DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[richeydog]

I think they are just trying to remove all "old timers" from the forum who aren't 110% in lockstep with them. Did you notice they just erased John's bathroom remodel thread? What did that have to do with any indictment talk? I think they are just trying to send a message to the few people who still hang out there that won't absolutely get on board 100% no questions asked. Reasoned, realistic comments are no longer tolerated. The kool-aid needs to be dripping from your orifices to stand a chance over there now.

Yep, I noticed that John's bathroom thread was erased and he was not too happy about it. He even made a follow up thread demanding why they deleted it. And they deleted that too. If I remember one thing in life, it's to never piss off the cook.

It's quite silly, actually on how they are treating "us" old timers. I've always been on good behavior over there(notwistanding my avatars ) and now I'm being treated like an outsider. I just shake my head in disbelief.

 

[mziegler]

I think they are just trying to remove all "old timers" from the forum who aren't 110% in lockstep with them. Did you notice they just erased John's bathroom remodel thread? What did that have to do with any indictment talk? I think they are just trying to send a message to the few people who still hang out there that won't absolutely get on board 100% no questions asked. Reasoned, realistic comments are no longer tolerated. The kool-aid needs to be dripping from your orifices to stand a chance over there now.

It has gotten to the point where those who do post have absolutely no credibility. Larry D? What drugs is he on? There are a few other obvious candidates too. Those who comment about the equipment don't sound like fanboys--they sound like salespeople.

 

[Chu Gai]

In the end, Jed, what he had too much of on his table were all the people that were getting screwed and having to use a database to keep track of the lies. Remember the one where some person was waiting for their sub and MLS said it was in his home and either there was a cat or dog curled up to it? Too bad a lot of those threads have been deleted whether it was at AV451 or elsewhere. They sure were something.

 

[mziegler]

company).
I remember that sale. I also remember thinking that I'd be deeply, fundamentally pissed if I were Jongaro and a company used my customer service problems as the butt of a joke like that. In hindsight, maybe the joke was on Mark as much as it was on Jongaro...

Gonk: one thing I do not understand is why you didn't become skeptical earlier. You are one of the most thoughtful and polished posters I have seen on any forum, so I ask this with some trepidation and absolutely no intention of offending you.

Here is one example: do you remember when Shifty was posting about visiting recording studios and implying that they were going to use x-series speakers? This was quite a while ago, but I remember thinking that it was complete BS and hype. Here is the thread: http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=18930&highlight=studio

Of course there are the innumerable threads where Shifty would post something and then in a couple of hours there would be 10 pages of responses. I always felt it was like gawking at a train wreck. I am surprised that more BS detectors were not going off.

Again, I do not mean to offend, since I do not think myself smarter than others. I am just surprised more did not feel like they needed to bathe after some of the posts.

 

[mziegler]

Here is another studio visit. View fast since it will soon disappear: http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=18928&highlight=studio

 

[richeydog]

Gonk: one thing I do not understand is why you didn't become skeptical earlier. You are one of the most thoughtful and polished posters I have seen on any forum, so I ask this with some trepidation and absolutely no intention of offending you.

Here is one example: do you remember when Shifty was posting about visiting recording studios and implying that they were going to use x-series speakers? This was quite a while ago, but I remember thinking that it was complete BS and hype. Here is the thread: http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=18930&highlight=studio

Of course there are the innumerable threads where Shifty would post something and then in a couple of hours there would be 10 pages of responses. I always felt it was like gawking at a train wreck. I am surprised that more BS detectors were not going off.

Again, I do not mean to offend, since I do not think myself smarter than others. I am just surprised more did not feel like they needed to bathe after some of the posts.

Gonk's B.S Meter was malfunctioning. I think he got his meter from the same place where AV123 gets their amps.

 

[gonk]

Gonk: one thing I do not understand is why you didn't become skeptical earlier. You are one of the most thoughtful and polished posters I have seen on any forum, so I ask this with some trepidation and absolutely no intention of offending you.

Here is one example: do you remember when Shifty was posting about visiting recording studios and implying that they were going to use x-series speakers? This was quite a while ago, but I remember thinking that it was complete BS and hype. Here is the thread: http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=18930&highlight=studio

Of course there are the innumerable threads where Shifty would post something and then in a couple of hours there would be 10 pages of responses. I always felt it was like gawking at a train wreck. I am surprised that more BS detectors were not going off.

Again, I do not mean to offend, since I do not think myself smarter than others. I am just surprised more did not feel like they needed to bathe after some of the posts.

No offense taken. I never felt entirely comfortable with AV123, mostly from the weird vibe that Mark gave me. The bizarre develop of the LMC-1 didn't help, although Mark made a pretty convincing argument (at the time) that his main fault was ignorance of what a surround processor should do, what the hardware platform actually was, and what that platform was capable of. Hardly a glowing recommendation if it were all true (at least as far as any electronics development was concerned). Hindsight of course brings even that excuse of ignorance into question. (I still think that ignorance was a factor, although an unwillingness to learn the details if they interfered with his marketing efforts compounded that.) Even then, my limited skepticism turned out to be far too mild compared to the actual facts.

