Definitive Tech Speaker Owner's Thread

[GlocksRock]

Hi Folks;

New to this forum with question(s) in ref to Docks' post in #513 & MatthewB & AcuDefTechGuy replies...

I currently have BP7001sc for fronts with CLR 3000 center & STS Mythos for surrounds; given the option(s) would I benefit most from...

Rotating the 7001's out for 7000sc's or holding with the 7001's & adding an additional sub???
One of the primary interests in the BP-7 series was not needing an external sub but that seems to be indicated from time-to-time by various postings.

If in fact an external sub is the hook-up would I be best served by again;
staying with the 7001's (as the top end is the same as the 7000's) & adding either one Trinity or one (or perhaps two) SC Ref subs???
(already done multiple other brand option checks...thx)

(14x20 room with 8 to 14 cathedral)...
BP2X for side surrounds; BPX for front heights...
lots of amps...

I listen to about 50/50 music vs movies although I rarely have time for 'critical' listening anymore; on average I tend to listen about 5-7 on a 10 scale volume-wise. Ex-musician so music tastes are all over the map but gravitate toward bottom heavy oriented material...

TIA for any feedback...Randall987c

A stand alone sub would be much better, and more cost effective than going with the BP7000SC towers, plus it would be easier to place them. Definitive subs are good, but you can get more bang for your buck with other subs like SVS, HSU, Epik, etc...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...in ref to AcuDefTechGuy replies...

I currently have BP7001sc for fronts with CLR 3000 center & STS Mythos for surrounds; given the option(s) would I benefit most from...

Rotating the 7001's out for 7000sc's or holding with the 7001's & adding an additional sub???

One of the primary interests in the BP-7 series was not needing an external sub but that seems to be indicated from time-to-time by various postings.

If in fact an external sub is the hook-up would I be best served by again;
staying with the 7001's (as the top end is the same as the 7000's) & adding either one Trinity or one (or perhaps two) SC Ref subs???
(already done multiple other brand option checks...thx)

(14x20 room with 8 to 14 cathedral)...
BP2X for side surrounds; BPX for front heights...
lots of amps...

I listen to about 50/50 music vs movies although I rarely have time for 'critical' listening anymore; on average I tend to listen about 5-7 on a 10 scale volume-wise. Ex-musician so music tastes are all over the map but gravitate toward bottom heavy oriented material...

TIA for any feedback...Randall987c

If you want to know whether the Subs in the BP7000SCs are powerful enough for movies in that size room (similar to mine), then my answer is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY YES.

Just a pair of BP7000SCs (like in Pure Direct 2 Ch mode) will violently shake the walls in the adjacent rooms!

I live in a 3,000+ sq ft house, and I can feel the walls in the kitchen (100+ ft away from the HT room) shake from the just the built-in subs in the BP7000SCs.

But don't just listen to what others are saying as to whether you need a subwoofer or not. You be the judge. Play some movies with lots of LFE with your BP7001SCs and judge for yourself.

Why did I get a Trinity Sub?

The only reason is because everyone on this forum has a sub, and I didn't want to be left out.

It's like why did I get a 300 watts per channel amp? Because everyone on this forum has a amp too.

So if you are silly like me, then just get everything.

Otherwise, the subs in your BP7001 may even be enough for your room size.

 

[randall987c]

Thanks for the feedback guys...greatly appreciated & being mulled over.

Coupla' follow-up questions...

use caution because most here feel that the built in subs in the 7*** series should not be used as typical subwoofers because they drop like a rock below 30Hz, matthewB...

Matt, is this referring to the sub in the tower as opposed to an external DefTech sub or just DefTech generally...if it is referring to the tower sub specifically, why would that be?? Box design perhaps; too small, too big, wrong shape, etc.???

Definitive subs are good, but you can get more bang for your buck with other subs like SVS, HSU, Epik, etc... GlocksRock

Been eyeballin' ...well, earballin' the HSU, Velos, JLs, Paradigm, (Bose...psyche!!!) REL, Sunfire & particularly the Epiks among others...not familiar with the SVS...will check out...

Speaking of Sunfire...why does no one speak of them?? When I demoed them I damn near had to wear a cup; seemed beefy to me...

Why did I get a Trinity Sub?

The only reason is because everyone on this forum has a sub, and I didn't want to be left out.

It's like why did I get a 300 watts per channel amp? Because everyone on this forum has a amp too.

So if you are silly like me, then just get everything. AcuDefTechGuy...

