What is wrong here?

[KEW]

I was playing my EMP E41B's at a pretty good volume and noticed that the right channel sounded "shouty". I turned down the volume and listened very closely and the sound was fine (I wanted to rule out a poor recording, bad connection, or permanent damage to the amp or speakers).

So, is there a way to determine if this was my amp clipping or if I was over-driving the speakers?

This is from the manual:

This tweeter uses liquid cooling to allow greater power handling. To protect the tweeter against being over driven, a polyswitch (a current limiting device) is incorporated in the crossover network.

I had previously contacted EMP and asked what the maximum SPL is for these speakers and they said it was 103dB or better. I don't think I was that loud.

Speaker efficiency is 86dB and 8 Ohms nominal.
Amplifier is UPA-2.

Thanks!

 

[3db]

I was playing my EMP E41B's at a pretty good volume and noticed that the right channel sounded "shouty". I turned down the volume and listened very closely and the sound was fine (I wanted to rule out a poor recording, bad connection, or permanent damage to the amp or speakers).

So, is there a way to determine if this was my amp clipping or if I was over-driving the speakers?

This is from the manual:


I had previously contacted EMP and asked what the maximum SPL is for these speakers and they said it was 103dB or better. I don't think I was that loud.

Speaker efficiency is 86dB and 8 Ohms nominal.
Amplifier is UPA-2.

Thanks!

You'll be surprised how "unloud" a clean signal and non distorting speaker can be even when playing at very loud volume levels. The fact that your speaker sounded find after turning it down can rule out the recording. I'm guessing that protection circuit was being activated during that loud play. If you have an SPL level meter, measure the intensity quickly before turning it down. I'm guessing you were overdriving your speakers.

 

[highfigh]

You'll be surprised how "unloud" a clean signal and non distorting speaker can be even when playing at very loud volume levels. The fact that your speaker sounded find after turning it down can rule out the recording. I'm guessing that protection circuit was being activated during that loud play. If you have an SPL level meter, measure the intensity quickly before turning it down. I'm guessing you were overdriving your speakers.

Protection circuits usually cause the signal to be interrupted, not distorted.

 

[highfigh]

I was playing my EMP E41B's at a pretty good volume and noticed that the right channel sounded "shouty". I turned down the volume and listened very closely and the sound was fine (I wanted to rule out a poor recording, bad connection, or permanent damage to the amp or speakers).

So, is there a way to determine if this was my amp clipping or if I was over-driving the speakers?

This is from the manual:


I had previously contacted EMP and asked what the maximum SPL is for these speakers and they said it was 103dB or better. I don't think I was that loud.

Speaker efficiency is 86dB and 8 Ohms nominal.
Amplifier is UPA-2.

Thanks!

If you have hard, reflective surfaces near the right speaker but not the left, it may be that the reflections were strong enough that they were more audible from that channel. Multiple reflections that are close together will cause this kind of thing.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

So, is there a way to determine if this was my amp clipping or if I was over-driving the speakers?
...

There is a third possibility. Speakers, as a rule, distort more the louder they play. In some cases, this is quite noticeable, though not in all cases.

Some years ago, I had a pair of Optimus T-200 speakers, and bought some Heybrook HB-2 speakers (the version made in the early-mid 1980's). At low volumes, they sounded similar, but as I turned up the volume, the Optimus speakers seemed to gradually add more and more distortion. So at reasonably loud levels, the Heybrook speakers sounded much better. But at a little higher volume, the Heybrook woofers "bottomed out" (i.e., were overdriven), and then the Optimus T-200 sounded better at that level. The point of the story, in this case, is that higher levels of distortion at higher volumes is sometimes a natural part of the sound that the speaker makes, and does not necessarily mean that it is being overdriven.

But among your two choices, judging from the specifications for each, it is more likely that the speaker is being overdriven than that the amplifier is clipping.

 

[Pyrrho]

If you have hard, reflective surfaces near the right speaker but not the left, it may be that the reflections were strong enough that they were more audible from that channel. Multiple reflections that are close together will cause this kind of thing.

A way to check this is to switch the speakers with each other (i.e., put the right speaker in the left position, and the left speaker in the right position, switching the wires as well), and run the experiment again. If the distortion stays with the speaker, then it is the speaker that distorts at that volume. If the distortion does not stay with the speaker, then it could have to do with the position, the amplifier, the sound level of that channel (as stereo recordings typically are not precisely the same level in both speakers) so that that channel reaches the limits of the speaker first, etc.

 

[GranteedEV]

The speakers are rated at 100 watts, and the UPA-2 is capable of 125 wpc. They seem reasonably matched... the fact it was just one of the speakers makes it sound like

-you've got the amp hooked up to your preamp or maybe your computer sound card via some sort of 3mm to RCA converter in which case that may be what's clipping, not the amp or speakers.

Then again i have no idea what's actually going on

 

[3db]

Protection circuits usually cause the signal to be interrupted, not distorted.

It depends on the implementation. NADs soft clipping doesn't interupt the sound as an example.

 

[KEW]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas!

