Site for sensible discussion of technical issues surrounding GOM oil leak.

[TLS Guy]

The actuators of the BOP are damaged, yes. However, the hardened steel casing directly above the BOP outlet flange is designed and capable of handling the pressure of the drill mud and the resultant oil. The problem was a gas pocket that expanded faster than the BOP could react when triggered manually from the rig and the automatic systems were not functioning and were poorly designed to have no remote BU actuators.

The top kill was unsuccessful because the drilling mud pump pressure could not overcome the flow rate and pressure of the oil in order to allow the mud to congeal in preparation for the concrete. What is necessary is to slow/stop the oil so the concrete can be pumped in the casing through the BOP ports and not have flowing oil to provide counter pressure.

My plug concept can be slowly applied so as to not exert an sudden stoppage pressure against the well casing like the water hammer effect in a home plumbing system.

The problem is the plates in the concrete in the sea bed, not the BOP. They don't think the plates will withstand the well pressure, so have to leave it free flowing and go to containment. It can now only be lugged at the bottom of the pipe. They have to have a pipe in the well, and are worried about the pipes becoming extruded from the well. There are three pipes inside the large pipe. That fact alone complicates the issue.

 

[highfigh]

I personally contacted Titan Marine Salvage and Bisso Marine Salvage with an idea I have that will cap the well and rather quickly. During the discussions I was informed by BOTH that they had directly contacted BPs response team and the Coast Guard to offer their expertise and equipment.

Titan is the company that recovered the SS Hunley civil war sub and if you check their website you will see what else they can do and have done including HAZMAT handling of fuel oils and other dangerous cargoes.

The engineer from Titan talked with me for quite a while and informed me that they were told "no thanks, we will handle this" Same response from the folks at Bisso MS.

I have contacted all the numbers and websites listed, talked personally with the CG response coordinator office in LA and have been told the same. In fairn3ss the officer at the CD office did ask me what kind PSI my idea could handle and I thought he was seriously going to contact someone to talk with me.

Although BP advertises they are seeking ideas, nothing could be further from the truth. They would be crucified even more if some non oil industry person like myself came up with a workable solution (which I have).

The mechanics of this are so simple and damn near every mechanic has a miniature version of this device in their tool box. The device just needs up sizing and some hydraulic actuators. Every time you see the underwater pictures you are looking right at the solution.

BP did state that the profits (slim to none) from the collected oil will be paid to those with claims. Whoopti damn doo!

I will be trying again tomorrow to get someone to look at the idea.

Are you referring to a hose pinch-off pliers, like these?
http://www.shopperschoice.com/item_name_K-D-Tools-3-4-Inch-Hose-Pinch-Off-Pliers_item_394380.html?source=gan

A hydraulic version seems workable, especially as a means to slow the rate of loss. I saw someone last night with a "solution" that amounted to a pipe that would be straight until it reaches the leak, bent at the end and inserted into the existing pipe. From the surface. They think they can guide it from the top. Right. It was all of 4" in diameter. Right. It had what looked like reinforced rubber discs that would act as a seal around their pipe.

 

[TLS Guy]

Cameron needs to be firmer with Obama.

Daily Telegraph editorial today. I think the most interesting part are the comments, with views from both sides of the Atlantic. If you have the time it is a very interesting read.

 

[gmichael]

I just wish it was that simple!

For one thing there is overwhelming evidence that cleaning marshes does more harm than good. If you try to clean them they never recover, if you leave them alone they recover in three to four years.

Today's figures indicate the flow from that pipe is colossal. That is what you would expect with 450 atmospheres minus 150 atmospheres for the water column, so 300 atmospheres of forward pressure coming up a 26" pipe.

They dare not cap it as they are pretty certain the blow out plates will give way if they do cap it from above. So the pipe has to run free while they collect what oil they can.

This will be a mess until the pipe can be sealed from the bottom.

If the relief pipe ends up in the wrong place first time, which is more likely than not, expect the leak to be sealed most likely between December and February. Average time for this maneuver is nine months. So lets hope they get lucky.

This mess won't be cleaned by skimmers and vacuum cleaners!

