Spend less on speakers, more on acoustic treatment?

[tentaguasu]

The truth is, and the OP assumed this, both matter. The question is which, if either, is currently over-valued in the exchange.

There's no simple answer... except to recognize how many people fail to realize that the room is involved at all, or correctable at all, and therefore place zero value on room accoustics. Clearly the value is >0% (remember our vacuum experiment), and therefore many people undervalue room treatments.

Exactly! Thanks! I'm the OP and that's exactly what I meant.

However, as I'm quickly realizing there is no easy answer to this....

 

[tentaguasu]

If someone truly wants the maximum level of performance, I can't see a way around acoustical treatments(to be defined as devices that manipulate the acoustic properties of a room to (a) targeted characteristic(s)). One can have better SQ in a typical room using speakers with certain properties. But maximum potential requires specific effort(s). -Chris

OK, this is sort of what I was driving at - what if I can't afford the "maximum level of performance" but am instead trying to eek out the best possible sound out of a limited budget?

As JerryLove suggested, I'm trying to figure out where to put my money. I'm not trying to achieve perfection - which I've long ago given up on - but correctly managing my scarce resources for maximum effect.

A big DeltaQuality/DeltaPrice makes me happy. A low DeltaQuality/DeltaPrice makes me sad.

Or put in human terms - I want bang for my buck.

I don't think anyone rational can say that either speakers or treatments are irrelevant. SOME type of treatment is necessary, even if it's just carpet, a couch and a warm body. (Jeez, I was shocked at how bad an old pair of speakers sounded in the concrete and drywall only room.) Obviously speakers aren't irrelevant either.

My fundamental question is - do people tend to undervalue AT when allocating their resources?

Let's make up a number - say $1000. Do I spend $100 on speakers and $900 on AT? $1000 on speakers and completely ignore the AT?

 

[tentaguasu]

Why not reset the thread and describe a room that could be used as a model, so the opinions can be presented in a less emotional manner?.

Dedicated home theater room. 18x15x8 feet. Nothing in it right now except a concrete floor and drywall.

Will eventually be carpeted and have 1-2 rows of couches. No decor of any sort on the walls now.

It's sort of a blank slate.

 

[Alex2507]

Let's make up a number - say $1000. Do I spend $100 on speakers and $900 on AT? $1000 on speakers and completely ignore the AT?

Get the best sounding speakers you can for around a grand. Borrow if the speakers you like are like 50% more but get what you like. If what you like is only $500 like the 362's then you have a start already for AT.

Speakers first. Price doesn't always reflect SQ but looks count too.

 

[JerryLove]

Let's make up a number - say $1000. Do I spend $100 on speakers and $900 on AT? $1000 on speakers and completely ignore the AT?

In a normal, carpeted room; and given the cost of treatments (let's say $200 is about the floor): I think I'd go entirely for speakers.

If I found that my best sub-$1000 option came out to $800; I'd buy that and then explore if I could improve with a bass trap or the like.

If, on the other hand, your room has observable problems (perhaps a lack of sound absorbers), consider treatments (which may be throw rugs and curtains).

 

[AJinFLA]

Do you often ask questions about things that didn't happen?
....So if I have a room that's a 8'x8'x8' cube entirely covered in tile

That when things are different they are not the same.

I moved the speaker, the sound got better.

You keep dodging the question. If it is the room that was causing that problem, what would be the implication if I placed my speakers in the exact same spot you moved the speaker from and it didn't have the problems yours had in the same spot? The room would be completely unchanged. Only the source would have changed.
I ask again, when can I come over and do exactly that, have you explain what perceived problem there was in the "bad room spot" that forced you to move your speakers, to get "better" sound, measure the "problem", then see if the "problem" still exists with mine? Or are you going to cop out and say the measurements won't reveal the problem and you still think mine sound poorly...because you said so??
Jerry, when can I come over and put your house of cards to the test and publicize the results right here on the forum??

But if you believe your speakers can reproduce 100% accurate sound in all listening positions in my house, I can't wait to see them.
If they cannot, then why not?

What is "reproduced 100% accurate sound"? Define it for us scientifically, using metrics.