You'll be surprised how "unloud" a clean signal and non distorting speaker can be even when playing at very loud volume levels. The fact that your speaker sounded find after turning it down can rule out the recording. I'm guessing that protection circuit was being activated during that loud play. If you have an SPL level meter, measure the intensity quickly before turning it down. I'm guessing you were overdriving your speakers.

I checked and using "fast" response and "C" weighting, I am hitting 96-97dB. Louder than I thought, as you suggested it might be! I have them in a 4500 cu. ft. room and measured the SPL at about 8 feet away, so I may have been getting close to their limits.

 

[KEW]

If you have hard, reflective surfaces near the right speaker but not the left, it may be that the reflections were strong enough that they were more audible from that channel. Multiple reflections that are close together will cause this kind of thing.

I hadn't thought of that, but I'm good on this count.

 

[KEW]

There is a third possibility. Speakers, as a rule, distort more the louder they play. In some cases, this is quite noticeable, though not in all cases.

Some years ago, I had a pair of Optimus T-200 speakers, and bought some Heybrook HB-2 speakers (the version made in the early-mid 1980's). At low volumes, they sounded similar, but as I turned up the volume, the Optimus speakers seemed to gradually add more and more distortion. So at reasonably loud levels, the Heybrook speakers sounded much better. But at a little higher volume, the Heybrook woofers "bottomed out" (i.e., were overdriven), and then the Optimus T-200 sounded better at that level. The point of the story, in this case, is that higher levels of distortion at higher volumes is sometimes a natural part of the sound that the speaker makes, and does not necessarily mean that it is being overdriven.

But among your two choices, judging from the specifications for each, it is more likely that the speaker is being overdriven than that the amplifier is clipping.

I think this is probably the situation. I don't think these little guys were ever intended to be used in a large room and pushed as hard as I was pushing them. They sure do a great job until they reach that limit!

 

[GranteedEV]

According to the magical internet spl calculator you should be pumping around only 30-40 watts into them to get that at that distance without even factoring in room gain (which I wouldn`t, in that huge room).

 

[KEW]

A way to check this is to switch the speakers with each other (i.e., put the right speaker in the left position, and the left speaker in the right position, switching the wires as well), and run the experiment again. If the distortion stays with the speaker, then it is the speaker that distorts at that volume. If the distortion does not stay with the speaker, then it could have to do with the position, the amplifier, the sound level of that channel (as stereo recordings typically are not precisely the same level in both speakers) so that that channel reaches the limits of the speaker first, etc.

The recording I was listening to clearly had heavier content in the right channel.

 

[KEW]

The speakers are rated at 100 watts, and the UPA-2 is capable of 125 wpc. They seem reasonably matched... the fact it was just one of the speakers makes it sound like

-you've got the amp hooked up to your preamp or maybe your computer sound card via some sort of 3mm to RCA converter in which case that may be what's clipping, not the amp or speakers.

Then again i have no idea what's actually going on

Thanks, but it is all RCA connections - CD player to pre-amp (with crossovers) to amp to speakers.

 

[GranteedEV]

Thanks, but it is all RCA connections - CD player to pre-amp (with crossovers) to amp to speakers.

er, i didn't mean the converted would clip, i meant the sound card might have.

Where do you have the UPA-2 gain set? If the gain is too low, some brands' preamps do clip, like yamahas from what i've read.

 

[KEW]

According to the magical internet spl calculator you should be pumping around only 30-40 watts into them to get that at that distance without even factoring in room gain (which I wouldn`t, in that huge room).

Thanks for running those calc's. I always wondered.

I did have a high pass filter in use with crossover set at ~150Hz.

I guess the obvious thing to do is move the EMP's back to the office

 

[KEW]

er, i didn't mean the converted would clip, i meant the sound card might have.

Where do you have the UPA-2 gain set? If the gain is too low, some brands' preamps do clip, like yamahas from what i've read.

OK, right, I was wondering how that would work! No sound card.

I have the gain set at what would be 9 on a scale of 10. Using USP-1 for the pre.

Thanks for considering the other possibilities. I'll probably repeat the problem mode with a different pre and then see if I can get something similar out of my S-2's just to make certain the issue is overdriving the Emp's.

 

[GranteedEV]

I've never owned those speakers, but I'm really just skeptical based on Gene's review of them... he seems to have pumped plenty of power into them without running into distortion type issues (IE the part where he used his monster denon receiver because the 40wpc tube wasn't cutting it in his huge 6000cu ft theater room, it sure didn't sound like the speakers don't love power).

The USP-1 certainly isn't something I'd think of as clipping the pre-outs. That's more or less something I'd reserve for entry level receivers with pre-outs just dumped in for a few extra sales.

On an unrelated side note, I wonder how easy it would be to do a tweeter swap on this speaker with the original 41-SE Vifa tweeter,the same review seemed to suggest that the crossover used is identical.

 

[sholling]

I guess the obvious thing to do is move the EMP's back to the office

Yup move the EMPs into your office. Then move the STs out to the living room where you can finally open them up and maybe pick up some inexpensive Ushers to replace the STs.

 

[zieglj01]

I wonder if there might be a defect, in the crossover of that one speaker.