You crack me up...lol

Just a pair of BP7000SCs (like in Pure Direct 2 Ch mode) will violently shake the walls in the adjacent rooms! AcuDefTechGuy...

Now we're talking!! That's what I'm used to with my current, soon to be dismantled set-up...

Well; thanks again...now back to the house for more measuring & brain damage...I mean contemplation...


Thanx; Randall

 

[GlocksRock]

I'm surprised you have never heard of SVS, the PB13 Ultra will hands down beat the JL Fathom F113 in output, but some say the JL has better SQ, and it's smaller, but still costs a lot more.

 

[MatthewB.]

Randall sorry so long getting back to you. The subs in the 7*** series should never be used as full range subs, they are the ones to drop like a rock. Outboard subs are better because they have been especially designed to reach lower while the "subs" in the towers were designed to enhance the towers drivers and while they go clean down to 30hz, the issue is when you set the speaker to Large to get that 30Hz tone it also tries to play the sounds below 30Hz and that's what makes the sub sound bloated and muddy.

Now for the price of a DT sub, you could easily buy a SVS sub (they are one of the best internet subs out there next to Hsu. Way better bang for the buck. I have both SVS and DT subs and my SVS is so superior in every way, it's not even funny.

Oh and Sunfire makes okay subs, I mean very powerful in a small box, but with such a small driver you are losing certain frequencies that are harder to produce than one with a larger driver that is easier to drive. I was in a massive HT room (literally two stories high and sat 36 people -3 rows of 12 each) and all the owner had was one 1000 watt 10" sunfire sub to fill that entire place and the bass was weak at best, where I thought if he had 2 SVS PB13's it would also not fill that massive space but would do one hell of a better job and give you bass that you could at least feel. For the money Sunfire wants there are definately better choices like SVS or Hsu.

BTW here's a link to SVS subs. http://www.svsound.com/products-sub.cfm

 

[AJinFLA]

The subs in the 7*** series should never be used as full range subs, they are the ones to drop like a rock.

Can you provide some data to support this? Measurements link?

Outboard subs are better because they have been especially designed to reach lower while the "subs" in the towers were designed to enhance the towers drivers and while they go clean down to 30hz, the issue is when you set the speaker to Large to get that 30Hz tone it also tries to play the sounds below 30Hz and that's what makes the sub sound bloated and muddy.

Again, evidence to support this assertion? How would extension below 30hz by external subs (your claim) prevent "bloated and muddy" sound exactly? How would reducing the number of LF sources (by not using the 700* sub) increase smoothness via spatial averaging?

Oh and Sunfire makes okay subs, I mean very powerful in a small box, but with such a small driver you are losing certain frequencies that are harder to produce than one with a larger driver that is easier to drive.

Can you explain the physics of how one is "losing certain frequencies" with the smaller Sunfire driver??
"That are harder to produce than one with a larger driver that is easier to drive."
Say what?? If the sunfire can displace the same volume of air (X peak x Sd) and produce (measurable) the same SPL at LF as the larger sub, what would it matter?

 

[MatthewB.]

AJin FLA, there are tons of info on many many sites that tested what you seek, it is very common knowledge that the built in subs in the 7000 series come nowhere close to what DT advertises it can. There is no way that my 7001s can achieve 18Hz. I'm sure in a testing chamber hooked uyp to highly sensative equipment that somehwere, some close mike picked up a blip that was inaudible to the human ear that the 7001 generated a 18Hz tone, and so DT proudly claims it goes down to 18Hz. When various audiophiles who used real world testing found that anything below 27hz and it dropped like a rock. Use a search function and with some time, you will find many many instances where this was found to be true.

Now on to your second question, outboard subs were designed to play very low (some with great results and some not so great) but considering real world testing was done (again search is your freind here) any halfway decent outboard sub can handle 27Hz (even a Polk sub and I hate Polk subs) So if you get a sub like SVS, Hsu, ED or Epik you will clearly hear it doing a far better job than the subs built into the towers. Don't even need any testing equipment for that one, let your ears be the judge of that using a bass freindly movie. The subs in the BP 7*** line were designed to enhance the main speakers and were never designed to be used as Main subs (No matter what DT advertises) Now since a majority of people buy store bought subs, they have no clue what deep tight clean bass is. I walk into stores all the time and hear customers exclaim, "Oh what great bass, it shakes you" No what is shaking them is distortion and that great bass they are hearing is mounds of distortion instead of clean deep bass which you can not hear but feel down to the core of your bones and not just your chest vibrating. Bass should hit like a basball bat to the sternum and you shouldn't hear a thing, just feel it. This is why the subs in the towers should be used only as Mid Bass modules (30-80Hz that's the bass you hear, anything below 30Hz should be felt and so when you set the towers to Large and get that bloated muddy sound, that is distortion that your hearing and feeling.

