Time to buy a gun ... again

lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
There are basic fundamentals you need to get down first before shooting a semi-automatic pistol. That would be like giving a new teen driver a Ferrari for his or her first car. Just not a good idea.
Yeah and once she's done with that you can get her this one.

 
m-fine

m-fine

Audioholic
Many people (most?) learn on auto loaders these days. Revolvers have their advantages, but if the goal is to own an auto I would advise you to learn on one. There are plenty of opportunities to learn bad habits with a revolver that will cause problems when you switch to auto loaders. Police departments saw this when switching from their old .357's to Glock 9mm's a couple decades back. The experienced cops suddenly had issues with accidental discharges and things like limp wristing feed failures.

If you want a Taurus revolver, go for it, but I would not get one just to learn on. I started on an auto and the first gun I have started everyone I have introduced to shooting has been an auto. Either a P229, a 1911, or a High Standard .22 for the most part. The US military has started hand gun training with an auto loader for 100 years now, as have most militaries, and it has probably been 25 years or more since police recruits were trained on revolvers.

On another topic, I think you mentioned the beretta 92 a few times. I have a Taurus clone of one. It is a nice gun, but both the Taurus and the orriginal have a very fat grip that will give most women and men with smaller hands trouble. If you have big hands you may absolutely love it, but she could struggle. Another reason to try before you buy if at all possible.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Many people (most?) learn on auto loaders these days. Revolvers have their advantages, but if the goal is to own an auto I would advise you to learn on one. There are plenty of opportunities to learn bad habits with a revolver that will cause problems when you switch to auto loaders. Police departments saw this when switching from their old .357's to Glock 9mm's a couple decades back. The experienced cops suddenly had issues with accidental discharges and things like limp wristing feed failures.

If you want a Taurus revolver, go for it, but I would not get one just to learn on. I started on an auto and the first gun I have started everyone I have introduced to shooting has been an auto. Either a P229, a 1911, or a High Standard .22 for the most part. The US military has started hand gun training with an auto loader for 100 years now, as have most militaries, and it has probably been 25 years or more since police recruits were trained on revolvers.

On another topic, I think you mentioned the beretta 92 a few times. I have a Taurus clone of one. It is a nice gun, but both the Taurus and the orriginal have a very fat grip that will give most women and men with smaller hands trouble. If you have big hands you may absolutely love it, but she could struggle. Another reason to try before you buy if at all possible.
yes the 92fs indeed has a very fat grip, even for my hands.

she's not gonna be touching an SA though ... the revolver would be her go to gun in the event of an emergency.

for the revolver:
it's down to the Taurus tracker 627 .357 4" barrel (found it)
and a Taurus 6" barrel .357 model 689 (unknown looks, can't find a pic or someone who has it on display ... apparently all new local guns are stockpiled in the police headquarters until sold)

i'm kinda diggin the 627 looks :D

we are still going down to the smith and wesson store this weekend though to try out the sizes since they're the only store who has a lot of samples on display.

walther p99 and sig sauer seem to be hard to source (out of stock)

looks like i'll be checking out the hs2000
 
S

spl_nut

Enthusiast
yes the 92fs indeed has a very fat grip, even for my hands.

she's not gonna be touching an SA though ... the revolver would be her go to gun in the event of an emergency.

for the revolver:
it's down to the Taurus tracker 627 .357 4" barrel (found it)
and a Taurus 6" barrel .357 model 689 (unknown looks, can't find a pic or someone who has it on display ... apparently all new local guns are stockpiled in the police headquarters until sold)

i'm kinda diggin the 627 looks :D

we are still going down to the smith and wesson store this weekend though to try out the sizes since they're the only store who has a lot of samples on display.

walther p99 and sig sauer seem to be hard to source (out of stock)

looks like i'll be checking out the hs2000
I like what M-Fine said about autoloaders, but for a go-to defense gun I better like the idea of DA revolver - makes more sense for someone who hasn't been formally trained and/or doesn't maintain proficiency. A quality DA revolver has almost no chance of failure, and should the ammo not go bang (unlikely with fresh, quality cartridges), simply pull the trigger again. No safeties, rounds to chamber, FTF, stovepipes to mess with... All things someone who isn't highly trained will have difficulty dealing with in a situation that requires a gun.

I also love the HS2000/XD. Here's a torture test link FWIW: http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

Check to see if your available version of the HS2000 has the same exchangeable backstraps as the Springfield XDm - Instant grip sizing :) Extremely good functionality (my brother has an XDm in 9mm w/ 5K+ rounds, zero failures of any kind - points very well, feels very good, and hits what you're aiming at), no external safeties (other than what you would normally be gripping or squeezing) to fuss about... An excellent handgun.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
assuming i had a max of 2 handguns ... what case or lockable box would you guys use?

preferable less than 5.5" high external dimension (width can go as wide as 17" and probably 17" deep)


-0-0-0-

wait wait wait ... i just read somewhere that we're not supposed to spin the revolver bullet thingy? hmmm, kinda takes out all the fun.
 
