mike, I really don't think those are M16's, they are AR15's. An M16 is the military designation and will either come in Full Auto or Burst Fire. I can't see that well in the pic, but I'm pretty certain those are standard semi-auto.

I think what you don't like about them... the "Vietnam" era look, is the carry handle and plastic handgards. If you look back at the pics of my rifle, my receiver is a flattop that integrates into my rails. That way you can mount whatever you want, whereever you want. The handguards are an easy fix. You just buy a rail from Troy, Daniel Defense, etc. The carry handle is a different story. Some are detachable, some are not. If you want a carry handle, I'd try to find one that's detachable so that when removed, you have a flattop railed receiver for mounting optics.

Don't get too caught up in the bull barrel thing. I've ripped rounds out of my rifles left and right non-stop and still hit targets where I intended. If you were shooting auto or just doing non-stop firing mag after mag after mag with no cooling time, then yeah, it may make some difference, but the added weight of the barrel is noticiable and not worth it in my opinion, nor is the added cost. The 'tip" as you refer to it is the flash hider or muzzle brake. A lot of folks replace the standard A2 Flash Hider with either an aftermarket flash hider or aftermarket muzzle brake. I believe the one in your pic is an ASI Maxi-Brake. The design is comes under a couple of different names though I think. The difference is that a flash hider, like the standard A2 part that comes with the rifle is designed to reduce your signature when shooting. You'd be amazed at the amount of flash that comes out of your barrel. You could be spotted for miles without one. A muzzle brake is designed to lesson the recoil, like a compensator or porting on a handgun. They do this to varyiing degrees all at the expense of hiding your flash. For me, I don't feel the recoil of an AR15 is difficult to handle at all. I'd rather have a reduced signature than a tad less recoil... but it's certainly a decision each person can make on their own. There's lot of options for each. The standard A2 hider seems to work just as well as most of the expensive aftermarket options though most of those look cooler.

 

[mike c]

i think these can do Full Auto ... they weren't exactly "legal" for civilians ... but made so through 'loose firearm amnesty'.
but should there have been "single" "semi auto" and "full auto" option?

i actually like the carry handle ... but the triangular handguard is what really reminds me of vietnam

here's a close up of the "vietnams"

here's a close up of the nicer one (ignore the Colt markings, it's not a real Colt - them local gunsmiths are professional bootleggers)

at this point, i only care about the looks and not really the convenience of carrying it i doubt i would spend money on a scope though. but if i did get the nicer one, i'd like a nicer handguard. otherwise, i'd have to spend some more for a real M4.

i'm not gonna be getting the telescopic stock that i like (since there's no sense in using a telescopic stock for a full length barrel)

the reason i'm compromising on this one is because with this option, i can squeak in a 1911 pistol in the budget

 

[dkane360]

I know someone who just bought a Smith and Wesson MP 15-22. It's pretty awesome, I'll take some pics if you want. I think we're going to the range tomorrow if you want a video or something

 

[mike c]

I know someone who just bought a Smith and Wesson MP 15-22. It's pretty awesome, I'll take some pics if you want. I think we're going to the range tomorrow if you want a video or something

i don't think the .22 calibres are still in the running (but that looks like a mean looking gun, nice design and all)

but ever since that youtube video of the lawyer being shot multiple times by a .22, i kinda lost interest in .22 calibre weapons (not that i'd be using it to kill anyone)

 

[dkane360]

i don't think the .22 calibres are still in the running (but that looks like a mean looking gun, nice design and all)

but ever since that youtube video of the lawyer being shot multiple times by a .22, i kinda lost interest in .22 calibre weapons (not that i'd be using it to kill anyone)

same. I wouldnt pick it for myself, but he wanted something nice looking that was cheap to shoot. 4 cents a round aint too shabby