Tired of EP2500. Need replacement ideas.

[Shock]

I already posted a better fan mod for the 2500 earlier in this thread.

 

[monsterman]

The problem is, at this point, I can't get the amp back on ... figured it was a loose wire on the back of my sub box. But those have checked out and now I await suggestions.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Pop the cover and see if there's an internal fuse.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TLS Guy]

Whoa.... hold on. TLS Guy may be jumping to some unproven conclusions.

The TC Sounds TC2000 safely handles 2000 RMS amplifiers under constant high power conditions. The device was specifically designed for high abuse and massive power input. The testing at hometheatershack demonstrated a 2000+ watt amplifier was LIMITING the tests, not the TC 2000. Reliability is very high for these drivers used under massive power conditions.

The other issue is that TLS seems to assume the EP2500 is not a high quality high power amplifier. This is absolutely false, of course. In the case it was damaged/overheated, this would be directly related to using the much lower CFM low SPL fan in place of the high CFM OEM fan. Normally not a problem, as most people don't run the amps anywhere near capacity for extended continuous periods in a home setting as you claim to be doing. The amp was specifically designed to be able to operate continuously at near full capacity, but only with the cooling system working at maximum efficiency. You have reduced cooling efficiency by a bare minimum of 1/2, by using the low CFM, super low SPL replacement fan.

Now, you may not have damaged the amp 'yet'. Remove the super low SPL fan and put back in the OEM or other equivalent CFM device. Use a suitable power rated potentiometer to quiet the fan for critical music listening (where not much continous power is needed from the Ep2500). For party music, or reference level HT use, crank the potentiometer up so the fan operates at full speed.

-Chris5

I made no comment about the quality of the amp. Any amp that makes the noise he describes and repeatedly pops the breaker is in serious trouble, and I stand by that. There is a history of abuse to this amp by any reasonable criteria.

If the amp has failed then it is standard and prudent service practice to check out the driver to which the amp is connected, no matter what the pedigree of the driver involved.

With the abuse, the driver may have been exposed to DC off set and all kind of ills. The sound the amp makes before the reset pops, sounds to me very suspicious for half wave DC offset.

If it were me, I would not dream of exposing another amp or a repaired amp to that driver, without measuring its DC resistance.

 

[PENG]

The Ohm's Law power formula (P=I x E) would show that at 15Atimes 120VAC =1800Watts, so the 2400W rating can't be for continuous operation.

Let's not confuse Ohm's Law with power formula but I do agree if the amp is plugged into a 15A circuit (with nothing else on the circuit) it cannot output 2400W continuously. It may do 1500W, but most likely less.

 

[Josuah]

Let's not confuse Ohm's Law with power formula but I do agree if the amp is plugged into a 15A circuit (with nothing else on the circuit) it cannot output 2400W continuously. It may do 1500W, but most likely less.

I had called Behringer about this a long time ago. The advertised wattage (which is either 0.1% THD in the EP2500 manual or 1% THD in the EP4000 manual, IIRC) is for transients. It's not the sustainable power output.

 

[TLS Guy]

I had called Behringer about this a long time ago. The advertised wattage (which is either 0.1% THD in the EP2500 manual or 1% THD in the EP4000 manual, IIRC) is for transients. It's not the sustainable power output.

So as I suspected the specs of those amps are to be taken with a heavy grain of salt.

The specs of those amps always seemed to me to be far too good to be true. I have never been in the least bit tempted by them, but highly suspicious of the whole outfit. I have always had the feeling I could destroy one on the bench pretty fast!

 

[WmAx]

No need to speculate about the Ep2500. The amp was tested by a 3rd party(A Crown technician) on AVS forum a while back.

On a dedicated 20 amp circuit, it outputs continous 1100x2, 2 Ohms, 1kHz, both channels driven, at 0.08% THD.

At 4 Ohm, it outputs 650 x 2, both channels driven, 1kHz, 0.035% THD.

These are actual measured output power levels, not factory specifications. It is off by 100 watts per channel on the 2 Ohm load rating. It 'only' produces 1100x2 instead of 1200x2.

-Chris

 

[MinusTheBear]

but highly suspicious of the whole outfit !

From Behringers wikipedia page.

[edit] FCC dispute

The certified EMC testing facility in Behringer CityIn February 2006, the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC) fined Behringer $1M,[10] issuing a Notice of Apparent Liability against Behringer, claiming that 50 of the company's products had not been tested for conducted and radiated emissions limits as required by US law,[11] and noting that Behringer continued to sell the products for a year after being notified.[10] Behringer had believed that since the units had passed stringent European CE standards, they would also comply with FCC verification requirements.[10] According to Behringer, it had overlooked the differences in testing standards and procedures under FCC and European requirements and has since implemented a complete UL certified safety and EMC testing laboratory under the UL certified witness program, including an in-house audit and global regulatory review system.[12][13]