My point is to stop waisting effort on all the bickering and focus on the clean-up. If you are not part of the sollution, then you are part of the problem. Let's work on cleaning up the mess and then fight about who's fault it is later. Priorities!

 

[TLS Guy]

My point is to stop waisting effort on all the bickering and focus on the clean-up. If you are not part of the sollution, then you are part of the problem. Let's work on cleaning up the mess and then fight about who's fault it is later. Priorities!

I certainly agree with that.

 

[James NM]

A strong response should have been mounted from the start.

They should have commandeered every dredger and barge right along the coast, and secured fill.

They should have diked the vulnerable areas, especially the marshes. We could have had most of it built by now with a vigorous effort.

Instead we have had miserable skimmers and now vacuum cleaners with 2" openings. Pathetic.

Personally, I don't have the answers.

How to fix it? How to clean it? My answer would be to quote Obama from the Pres. campaign (about abortion) "That's above my pay grade".

But I do know two things with certainty:

1). This has been a cluster fu*k, and
2). Obama has shown a historic and tragic lack of leadership

To top it off we have grandstanding all round. We have a criminal probe started and farcical hearings before the cause of this event is known. When all the facts are known then you can have hearings and think about involving prosecutors. What we have now is a complete waste of effort.

Yes. Kind of reminds one of the rush to judgement concerning a certain black Harvard college professor and a white cop who acted "stupidly", doesn't it?

And apparently drawing from his vast executive experience (or at least copying the "success" of his now famous beer summit with the two previously mentioned characters), it looks like a solution to the problem is only a beer sip away. Obama, who has had ZERO contact with any BP official in the 7 weeks since the disaster, will apparently have some contact with a BP official sometime next week. Hooray! We're saved!

Later in the day, the White House released a letter from Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen, who is overseeing the crisis for the government, inviting BP Chairman Carl-Henric Svanberg and "any appropriate officials from BP" to meet Wednesday with senior administration officials. Allen said Obama, who has yet to speak with any BP official since the explosion more than seven weeks ago, would participate in a portion of the meeting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100611/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_1207

 

[TLS Guy]

Personally, I don't have the answers.

How to fix it? How to clean it? My answer would be to quote Obama from the Pres. campaign (about abortion) "That's above my pay grade".

But I do know two things with certainty:

1). This has been a cluster fu*k, and
2). Obama has shown a historic and tragic lack of leadership




Yes. Kind of reminds one of the rush to judgement concerning a certain black Harvard college professor and a white cop who acted "stupidly", doesn't it?

And apparently drawing from his vast executive experience (or at least copying the "success" of his now famous beer summit with the two previously mentioned characters), it looks like a solution to the problem is only a beer sip away. Obama, who has had ZERO contact with any BP official in the 7 weeks since the disaster, will apparently have some contact with a BP official sometime next week. Hooray! We're saved!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100611/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_1207

Yes, and to top it off, if you look at the links on my blog page you can see the clown is doing serious damage to US international relations.

Right now he is dangerously kicking the wrong ***.

Cartoon from Telegraph editorial page.

 

[Gizmologist]

plug concept

I am not suggesting a pinch-off operation as there is no exposed pipe to pinch.

My concept is to use a device similar to a gear puller that slips over and locks UNDER the existing flange. One secured, a large hydraulic ram mounted vertically with a downward facing travel SLOWLY pushes a cone-shaped plug layered with a thick malleable metal sheathing into the remnants of the outtake pipe. The softer metal sheathing will conform to any irregularities or the pipe diameter from the sawing operation.
By SLOWLY inserting the plug, there is no sudden shock to the casing.

This is exactly how many simple spigots work on a sink. As the ram continues to be lowered and the plug forced further in, the volume of the flow is decreased, then the mud/concrete can be introduced from the BOP's external ports. The combination of the flow reduction and the concrete pumped in from the surface should then be able to counter the exhaust pressure of the oil from the seabed.

 

[ArthurPE]

and now we come to the root of the issue...racism
surprised it took so long

Personally, I don't have the answers.