I think that I was like a number of other peripheral members of the community: the company had a habit of tripping our BS meters, but to suggest such openly was anathema due to the community's rabid loyalty. My nature is not very confrontational in most cases. I am unlikely to pick a fight when I know the outcome will be a flame war that I can't win. As close as I came to that was questioning specific details of the LMC-1. That was a product about which Mark made numerous false claims during its oft-delayed development before finally dumping everything in Dan Laufman's lap (a move that seemed reasonable at the time and probably was reasonable to some degree, but in hindsight also shows signs of his trademark "partner under the bus" tactic). Instead, I settled for staying on the periphery. I never contributed to any raffles because I didn't feel comfortable with them and only bought one product - a set of X-LS's for $130. I never went out of my way to recommend them, although I included them when listing prominent online speaker manufacturers from time to time. It wasn't until signs of the true magnitude of the BS and of actual criminal activity started cropping up that I started really speaking up. When AV123 re-opened their forum, started repeating past bad habits (posting obviously bogus delivery dates), and deleting posts to conceal inconvenient facts, I made a more vocal pest of myself. Some folks didn't like it, but they were a much smaller and less effective number at that point.

 

[jongaro]

Boy, I had almost forgotten about that sale. Thanks for bringing it up.

As much of a ******** Mark was, I got him to refund my full purchase price on my dual ufw's after using them for almost two years. It doesn't make up for all the B.S., but everything happens for a reason.

Boy, things have certainly changed quite a bit.

 

[gonk]

Gonk's B.S Meter was malfunctioning. I think he got his meter from the same place where AV123 gets their amps.

What gave it away? Was it the dreadful hum it always made, or was it the fact that I kept having to get warranty replacements every six to eight weeks?

 

[Stereodude]

Remember the one where some person was waiting for their sub and MLS said it was in his home and either there was a cat or dog curled up to it?

That was my parents b-stock ULW-10 with the "new" amp I bought for them directly from TADG. They did eventually get one (but not the one at TADG's house) and it still works. *fingers crossed*

After I complained about it on AVSforum, Kyle e-mailed me and told me he had a Rosewood one if I wanted it. I asked him "By the way, what happened to the satin black ULW-10 supposedly sitting in Mark's basement waiting to be shipped?" and he replied, "I am not sure what is going on with the subwoofer from MLS's house but I do have some Black cabinets on hand and would be more than happy to swap the parts out for you."

 

[mziegler]

Jongaro:

Technically you should remove "Dual BMF-1's on preorder" from your sig if you were actually refunded your money. There is a better chance that I will win an Oscar, Grammy, or Nobel Prize in Literature than there is a chance of the BMF ever appearing.

 

[Stereodude]

Jongaro:

Technically you should remove "Dual BMF-1's on preorder" from your sig if you were actually refunded your money. There is a better chance that I will win an Oscar, Grammy, or Nobel Prize in Literature than there is a chance of the BMF ever appearing.

I'm pretty sure he got his money back from his UFW-12's. He may still have BMF-1's on order.

Unfortunately for him, Mark Seaton has deep six'd the BMF never to be seen again (which is perfectly understandable given the situation).

 

[richeydog]

The BMF is not dead.You can order one right here...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037BQVJI/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001Q49X9I&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0FJEGSN06JMEWZARAJ3M

 

[m-fine]

That was my parents b-stock ULW-10 with the "new" amp I bought for them directly from TADG. They did eventually get one (but not the one at TADG's house) and it still works. *fingers crossed*

After I complained about it on AVSforum, Kyle e-mailed me and told me he had a Rosewood one if I wanted it. I asked him "By the way, what happened to the satin black ULW-10 supposedly sitting in Mark's basement waiting to be shipped?" and he replied, "I am not sure what is going on with the subwoofer from MLS's house but I do have some Black cabinets on hand and would be more than happy to swap the parts out for you."

There is no credible evidence that the satin black UFW-10 in question ever existed. Unless it has shown up on Craigslist, I would bet there never was a sub in the basement and he sold you a line of crap thinking he could get his hands on one sooner or later.

 

[Jed M]

Gonk: one thing I do not understand is why you didn't become skeptical earlier. You are one of the most thoughtful and polished posters I have seen on any forum, so I ask this with some trepidation and absolutely no intention of offending you.

Here is one example: do you remember when Shifty was posting about visiting recording studios and implying that they were going to use x-series speakers? This was quite a while ago, but I remember thinking that it was complete BS and hype. Here is the thread: http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=18930&highlight=studio

Of course there are the innumerable threads where Shifty would post something and then in a couple of hours there would be 10 pages of responses. I always felt it was like gawking at a train wreck. I am surprised that more BS detectors were not going off.

