DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[MinusTheBear]

So does anyone have any idea how many days these type of trials go on for (re: indictment) or what to expect for a time period since Audionut's is around the same period?

 

[Chu Gai]

So does anyone have any idea how many days these type of trials go on for (re: indictment) or what to expect for a time period since Audionut's is around the same period?

My guess, based upon previous things I've read at the AG's website, is they'll look to avoid a trial in exchange for a plea of guilty to some sort of consolidation and/or reduction in charges. I haven't seen any instances where the defendant did not have to pay full restitution including any fines and applicable court costs. I don't think they'll kick it all down to a misdemeanor level with no jail time but that's wishful thinking on my part. I have read where restitution is paid to the court if you will according to a defined payment plan which then handles the disbursement of monies. If the defendant is found to be delinquent, then according to whatever the plea deal is, this may result in partial or full reinstitution of charges including jail time. It's going to be very much a double edged sword I think. Depending on how quickly the information is processed by the court clerk we might know something on the 29th.

 

[mziegler]

Also keep in mind the politics here. Although the numbers involved are large in the audio and, especially the online audio world, they are very small in the light of other scandals. Prosecutors play politics, and they will most vigorously persue cases that will bring them the best PR. The real question here is how much "profit," so to speak, there is in a case involving theft of money that was supposed to go to charity.

 

[bunnyma357]

Also keep in mind the politics here. Although the numbers involved are large in the audio and, especially the online audio world, they are very small in the light of other scandals. Prosecutors play politics, and they will most vigorously persue cases that will bring them the best PR. The real question here is how much "profit," so to speak, there is in a case involving theft of money that was supposed to go to charity.

Actually, the "profit" is fairly high, as stealing from charities is particularly vilified by the public. Much more so than stealing from the super wealthy.

Jim C

 

[Papajin]

Actually, the "profit" is fairly high, as stealing from charities is particularly vilified by the public. Much more so than stealing from the super wealthy.

Technically speaking though, he stole from the people who donated the money under the auspices of it going to charity. Saying the money was going to charity and not delivering was the fraudulent part.

What kinda person would even think to do any sort of charity fund raising and not keep that money utterly and totally separate (not to mention untouchable) from their own or their company's anyway? (this is a rhetorical question since we all know the answer)

"Underfunded"... that's a good one!

 

[gonk]

Technically, that's true, but the use of charities as the bait (rather than, for example, promises of unrealistic returns on investments) certainly has a stronger degree of "nastiness" tied to it. That likely factors into the AG's thinking. So does the potentially significant pressure from some of the national charities involved, as they take their PR seriously and would likely be in favor of making sure anyone who used their name as bait gets smacked down as forcefully as possible.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Technically, that's true, but the use of charities as the bait (rather than, for example, promises of unrealistic returns on investments) certainly has a stronger degree of "nastiness" tied to it. That likely factors into the AG's thinking. So does the potentially significant pressure from some of the national charities involved, as they take their PR seriously and would likely be in favor of making sure anyone who used their name as bait gets smacked down as forcefully as possible.

Using actual/reputable charities as the "bait" are one of the charges. It was spoken before that charities get pretty pissed off at stuff like this especially the big, well known ones. I believe it was described in the indictment but I don't remember the exact or accurate wording that was used on that one charge.

 

[droht]

Actually, the "profit" is fairly high, as stealing from charities is particularly vilified by the public. Much more so than stealing from the super wealthy.

Jim C

I agree completely. Even if the dollar amounts are dwarfed by bigger criminals this will play with Joe Q. Public.

I wonder if this has hit the editorial pages of the local newspapers? That probably is the most direct way to get the attention of local voters and in turn the AG who wants their votes.

 

[Chu Gai]

I think it's also tied into things like timing and the sort of coverage - local or national - something like this gets. Take Hurricane Katrina for example. The public sympathy, shock, or whatever you want to call it was pretty great in and around that time. Heck there was even national coverage that had to do with whether the Red Cross was allocating the monies correctly. And when there were screwups or talk of victims being taken advantage of, it received enormous public exposure all over the place. You had congressional hearings, task forces being created, agencies like the FBI, Justice Department, and others working in concert to prosecute fraud. A couple of years later, and while we're still pretty pissed off at what MLS did, the general public outrage isn't that great outside of the audio enthusiast's world. There's only been a few newspaper mentions and nothing that I can recall concerning TV or radio coverage. Hence, to my mind, there's just not as much political hay that can be made now. Like him or not, had this hit the O'Reilly Factor or something similar, that would've kicked things into a higher gear.

As near as I can tell, MLS is finished in the audio world and not just for the raffle business. Let's not forget that he's welched on suppliers and customers. We know now that he's full of hot air and has mislead the public time and again. There's not a reputable supplier who would consider doing business with MLS directly. You're not going to find him dealing with known entities when it comes to sourcing drivers. He'll have to go through intermediaries that act as covers. Would SEAS or Vifa deal with him at this time? Look what happened when Arte Forma got the inside scoop on him. The only places that I can see might be some lesser known Chinese suppliers. And I'll bet Pu's ear is tuned mighty carefully so that if he hears about anyone of note looking to do business with him, he'll just give them an FYI. Do some of you recall when MLS was looking to be a Xindak supplier? Remember nothing happened and when asked about it, he offered some lame excuse? Well that's what happens when people in the industry talk among themselves.