I cross my towers at 40Hz becasue I know the built in subs can handle that without any problems and no blaoted sound. I also cross my DT Prosub 1000 to 40Hz and that is only hooked up to my center channel, the same with my Prosub 800 (40Hz) to my rear channel speakers mid placed in back of room. So my SVS only handles bass below 40Hz, by doing this, the four deftech subs (two in towers and two outboard) play clean and tight down to 40hz only (the bass you can hear) and my SVS handles everything below 40Hz (the bass you feel) and no hint of distortion whatsoever. When an explosion happens you not only hear the clean tight Boooooom, but feel it deep in your bones without any bloated sound. Something i was getting tons of when my towers were set to Large. Once set to small the bass in the towers tightened right up, and if you don't believe me ask with members here and over at AVS where they have made the same discovery and set their towers to small with a 40Hz crossover.

Now with your third question, physics dicates what size drivers need to acheive certain frequencies and the problem with small drivers trying to achieve deeper frequencies by using powerful amps to push them to that level, is you are basically overdriving that speaker and once again bringing in distortion trying to acheive that lower frequency (which is something it shouldn't be trying to do anyway. This is great if your in a small bedroom sized HT, but you have to remember when I heard this sunfire it was in a room that had 40 foot high ceilings, was a good 50 feet long by 40 foot wide with three tiers of seating with seating for 12 on each tier. No matter how hard the owner pushed that sub, it was weak sounding and this sub was using every last watt to try and fill that room. Last weekend I was at a GTG in Delawere where the room was 1/2 the size using one PB13 Ultra and that room was literally breathing bass, I mean pant leg moving, jumping from your seat kinda bass, hence my comment about dual PB13 would do a better job in that large HT (or a massive Infinate baffle sub with quad 18's would do it, but not a 10" driver, nope no way not ever. Physics dicatates this and my comment about losing frequencies is that with that small driver being overly pushed trying to generate a frequency that a 15" or dual 12" can do easily, the Sunfire is pushing it's limits and your not hearing the lower frequencies, but once again hearing distortion which in turn drowns out the frequencies you should be feeling and not hearing.

If it were my money, I would rather spend what it would cost on one Sunfire sub and buy a PB13 or dual DIY subs and get far better results.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The frequency quotes on the DefTech website is withOUT tolerance (+/- 3dB); it is their "full spectrum quote", which can be very misleading I agree.

However, if you email DefTech (like Chet), they will email you the +/-3dB frequency response.

For example, on the BP7000SC, the +/-3dB response is 20 Hz - 20 kHz.

Home Theater Magazine measured the BP7000SC to be about 22 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB and the -6dB bass response is @ 21Hz. Thus, this measurement is very close to the +/-3dB response quoted by DefTech.

Sound & Vision (Tom Nousaine) measured the BP7001SC as 27 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB. According to DefTech (email) the BP7001SC is 22Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB. Again, that is pretty close to 3rd party measurements.

As I've said earlier, using just a pr of BP7000SC in stereo 2.0 & movies 5.0 can produce extreme amount of bass - I placed my hands on the walls in the kitchen ~ 100+ ft away from HT room and I could feel the walls shaking from the bass output of the BP7000SC. I set the sub level on the BP7000SC to 11 o'clock position. Even with this extreme high bass output, it does not affect the midrange or treble clarity at all. Acoustic instruments and vocals sound amazingly clear to me.

I still want the Revel Salon2, but I am definitely keeping my DefTech BP7000s system because I have not yet heard another system that sounds better, including the B&W 800Ds!!!

 

[AJinFLA]

AJin FLA, there are tons of info on many many sites that tested what you seek, it is very common knowledge...

So basically you don't have any measurements whatsoever, or single shred of evidence to support your claim other than "Matt said so", it's "common knowledge".
Ok, thanks.

Now on to your second question, outboard subs were designed to play very low (some with great results and some not so great) but considering real world testing was done...