Again, I do not mean to offend, since I do not think myself smarter than others. I am just surprised more did not feel like they needed to bathe after some of the posts.

I remember those posts, but if you look at "film_mixer" and his posting account he seems legit. He has an imdb page and he has worked on major A list blockbusters.
[url]http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0279892/[/URL]

I think if you knew MLS's posting style you took his hyperbole with a grain of salt. I think everybody did, with the exception of the handful of real fundies. I just assumed these guys were friends going back to Mark's l.a. days, but I never assumed the x-series were going to be featured at Skywalker Ranch even though Mark's enthusiasm/hype would lead you to believe that. That being said the real story of that link, given Marc Fishman's credentials, is MLS getting such a winning endorsement from such an accomplished, emmy-winning sound engineer.

I would have been riding that testimonial like a prized pony down the stretch but it seems he never did.

I think there was a lot of stuff to set off alarms, like how Mark always cast a shady net on anybody who tried to complain, er, "harm" him or his company. Everybody who didn't buy into him had a hidden agenda going back decades and Mark would have more to say when the time was right. All the strange raffles in 2007 alone for "the children of Russia", or just all the raffles in general. It was that kind of nonsense that everybody should have said enough and started asking questions, but doubting that Marc Fishman really liked the x series and that Mark loved to hype his stuff doesn't set off any alarms anymore now than it did then.

Now what would be great if he just started posting under Marc Fishman's identity to sell the lie. (edit) Hmm... there are a lot of ellipses in there...(edit) I don't believe that for one second but nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[Jed M]

There is no credible evidence that the satin black UFW-10 in question ever existed. Unless it has shown up on Craigslist, I would bet there never was a sub in the basement and he sold you a line of crap thinking he could get his hands on one sooner or later.

And I am pretty sure the same thing can be said about the issue that started this thread.

added thought: its surprising Grant's original post only has 5 "thanks". That should be signed by everybody on this forum.

 

[mziegler]

I have actually met Marc Fishman, and he seems like a cool guy--I might even be seeing him in June. Maybe I'll tease him a bit (I don't know him well enough to really give him crap).

From my total outsider's perspective it was just more hype from the king of hype. Perhaps I'm just an a-hole.

 

[mhawker]

Perhaps the "D" in Larry D corresponds with the "D" in TADG? Or perhaps the "D" in TADG is for Dane.

Seems those two are working hard to keep the forum going by bailing as fast as they can.

Trouble is bull%$#@ is harder to bail than water.

 

[cschang]

I have actually met Marc Fishman, and he seems like a cool guy--I might even be seeing him in June. Maybe I'll tease him a bit (I don't know him well enough to really give him crap).

From my total outsider's perspective it was just more hype from the king of hype. Perhaps I'm just an a-hole.

Agreed....Marc Fishman is a good guy. I have actually been to two of the studios he uses for mixing....one he used to use, and the one if currently uses.

I believe at one of these sessions he was asked about those speakers, and he said they wanted to use them because they were typical speakers that someone may use at home. When touring the studios and various mixing/recording rooms, I never saw the speakers.

 

[bunnyma357]

I think one of the reasons so much stuff passed for so long, is that a lot of the speakers were very good values, and sound quite good. I know there were lots of QC issues and veneer problems, especially as relationships with suppliers started to sour - but I have a bunch of AV123 stuff that performs quite well at it's price point. (I too use them with X-LS's with my video editing system).

I did buy all my stuff on sale, B-Stock or Used - but it is still performing quite well. Subwoofers and amps are another matter I have 1 MFW that I got for $299 that is performing perfectly, and 3 ULW-10's that all had the amp die. Those were a nightmare to get originally with insulting lies about delivery issues going on for months - I'm currently waiting on my final Parts-Express amp, so it still isn't finished. At least, they have sent out the new amp, even though they banned me over there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwA4jt-JYPE

Also I generally only read the threads I was interested in - so I was unaware of many of the big problems and lies that were spread through a lot of the complaint threads. I generally viewed Mark's lies as small "white lies", and it was worth dealing with them for a decent value - obviously the lies were far worse in scope and more widespread than I could ever have imagined.

It still seems odd to me, if someone was looking to rip people off in the audio world, that the snake oil path is a better way to maximize profits. And most people generally are trustworthy, I'd rather assume people are good and be proven wrong on rare occasions than view everyone with distrust. Although, this whole thing has definitely shaken my faith in people.

I'd also venture that Larry D is probably unaware of a lot of this stuff going on, much like the monk was. I've always found Larry to be kind and helpful on several forums. I don't think I personally would have looked into a lot of this, if the Colorado AG hadn't called me. If you're not looking to find this info out, it is very easy to miss it.


Jim C