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jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
in that case, it's 627 :)

the 689 looks too cowboy to me :D (and looks massive with that guy)
The 689 is nothing like a cowboy gun. In fact, my wife and sister both love shooting it.



put on a set of black rubber grips and it looks great.

 
J

James NM

Audioholic
Here's my 2 pennies worth:

First, I'm not a fan of ported barrels for a self defense gun. If you have to use a handgun for self defense, the distance to bad guy will almost certainly be measured in feet, rather than yards (do your own conversion to the metric system). If you stick your gun out in a classic two hand shooting stance, the bad guy is probably close enough to grab the gun from you. Because of this, shooting from the retention position (holding the gun one handed and close to the body) is very likely. A ported barrel shoots hot gasses towards the shooters face, rather than straight out the barrel. Shooting a ported gun from the retention position is not a pleasant experience. Serious injuries to the shooter can and has occurred. Additionally, since most self defense shootings happen at night in low light conditions, the muzzle blast directed at the shooter's face from a ported barrel will probably cause temporary blindness (even if the gasses don't cause permanent eye damage). Porting is a great idea for a competition/race/hunting handgun, but I'd pass for self defense.

Second, I believe a semi-auto like the HS2000 is just as simple to learn to operate as a revolver. There is no external safety, and there is only one trigger mode. The HS will have a higher ammo capacity, but small women sometimes need training to develop the proper technique to rack the slide. The double action trigger pull of a revolver (especially a Taurus) is sometimes so hard that some have real issues hitting what they aim at.

Third, if you go with a revolver, I'd probably go with a 4" barrel. IMO, it's the best compromise for shootability, accuracy, and maneuverability.
 
J

James NM

Audioholic
The 689 is nothing like a cowboy gun. In fact, my wife and sister both love shooting it.



put on a set of black rubber grips and it looks great.

That's a nice looking revolver Jeff (I mean for a Taurus). :D
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I was a competetive handgun shooter in college, been to numberous tactical and defense training programs and own several guns and many different ones over the years.

I'm always a bit puzzled that people scoff at the smaller caliber options. Unless you're way up in the north where people wear multiple layers of thick leather and such, a .38... even a .32 will certainly work just fine. I know, I know... you could have a crystal meth addict attack you... yeah... I've heard all that. You should prepare for the most like scenario, not some far-fetched chiche that people keep regurgitating.

For in home defense, I'd steer clear of any ported or compensated handgun. I'm a huge fan of ported and comped guns and own a Springfield Armory XD ported 40 caliber. I love that gun. However, it's not a weapon I would put on my nightstand. If you've ever shot a gun at night, or even in a dimly lit range, you'll note the significance of muzzle flash. A ported gun, amplifies this many times over and can make it very difficult to see after the first shot in a darkened enviroment like your house at night. Yes even with a flashlight or gun mounted torch to ID targets (which is first and foremost prior to pulling a trigger) the muzzle flash from a ported gun can impair your vision. If you've ever watched drag racing at night, you'll see what I mean. You don't even notice the flames at daytime, but at night, the exhaust looks like flame throwers. Same thing with a ported handgun.

The benefit of revolver is simply simplicity and that goes a long way in a stressfull situation. You have to be willing to put the time in to train excessively with whatever weapon you choose. Semi-autos have all sorts of benefits, but you introduce a level of complication if you will, a level of mechanics that can create problems that a revolover just wouldn't, or really... can't have. Unless you spinning the cradle and wrist twist slapping it shut like in the movies, it's just simply going to work. Out of the thousands upon thousands of rounds I've shot in my lifetimes, I can say with complete certaintly that I've never had a revolver malfunction. I can't say the same for my semi-autos... even those which were fully custom from the frame up built by expert gunsmiths.

For me, my nightstand gun is a 1911 .45, my carry gun is either my XD 40, or my custom 1911 lightweight commander. My wife's gun is a lightweight Ruger .38 revolver and my overall home defense, chaos in the streets, weapon are my AR's.

the weapon you choose is all specific to your needs. There is no one choice, nor can anyone choose for you. Think about the realistic scenarios you may find yourself in, think about how you'd use your weapon in that scenario, decide what will and won't be affective, then temper it all with what you can legitmately master.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
That's a nice looking revolver Jeff (I mean for a Taurus). :D
I got the exact same Taurus for my Dad after he couldn't pull the slide back any longer on his semi-auto due to arthritis. I really love that gun and will probably own one myself some day.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Good points about the ported barrel, except I have never shot one that directed the gasses at your face. I don't think that gun would be on the market very long. As long as it was not pitch black I don't think it would be an issue anyway. I have shot my Taurus 545 at dusk and it was not an issue. They do have more muzzle flash that is a fact, but they are also easier to control so it is a trade off.