 

[cschang]

Which "big" players have even dealt with him in the last 5 years or so?

As for Chinese suppliers, I am sure Pu has spread the word.

 

[gonk]

As for Chinese suppliers, I am sure Pu has spread the word.

That might even explain the sudden emphasis on domestically-built cabinets...

 

[Chu Gai]

That might even explain the sudden emphasis on domestically-built cabinets...

I haven't seen any that have been built domestically. The LS's that he's dumping I think were made in China and the MFW's came from Colombia and were unfinished. I wonder if they were unfinished because that's the only way they could be made (insufficient staff at UniAudio) or if it was because the veneer they were using really wasn't coming from sustainable growth?

 

[rotorooter]

Personally I woudn't take the chance. Eventually they will be keeping the lights on an empty warehouse.

Speaking of warehouse, (I believe there is a showroom there also) I'm curious if Chu can speak to whether this property is owned or leased by the Shifty one?

 

[Chu Gai]

Personally I woudn't take the chance. Eventually they will be keeping the lights on an empty warehouse.

Speaking of warehouse, (I believe there is a showroom there also) I'm curious if Chu can speak to whether this property is owned or leased by the Shifty one?

AFAIK, it's leased/rented. I believe they've gone to through at least 3 warehouses -small, big, back to small - and at the rate they're going they'll soon be able to work out of a garage.

 

[audionut101]

Here's a question for you. How does one handle the paperwork including any email correspondence you have that substantiates your claim? Is that sent and if so to whom? Also, with respect to having the papers served on Mark, just what did you use for an address? Home, job, both?

Good job audionut!!! Damned good. I guess with all of this, Mark will be on a first name basis with the Sheriff's department.

We'll see how the suit goes and rest assured that I will let everyone know about my outcome.

In terms of evidence, I have multiple exhibits. I will keep everyone posted!

In terms of papers served, I had Boulder County's finest serve both his home ans business. As far as small claims court goes, that is more than sufficient. they were able to get a relative over the age of 18 to sign off.

 

[Chu Gai]

We'll see how the suit goes and rest assured that I will let everyone know about my outcome.

In terms of evidence, I have multiple exhibits. I will keep everyone posted!

In terms of papers served, I had Boulder County's finest serve both his home ans business. As far as small claims court goes, that is more than sufficient. they were able to get a relative over the age of 18 to sign off.

Have the exhibits already been sent to the court?

 

[gonk]

I haven't seen any that have been built domestically. The LS's that he's dumping I think were made in China and the MFW's came from Colombia and were unfinished. I wonder if they were unfinished because that's the only way they could be made (insufficient staff at UniAudio) or if it was because the veneer they were using really wasn't coming from sustainable growth?

They may not have actually delivered anything yet that was built domestically, but they've talked a good bit about it. After all, every vaporwa- er, I mean every upcoming product currently in the pipeline (LS-4, Rocket G2, the "new" LS-6 and LS-9 cabinets that don't appear to have arrived yet) has been described as coming from domestic sources.

 

[Jed M]

Didn't Ruben build Todd's LS-9's? Or did he just do the finish? Did Lucid build a couple BEM for them? Either way, they burned those bridges too.

 

[tesseract]

Personally I woudn't take the chance. Eventually they will be keeping the lights on an empty warehouse. Failure to deliver a product when they are liquidating their current supply through sales, and selling off the cabinets needed to fullfilll their existing backlog is a pretty clear sign in my oppinion. File today, get your money back, and if you really want a ls9 buy the damn cabinet and get the parts from gr research.

In any case it seems like they are no longer able to produce the speaker that people ordered, a change of cabinet is a major change. Even if the orders are fullfilled the speaker provided will not be the speaker ordered.

I would suggest that anyone who desires the LS-9, NOT buy the cabinet from AV12Guilty. It wouldn't be that hard to get the necessary enclosure plans from another source, for instance... GR Research.

Fallen Enclosures, Inc. would be a top choice for sure. Maybe you wish to keep the money in your locale, support your local cabinet maker. Lots of possibilities, check the AudioCircle forum, lots of capable build out sources there. Just observe the title of this thread...

DO NOT BUY anything from AV123.

 

[tonygeno]

I would suggest that anyone who desires the LS-9, NOT buy the cabinet from AV12Guilty. It wouldn't be that hard to get the necessary enclosure plans from another source, for instance... GR Research.

Fallen Enclosures, Inc. would be a top choice for sure. Maybe you wish to keep the money in your locale, support your local cabinet maker. Lots of possibilities, check the AudioCircle forum, lots of capable build out sources there. Just observe the title of this thread...

DO NOT BUY anything from AV123.

But human nature always kicks in... I can get these multi-thousand dollar speakers for a fraction of their value. So what if they've screwed lots of folks, this deal is too good to pass up and they won't screw me. Sigh.