How to fix it? How to clean it? My answer would be to quote Obama from the Pres. campaign (about abortion) "That's above my pay grade".

But I do know two things with certainty:

1). This has been a cluster fu*k, and
2). Obama has shown a historic and tragic lack of leadership


Yes. Kind of reminds one of the rush to judgement concerning a certain black Harvard college professor and a white cop who acted "stupidly", doesn't it?

And apparently drawing from his vast executive experience (or at least copying the "success" of his now famous beer summit with the two previously mentioned characters), it looks like a solution to the problem is only a beer sip away. Obama, who has had ZERO contact with any BP official in the 7 weeks since the disaster, will apparently have some contact with a BP official sometime next week. Hooray! We're saved!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100611/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_1207

 

[ArthurPE]

Obama, poor black with a dead mother and piss poor fater who drug himself up by his own bootstraps... ~ the same time in office than bush...
bush
rich daddy
nazi sympathizing grand dad
draft dodger, refused VN serrvice, boozer & coke head
without his father he'd be pumping someones gas...

I have a grip on the situation, as you have obviously lost yours, reality has sllipped thru your fingers...

what would you do? you seem to have all the answers

ALL of the specialized companies are involved? Really? How do you know this- are you involved?

"Obama's lack of experience? he had as much, or more than bush...
and far more successful in nature...again, your bias is showing"

How is this possible? Obama never owned a company, never ran a team or company, was never a Governor and as far as anyone knows, never had a job until he graduated from college. From this last comment, you're blind to any facts that exist and as far as bias, again? What do mean by 'again'? If you mean that I'm biased against him because he's half black, piss off. I Actually liked what he was saying at the beginning of his campaign, until I heard some of the ways he wanted to implement what he was trying to do.

I'm the only one who's wrong here? Get a grip.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am not suggesting a pinch-off operation as there is no exposed pipe to pinch.

My concept is to use a device similar to a gear puller that slips over and locks UNDER the existing flange. One secured, a large hydraulic ram mounted vertically with a downward facing travel SLOWLY pushes a cone-shaped plug layered with a thick malleable metal sheathing into the remnants of the outtake pipe. The softer metal sheathing will conform to any irregularities or the pipe diameter from the sawing operation.
By SLOWLY inserting the plug, there is no sudden shock to the casing.

This is exactly how many simple spigots work on a sink. As the ram continues to be lowered and the plug forced further in, the volume of the flow is decreased, then the mud/concrete can be introduced from the BOP's external ports. The combination of the flow reduction and the concrete pumped in from the surface should then be able to counter the exhaust pressure of the oil from the seabed.

The trouble is the open pipe is now seeing only 150 atmospheres and it is balanced, so pressure across the well head is low. If you plug it it will be 300 atmospheres and almost certainly create a catastrophe to which there is no solution. I don't think you would plug it, the thrust of 300 atmospheres over the areas of that pipe is enormous. When I get time I will calculate it.

 

[TLS Guy]

and now we come to the root of the issue...racism
surprised it took so long

You are the only one playing the race card, like the loony left always do.

 

[ArthurPE]

BP is not the British government...it knows no loyalty other than the $$$ and its shareholders...screw them, drive them into insolvency...
let US companies pick up the pieces...

what's dangerous about holding BP accountable fir thei epic failure?
impacting US soil?
I wouldn't count the UK as a great allie, look at their number of troops in Iraq vs population...token at best...US 90%, UK 5%, 16:1, population 5:1

if there is a country with bigger issues than us it's socialist UK

Yes, and to top it off, if you look at the links on my blog page you can see the clown is doing serious damage to US international relations.

Right now he is dangerously kicking the wrong ***.

Cartoon from Telegraph editorial page.

 

[ArthurPE]

really?
I voted for Bush I, and bush II first time...
I'm an NRA lifetime member
have had a CCW permit for 20 years
ex US Army Officer 82nd and 1/75th (Ranger)
drive a 420 HP sedan

it is you who is ungrounded and living in an alternate reality...

so I'm the 'left', lol, what are you the 'insane'?
and obviously racist...

You are the only one playing the race card, like the loony left always do.