So where are the "real world" measurements? I have no interest in your rambling subjectivism. That's Matt's world. Measured data is real world, is repeatable, verifiable and is not subject to "Matt's World" rambling, (irrelevant) subjectivism. It will show things like frequency extension and maximum sound pressure output vs frequency, etc, etc, etc.
Where are they??

Now with your third question, physics dicates what size drivers need to acheive certain frequencies

Give us the formula or equation from your physics text. Direct quote or link. Then the relevance to BP built in active subwoofer drivers (8-15" apparently).

and the problem with small drivers trying to achieve deeper frequencies by using powerful amps to push them to that level, is you are basically overdriving that speaker

Again, physics law, equation, formula, etc. to support this claim...and what relevance it has to do with not using BP built in subs.
Direct quote or link, not some rambling subjective haze and hand waving. TIA.

 

[Matt34]

Can you provide some data to support this? Measurements link?


Again, evidence to support this assertion? How would extension below 30hz by external subs (your claim) prevent "bloated and muddy" sound exactly? How would reducing the number of LF sources (by not using the 700* sub) increase smoothness via spatial averaging?


Can you explain the physics of how one is "losing certain frequencies" with the smaller Sunfire driver??
"That are harder to produce than one with a larger driver that is easier to drive."
Say what?? If the sunfire can displace the same volume of air (X peak x Sd) and produce (measurable) the same SPL at LF as the larger sub, what would it matter?

I know your smarter than the questions you've asked here, so are you just doing it in jest? Because it seems to be a pattern.

Tom Nousaine measured the Def Tech BP7001sc(single tower) a few years ago and this is what he published.

25-62Hz average @ 91dB
25Hz@ 77dB
Frequency Response: 27-20Khz +/-6.5dB

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

randall987c,

Hoffman's Iron Law states that the efficiency of a woofer system is directly proportional to its cabinet volume and the cube of its cutoff frequency. What this means is the most powerful subwoofer systems are necessarily large. Now technology has allowed us to find ways to make the enclosures smaller and smaller but their still isn't a way to circumvent this law.

You can probably match your BP7001 with an sunfire, would I recommend it, no not really. It will go reasonable deep but the tradeoff is efficiency for size. If you want deep, sub sonic bass and high efficiency, you'll have to find a larger enclosure.

In other words, the smaller sunfire demands a premium price based on the low sensitive, high excursion woofer, the high output plate amp all wrapped up in a very small box.


Tom Nousaine measurments of the Sunfire Jr.
25-62Hz average @ 100dB
25Hz @ 95dB
25-50Hz average @ 97.5 dB

All figures are for a corner loaded subwoofer, measured at a 2 meters using 10% thd limits in a large 7500 cu-ft room.
The SPL numbers have been averaged from the maximum output(with a 10% thd limit) using 25,32,40,50,62hz steps
in testing(the 25-62hz range is considered the bass intensive film range).

 

[MatthewB.]

Matt34, thanks for posting your response, I was hoping that AJinFLA would take the time to search out this himself, considering this info has been rehashed countless times on many forums and I just didn't feel the need to do the work for him, when "Search is your Friend" was mentioned, but thanks for answering his questions. Also many published results he's looking for are on the HTMagazine website with graphs showing the tested specs.

 

[AJinFLA]

I know your smarter than the questions you've asked here

That's a risky assumption.

so are you just doing it in jest? Because it seems to be a pattern.

How else would we get to the answers to such bizarre, misinformed beliefs other than asking questions (even if the answers always avoid the actual question and don't answer them)?

Tom Nousaine measured the Def Tech BP7001sc(single tower) a few years ago and this is what he published.
25-62Hz average @ 91dB
25Hz@ 77dB
Frequency Response: 27-20Khz +/-6.5dB

Thanks Matt, that's closer to what I'm looking for. I search with Google and didn't see that. What search engine do you use...or did you already know where to look? Murphys Law - the S&V measurement page link is bad.
Btw, that (TN) is an in room measurement @ 2m. I don't see any nearfield or free space measurements to see how the room/mic placement is affecting the response. Is it in an anti-node? Do you know of any free space measurements? Will it measure the same in another...including Randalls room?
If it does roll off below the high 20's, what would that have to do with Matt claiming "Bloated" "Muddy" sound?? What would that have to do with Matt recommending not using the onboard sub as good advice? Why would it be beneficial to have less spatially placed LF sources? How does that help?
What if Randall has the sense not to place the speakers poorly in the room or overload the input or not max out the output gain...to result in user induced "Bloat and mud"???

randall987c,
Hoffman's Iron Law states that the efficiency of a woofer system is directly proportional to its cabinet volume and the cube of its cutoff frequency. What this means is the most powerful subwoofer systems are necessarily large. Now technology has allowed us to find ways to make the enclosures smaller and smaller but their still isn't a way to circumvent this law.