Then let me know a date for this to be public test, so we can put those metrics to the test.
Jerry?

 

[JerryLove]

You keep dodging the question. If it is the room that was causing that problem, what would be the implication if I placed my speakers in the exact same spot you moved the speaker from and it didn't have the problems yours had in the same spot? The room would be completely unchanged. Only the source would have changed.

You skip my questions and challenges to accuse me of dodging the question?

You posit a hypothetical that will not happen. Your speakers, in the same spot (or any other), will not manage a completely flat FR nor a two-dimensional waterfall from all points in my room.

I ask again, when can I come over and do exactly that, have you explain what perceived problem there was in the "bad room spot" that forced you to move your speakers, to get "better" sound, measure the "problem", then see if the "problem" still exists with mine? Or are you going to cop out and say the measurements won't reveal the problem and you still think mine sound poorly...because you said so??

I'm quite certain that measurements will show any number of SPL/frq and SPL/time issues with your gear or mine. The only way to not would be perfect radiators in an anechoic chamber (and then you would suffer from an extreme sweet-spot preference as well as issues with the orientation of your head).

Which is a good example of why there's no such thing as a perfect room. If I were in an infinate space (or an anechoic chamber) then the room would add nothing to the sound: but then the sound would only be hitting my ears from a single direction. The effects of a room (say the room the sound was recorded in) could be reproduced on the source: and the sound would be perfect within an axis with perfect response from the speakers, and with my head pointed directly at them (otherwise my head is a baffle), and with the distances tightly controlled (to keep whatever the audio equivelant of parilax is right). This is pretty much what headphones attempt.

So in the very small "sweet spot", and anechoic chamber or infinate space might be perfect.

All other rooms reflect and absorb-emit sound. These reflections are not time aligned with the original source (mostly), and are rarely identical in the FR-curve. In short: they expand the sweet spot while introducing inaccuracies. That's not always an unpleasent outcome (hence the popularity in some circles of dipolar and omnipolar rigs).

Speaking of dipolar: there's a pretty signifigant difference between speakers that pressurize air (which are loudest near boundries and even half-wavelengths from boundries) and ones which move air (which are loudest farthest from boundries). It's a classic issue for placement in things like maggies, walshs, and even dipole surround speakers.

Jerry, when can I come over and put your house of cards to the test and publicize the results right here on the forum??

Why not do it at your house? It will save you a lot of speaker moving. I'll bring the laptop to save the waterfalls and FR graphs.

So I should expect +/- 0db from 20Hz to 20KHz no matter where I put the mic, nor how I orient a non-omni-directional mike and I should expect zero sound on the waterfall plot after any delay greater than the speed of sound / distance to speaker.

That's correct?

What is "reproduced 100% accurate sound"? Define it for us scientifically, using metrics.

Go to a concert. Sit down with a mic. Get up. Go listen to the concert off a pair of speakers. Compare the waveforms.

Then let me know a date for this to be public test, so we can put those metrics to the test.

Next Sunday. Your house. Let me know where to be.

 

[Seth=L]

I lied, I do have some questions.

AJinFLA, why do you only quote parts of Jerry's responses and pretend that he didn't answer your question? Do you really think that the general population of this forum has a 2 second memory span or can't go back and read the previous post that you responded to with quotes taken out of context? Do you take everyone on this forum for a completely inept fool?

Your only response to any logical support for room acoustics is to refer someone to an article. That article does not discount the use of acoustic room treatment. You seem to be rigidly apposed to it for what ever reason. I'd tell you to get over it, but I'd be wasting my time since you stacked a pile of bricks in order to prevent anything that doesn't fit your view from sticking.

And lastly, hardly anyone is going to have perfect speakers with excellent on and off axis response. You are unbelievably realistic.

Or....

You're trolling. Taking into account your membership at other forums has been "lost", this is highly possible.

 

[AJinFLA]

accuse me of dodging the question?

No need to accuse, it's clear to any (technically literate) person reading you had to evade, or have your house of cards collapse. That's ok. Beliefs are tough to let go of.
No test in Jerry's house to expose the "problem" room bogeyman. Hey, then he still exists .

Next Sunday. Your house. Let me know where to be.