I liked the pic with the rubber grip so much I just ran down to my local dealer and picked one up:D I should have done that long ago.

 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Good points about the ported barrel, except I have never shot one that directed the gasses at your face. I don't think that gun would be on the market very long. As long as it was not pitch black I don't think it would be an issue anyway. I have shot my Taurus 545 at dusk and it was not an issue. They do have more muzzle flash that is a fact, but they are also easier to control so it is a trade off.

I liked the pic with the rubber grip so much I just ran down to my local dealer and picked one up:D I should have done that long ago.

]
I'm thnking more at night in a dark house. The ports on the XD create a V shaped burst. Even with a flashlight or gun mounted light, indoors... it will affect your vision. We've done nighttime tactical course shooting and I had to use my XD as a backup. I have a TLR-1 torch on it, and after a 2 double tap, I had red dots in my vision. Again, it has to pretty dark for that to happen, but either way, I think there are better options for a home based handgun
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
I'm thnking more at night in a dark house. The ports on the XD create a V shaped burst. Even with a flashlight or gun mounted light, indoors... it will affect your vision. We've done nighttime tactical course shooting and I had to use my XD as a backup. I have a TLR-1 torch on it, and after a 2 double tap, I had red dots in my vision. Again, it has to pretty dark for that to happen, but either way, I think there are better options for a home based handgun
I don't disagree with it don't get me wrong. I was thinking more from a woman and recoil and muzzle control. In that sense, I think the ported is the way to go.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I was a competetive handgun shooter in college, been to numberous tactical and defense training programs and own several guns and many different ones over the years.

I'm always a bit puzzled that people scoff at the smaller caliber options. Unless you're way up in the north where people wear multiple layers of thick leather and such, a .38... even a .32 will certainly work just fine.
I'm confused. Your first paragraph says that you have no experience shooting attackers, nor necessarily with people who have shot attackers, and then you tell me that a .32 works "just fine".

Please let me know how you have come to this conclusion. What is your criteria for "just fine"? Do you have statistical data comparing the time between being shot and being disabled for a .32 vs a .45 vs a .50?

Perhaps, like me, you are working from anecdotal experience (a family with a lot of hunters, a recreational life with a lot of police, and a surprising number of friends who have actually been shot).

I know from experience that a blood-choke to the brain (such as a rear naked choke) results in unconsciousness in from 4 to 12 seconds. The anecdotes of beheaded people also imply several seconds. Further: my experience shooting deer, where the large-caliber round can destroy a heart, is that they don't fall right away either.

Do you have some logical, statistical, or anecdotal reason to believe that caliber is as unimportant as you indicate?

And no, I'm not discussing someone on PCP (necessarily)

For in home defense, I'd steer clear of any ported or compensated handgun.
I agree with you there.

The benefit of revolver is simply simplicity and that goes a long way in a stressfull situation. You have to be willing to put the time in to train excessively with whatever weapon you choose. Semi-autos have all sorts of benefits, but you introduce a level of complication if you will, a level of mechanics that can create problems that a revolover just wouldn't, or really... can't have.
There are SA's easily as simply to operate as a non-safety DAO revolver... and obviously a revolver with a manual-safety is actually more complex.

Hammered revolvers can fowl when pulled out of a drawer at night (not to mention, in some cases, move in to a half-cocked "safety" position). A concealed hammer revolver would resolve that though.

I guess my point is "it's more about the specific weapon than revolver-vs-auto"

Unless you spinning the cradle and wrist twist slapping it shut like in the movies, it's just simply going to work. Out of the thousands upon thousands of rounds I've shot in my lifetimes, I can say with complete certainty that I've never had a revolver malfunction. I can't say the same for my semi-autos... even those which were fully custom from the frame up built by expert gunsmiths.
You haven't tried the rentals around here. I have had revolvers fail (with correct ammunition... that any weapon fails with the wrong (over-hot for example) ammo is a given). The really odd one was the one that consistently hang-fired.

For me, my nightstand gun is a 1911 .45, my carry gun is either my XD 40, or my custom 1911 lightweight commander.
I do like the .45 as a home defense round. Good man-stopper, not prone to over-penetration. Personally I use the same .40 I use for carry based on my high familiarity with the weapon.
 
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