Right. And what does this have to do with "losing frequencies" and "overdriving" small woofers??? What relevance whatsoever would efficiency have to Randall?? When the only thing that matters is sound pressure without seriously audible distortion? What would it matter if the Sunfire is small...but achieves sufficient SPL for Randall (btw, how do you know which particular model sub Randall is referring to? Did I miss it??).

You can probably match your BP7001 with an sunfire, would I recommend it, no not really. It will go reasonable deep but the tradeoff is efficiency for size. If you want deep, sub sonic bass and high efficiency, you'll have to find a larger enclosure.
In other words, the smaller sunfire demands a premium price based on the low sensitive, high excursion woofer, the high output plate amp all wrapped up in a very small box.
Tom Nousaine measurments of the Sunfire Jr.
25-62Hz average @ 100dB
25Hz @ 95dB
25-50Hz average @ 97.5 dB

Again Matt, what would Randall care about efficiency? If the sub is capable of meeting his Sound Pressure needs, without objectionable levels of distortion....why would he care about efficiency
Why would he not want the smaller easier to place for better response/WAF sub??
Is the Jr even a current model? Again, not sure if it's Murphys Law or Google, but I can find scant measured data on any current subs...including the Audioholics Review of the HRS-12.
But based on Randalls comment about his experience with the Sunfire, I seriously question whether he couldn't find one (or two..HRS's) suitable to his needs, rather than your perceived one...or worse MattB's chest trauma LF needs....superimposed upon Randall.

cheers,

AJ

 

[AJinFLA]

Thanks for the feedback guys...greatly appreciated & being mulled over.
Coupla' follow-up questions...
Matt, is this referring to the sub in the tower as opposed to an external DefTech sub or just DefTech generally...if it is referring to the tower sub specifically, why would that be?? Box design perhaps; too small, too big, wrong shape, etc.???

With reference to using the subs in your towers...absolutely yes, you would definitely want to for sound, rational, scientific reasons. The more LF sources (which includes your BP on board subs) you have, distributed around your room, the better.
Use the common sense you have for placement and gain settings (most likely already done), to avoid "bloat and mud".

Speaking of Sunfire...why does no one speak of them?? When I demoed them I damn near had to wear a cup; seemed beefy to me..l

I guess they don't project manliness enough .
Seriously, if the Sunfire best fits your needs...get it. Yes, all things equal (power, driver displacement volume), the larger subs will generate greater SPL....and be harder to place/hide.
Combined with the BP subs, one or two Sunfires might be just fine for your needs. If you want 120db @ 15hz @ 2m (or another exact, similar specified requirement), then yes you may want larger subs.
You don't have to give two hoots about efficiency or Hoffman, just SPL/Fr/Distance, with tolerable levels of distortion (multi subs help there too).

cheers,

AJ

 

[Matt34]

That's a risky assumption.


How else would we get to the answers to such bizarre, misinformed beliefs other than asking questions (even if the answers always avoid the actual question and don't answer them)?


Thanks Matt, that's closer to what I'm looking for. I search with Google and didn't see that. What search engine do you use...or did you already know where to look? Murphys Law - the S&V measurement page link is bad.
Btw, that (TN) is an in room measurement @ 2m. I don't see any nearfield or free space measurements to see how the room/mic placement is affecting the response. Is it in an anti-node? Do you know of any free space measurements? Will it measure the same in another...including Randalls room?
If it does roll off below the high 20's, what would that have to do with Matt claiming "Bloated" "Muddy" sound?? What would that have to do with Matt recommending not using the onboard sub as good advice? Why would it be beneficial to have less spatially placed LF sources? How does that help?
What if Randall has the sense not to place the speakers poorly in the room or overload the input or not max out the output gain...to result in user induced "Bloat and mud"???


Right. And what does this have to do with "losing frequencies" and "overdriving" small woofers??? What relevance whatsoever would efficiency have to Randall?? When the only thing that matters is sound pressure without seriously audible distortion? What would it matter if the Sunfire is small...but achieves sufficient SPL for Randall (btw, how do you know which particular model sub Randall is referring to? Did I miss it??).