That's certainly one way to hide from your room "problems".
Your untreated room with problems, i.e.

I've enjoyed the laughs, have a good one

 

[AJinFLA]

However, as I'm quickly realizing there is no easy answer to this....

I'll try to make it as easy and layman as possible for you. Your room isn't a 8x8 metal shoebox.
There are two schools of thought:
1) Buy a turd, douse it with gallons of (sometimes expensive) perfume, repeatedly...and it won't smell as bad.
2) Buy a competently engineered loudspeaker, place them sensibly (like not under the couch, or in the corner, facing it, like some of our members had to do as kids) in the room...and you won't need any perfume.
The latter method is advocated by folks doing lots of perceptual research (speakers) like Sean (here on this forum), Dr Toole (ex Harman), Dr Geddes (GedLee), Linkwitz (the site I linked), etc, etc. who have papers and texts, etc. that you can read and decide for yourself.
The first is advocated by folks who sell treatments and some individuals here on this forum who think it's the best method, based on their personal level of technical literacy.
It's up to you to figure which path seems like the intelligent thing to do.
Good luck

cheers,

AJ

 

[Seth=L]

No need to accuse, it's clear to any (technically literate) person reading you had to evade, or have your house of cards collapse. That's ok. Beliefs are tough to let go of.

I guess everyone here must be technically illiterate. Looks like we'll all have to pick up and go somewhere else.

 

[AJinFLA]

I guess everyone here must be technically illiterate

No idea. How much did you find yourself laughing at what he wrote?

Looks like we'll all have to pick up and go somewhere else.

Like marbles at the playground? Is this how you deal with heretics inside your church? Sean doesn't mandate that you save on wasted heat, any more than I mandate that you not buy turds (or "neutral monitors") and perfume.
It's just nice to know there are other options. Choose the one the suits you best Seth.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Seth=L]

No idea. How much did you find yourself laughing at what he wrote?


Like marbles at the playground? Is this how you deal with heretics inside your church? Sean doesn't mandate that you save on wasted heat, any more than I mandate that you not buy turds (or "neutral monitors") and perfume.
It's just nice to know there are other options. Choose the one the suits you best Seth.

cheers,

AJ

Do you have any idea what the hell you are talking about? The way you rant reminds me heavily of the late LOTR and DolbyCP characters that frequented this forum and asserted heavily their lopsided views of things.

You strongly exhibit troll like behavior.

1.) being glued to the monitor and almost instantaneously responding to posts.

2.) conveniently omitting parts of quotes so you can take what users say out of context.

3.) ranting about nothing

Enjoy your fun while it lasts.

 

[AJinFLA]

Do you have any idea what the hell you are talking about? The way you rant....

 

[JerryLove]

No test in Jerry's house to expose the "problem" room bogeyman. Hey, then he still exists .

That's certainly one way to hide from your room "problems".
Your untreated room with problems, i.e.

The topic isn't "my room", it's rooms in general. As such, your room should work just fine.

I haven't gotten an PM. Will we not be testing next Sunday afterall?

 

[haulin79]

How about appling the "Pareto Principle" (The 80/20 rule) to your audio system (source, interconnects, amps, prcessors, room, air, your hearing aids, etc...).

"roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes"

en.wikipedia dot org/wiki/Pareto_principle

Identify where the majority of your problems are originating and apply your efforts to improving that ONE area. After that one area no longer constitutes the majority of your problems, reevaluate the new origin and attack that. A process of ongoing improvement: focusedperformance dot com/poogi1.html

For some it may be the room, for others it may be the speakers, etc...

Where is it most cost effective to apply improvements? It depends on YOUR specific system and YOUR specific goals.

 

[MatthewB.]

DolbyCP is still lurking, he's the one whose been stalking Yepimonfire and also goes by the name Ashley.

Agree that members views are very lopsided.

 

[yepimonfire]

i think room treatments are only necessary if there is excessive reverberation or bad standing wave issues.

 

[Alex2507]

I haven't gotten an PM. Will we not be testing next Sunday afterall?

So now you're calling it testing, huh? That's cool.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wait a minute...

Is there a double-blinded study on effects of acoustic panels on speaker sounds?