 

[gmichael]

The trouble is the open pipe is now seeing only 150 atmospheres and it is balanced, so pressure across the well head is low. If you plug it it will be 300 atmospheres and almost certainly create a catastrophe to which there is no solution. I don't think you would plug it, the thrust of 300 atmospheres over the areas of that pipe is enormous. When I get time I will calculate it.

If the pipe was still connected (IE: no issue to begin with) how many atmospheres would it normally see? Wouldn't there be times when flow was shut down for one reason or another?

 

[TLS Guy]

BP is not the British government...it knows no loyalty other than the $$$ and its shareholders...screw them, drive them into insolvency...
let US companies pick up the pieces...

what's dangerous about holding BP accountable fir thei epic failure?
impacting US soil?
I wouldn't count the UK as a great allie, look at their number of troops in Iraq vs population...token at best...US 90%, UK 5%, 16:1, population 5:1

if there is a country with bigger issues than us it's socialist UK

I tell you what is wrong about it. 40% of BP stock is held by American pension funds. 40% is held by British pension funds. 18 million UK citizens have significant exposure of there pensions to BP stock failure. That is slightly over 25% of the UK population.

Even not paying the next dividend will put a lot of British pensioners in jeopardy. Obama needs to get over or be called out on his any British sentiments.

He has an axe to grind as the British had to, quite rightly, feel his father's collar in Kenya. His father was not a nice chap at all.

I'm afraid that because of Obama's personal biases this situation will get out of hand.

 

[ArthurPE]

If the pipe was still connected (IE: no issue to begin with) how many atmospheres would it normally see? Wouldn't there be times when flow was shut down for one reason or another?

the thrust on the cap (lbs) ~ 300 atm x 14.7 lb/sq in / atm x Dia/2^2 x Pi (area in sq in)

assuming an ID of 16" ~ 900,000 lbs
flange bolts could hold that, assuming a hardware tensile of 60,000 psi with 1" bolts you would need only 20 of them, the flange has more, perhaps 24 or 36 and are probably higher tensile and larger...

capping the well would not raise the pressure much, if any...the pressure gradiant is even until the orifice or opening, then disappates ...

 

[ArthurPE]

those numbers are not accurate...
most is held by UK funds and private investors...

BP is going down like the Titanic and it can't be stopped, and is deserved...

you again are making broad psycho-analytical assertions with no basis in reality, let alone fact...you 'pointy hood' is showing

btw: the presidents job is to look out for US, not BP or its shareholders...
when money is lost, it's made somewhere else...what's bad for BP is good for US oil compnaies

I tell you what is wrong about it. 40% of BP stock is held by American pension funds. 40% is held by British pension funds. 18 million UK citizens have significant exposure of there pensions to BP stock failure. That is slightly over 25% of the UK population.

Even not paying the next dividend will put a lot of British pensioners in jeopardy. Obama needs to get over or be called out on his any British sentiments.

He has an axe to grind as the British had to, quite rightly, feel his father's collar in Kenya. His father was not a nice chap at all.

I'm afraid that because of Obama's personal biases this situation will get out of hand.

 

[TLS Guy]

If the pipe was still connected (IE: no issue to begin with) how many atmospheres would it normally see? Wouldn't there be times when flow was shut down for one reason or another?

Yes, but they have leaned the plates in the casement in the sea bed are damaged. There is also damage to the pipe 600 feet below the sea bed, leaking oil around the pipes. At the moment this is contained by the tenuous thrust plates in the seabed casement.

The absolute last thing that should be done now, is to try and close off the pipe. It would spell disaster, so BP are correct to ignore you.

 

[TLS Guy]

really?
I voted for Bush I, and bush II first time...
I'm an NRA lifetime member
have had a CCW permit for 20 years
ex US Army Officer 82nd and 1/75th (Ranger)
drive a 420 HP sedan

it is you who is ungrounded and living in an alternate reality...

so I'm the 'left', lol, what are you the 'insane'?
and obviously racist...

I voted for Obama, but never again. I painful lesson learned. I'm not racist but you are rood and uncooth.