Again Matt, what would Randall care about efficiency? If the sub is capable of meeting his Sound Pressure needs, without objectionable levels of distortion....why would he care about efficiency
Why would he not want the smaller easier to place for better response/WAF sub??
Is the Jr even a current model? Again, not sure if it's Murphys Law or Google, but I can find scant measured data on any current subs...including the Audioholics Review of the HRS-12.
But based on Randalls comment about his experience with the Sunfire, I seriously question whether he couldn't find one (or two..HRS's) suitable to his needs, rather than your perceived one...or worse MattB's chest trauma LF needs....superimposed upon Randall.

cheers,

AJ

Really not going to go point for point with all this as I don't see it helping the OP all that much but I will point out that using multiple subs is usually beneficially to smoothing the FR across the room...but you want them to be identical (or close to it) in performance. Mix-matching subs and trying to get them all to play nicely is something I've tried with little success.

Ideally you should use identical subwoofers for the best overall performance, but it is possible to mix and match subwoofer brands and types if you're willing to do the extra work. If using mismatched subs, bear in mind that systems with different low frequency cutoffs may well be in phase and additive over most of their band, but at or below system resonance may well be out of phase. This can put us in the position of having the sub with a higher cut-off frequency reducing overall system output below its cutoff frequency. This is why we usually recommend using identical subs all around.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/multiple-subwoofer-setup-calibration-1

 

[MatthewB.]

AJinFLA, hey you use your speakers yuor way and I use em my way. I have found in my testing that by setting to Large the "subs" actually overpower the mid range and upper frequency and give a "boominess" hence my term for muddy and bloated sounding. I actually prefer my bass tight and well controlled, but hey you prefer boomy bass and there's nothing wrong with that. Each person likes what they like. I would rather have my towers "subs" linear flat to what I know they can handle with no distortion and since my preamp can't do 30Hz I have to settle for a 40Hz crossover

But as mentioned and as the graphs that Tom Noussaine posted in his reviews that below 27Hz the subs in the 7001s drop like a rock, hence adding distortion and sounding bloated, but hey you apparantly like that, so more power to you. Me I chose to use my towers and the built in subs as mid bass modules and let my SVS handle the real low end. I know that the bass in my main HT is tight down to just below 20Hz.

I have not tested the BP7000sc but that may be the one exception where I would set to Large, but again my room response would have a large impact and I would have to run RTA to find the nulls and peaks to tame the speakers, but for now, having my 7001 set to small and knowing that it can handle what I give it works for me. But then again there are people who love Bose too and hey whatever floats their boat.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When it comes to bass output, everyone has different tastes.

Not everyone needs a sub that goes down to 10Hz @ 100dB.

Some people only desire bass output of 27Hz @ 75dB @ 2 meters away.

Some subs go down to only 35Hz @ -3dB, and that's enough for some people.

Some don't think the BP7001SCs produce enough bass, some people think they produce plenty enough bass + still have great clarity & imaging at the same time.

Some people place their BP7001SCs 6 inches away from the front walls, and some people place their Bp7001SCs 4 ft away from the front walls.

 

[Whitey80]

Guess I can post here now.
Just got a pair of BP-8's and a C1-J center on trade to collect dust in my basement! Hot dog!

 

[jgeorg5]

new web page up

http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/products.aspx?productid=BP-8080ST

Just thought I'd pass this along to all the Def Tech fans.

 

[Jack N]

Ya. I saw that too. I've been waiting a long time for this overhaul and I'm afraid that I have to say that I'm greatly disappointed. I bought a pair of BP2000s several years ago thinking that they would sound so much better than the BP30s that I have. That was a mistake. After several months of trying to get them to sound right, I gave up and relegated them to the back of the room. I put the BP30s back up front. Not much later the BP7xxx series came out. I went and listened to them and didn't hear much of an improvement over the BP2000s and couldn't justify buying a pair. So I thought by now Def Tech would have learned that they needed to do some serious updating of the BP line. Instead they're still using a muddy class D amp, took away phase adjustments, and added some gimmicky drivers. I honestly don't see how the new series can sound better, or even equal to the current ones. I'm not waiting around for another overhaul. It looks like my Def Tech buying days are done. I'll stick with the old unpowered BP30s or switch to a different brand.

 

[GlocksRock]

If you feel your BP30s are underpowered, why not just get an amp? And how does the built in class D amp make the bass muddy, would a class a/b sub amp make it less muddy?