[edit] Legal cases
In June 1997, Mackie accused Behringer of trademark and trade dress infringement, and brought suit seeking $327M in damages[14][15] but such claims were later rejected by the court. In their suit, Mackie said that Behringer had a history of copying products by other manufacturers and selling them as their own.[16] The Mackie suit detailed an instance in which Behringer was sued by Aphex Systems for copying the Aural Exciter Type F—in that case Aphex Systems won 690,000 Deutsche Marks.[16] The Mackie suit also mentioned similar cases filed by BBE, dbx and Drawmer.[16] On November 30, 1999, the U.S. District Court in Seattle, Washington, dismissed Mackie claims that Behringer had infringed on Mackie copyrights with its MX 8000 mixer, noting that circuit board layout was not covered by U.S. copyright laws.[17][18]

In 2005, Roland Corporation sued to enforce Roland's trade dress, trademark, and other intellectual property rights with regard to Behringer's recently released guitar pedals.[19] The two companies came to a confidential settlement in 2006 after Behringer changed their designs.[20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer

 

[GO-NAD!]

From Behringers wikipedia page.

[edit] FCC dispute

The certified EMC testing facility in Behringer CityIn February 2006, the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC) fined Behringer $1M,[10] issuing a Notice of Apparent Liability against Behringer, claiming that 50 of the company's products had not been tested for conducted and radiated emissions limits as required by US law,[11] and noting that Behringer continued to sell the products for a year after being notified.[10] Behringer had believed that since the units had passed stringent European CE standards, they would also comply with FCC verification requirements.[10] According to Behringer, it had overlooked the differences in testing standards and procedures under FCC and European requirements and has since implemented a complete UL certified safety and EMC testing laboratory under the UL certified witness program, including an in-house audit and global regulatory review system.[12][13]

[edit] Legal cases
In June 1997, Mackie accused Behringer of trademark and trade dress infringement, and brought suit seeking $327M in damages[14][15] but such claims were later rejected by the court. In their suit, Mackie said that Behringer had a history of copying products by other manufacturers and selling them as their own.[16] The Mackie suit detailed an instance in which Behringer was sued by Aphex Systems for copying the Aural Exciter Type F—in that case Aphex Systems won 690,000 Deutsche Marks.[16] The Mackie suit also mentioned similar cases filed by BBE, dbx and Drawmer.[16] On November 30, 1999, the U.S. District Court in Seattle, Washington, dismissed Mackie claims that Behringer had infringed on Mackie copyrights with its MX 8000 mixer, noting that circuit board layout was not covered by U.S. copyright laws.[17][18]

In 2005, Roland Corporation sued to enforce Roland's trade dress, trademark, and other intellectual property rights with regard to Behringer's recently released guitar pedals.[19] The two companies came to a confidential settlement in 2006 after Behringer changed their designs.[20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer

Hmm, interesting. However, what does this have to do with the quality of the amplifier in question?

 

[MinusTheBear]

Hmm, interesting. However, what does this have to do with the quality of the amplifier in question?

Its an appropriate response to a point TSLGuy mentioned in his post. I quoted the specific point directly, but yes you are correct the response has nothing to do with the amplifier in question. However, it does speak about the integrity of the company in question.

 

[PENG]

No need to speculate about the Ep2500. The amp was tested by a 3rd party(A Crown technician) on AVS forum a while back.

On a dedicated 20 amp circuit, it outputs continous 1100x2, 2 Ohms, 1kHz, both channels driven, at 0.08% THD.

At 4 Ohm, it outputs 650 x 2, both channels driven, 1kHz, 0.035% THD.

These are actual measured output power levels, not factory specifications. It is off by 100 watts per channel on the 2 Ohm load rating. It 'only' produces 1100x2 instead of 1200x2.

-Chris

Hello Chris, I have no trouble believing the 650X2 at 4 ohms but not 1100X2 continuous at 2 ohms on a 20A circuit. A 20 cct is rated to deliver 2400W assuming the voltage does not drop below 120V but it invariably will drop under load.

Granted, for testing purposes, a regulated power supply could have maintained the voltage during tests; and let's further assume he used a purely resistive load but even then how is it possible for a class AB amp to have efficiency as high as 91.67% (2200/2400)? Is the E2500 not class A/B?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello Chris, I have no trouble believing the 650X2 at 4 ohms but not 1100X2 continuous at 2 ohms on a 20A circuit. A 20 cct is rated to deliver 2400W assuming the voltage does not drop below 120V but it invariably will drop under load.

Granted, for testing purposes, a regulated power supply could have maintained the voltage during tests; and let's further assume he used a purely resistive load but even then how is it possible for a class AB amp to have efficiency as high as 91.67% (2200/2400)? Is the E2500 not class A/B?

It is not class D, so if it is that efficient it is a lousy amp for audio purposes.

 

[WmAx]

Hello Chris, I have no trouble believing the 650X2 at 4 ohms but not 1100X2 continuous at 2 ohms on a 20A circuit. A 20 cct is rated to deliver 2400W assuming the voltage does not drop below 120V but it invariably will drop under load.

Granted, for testing purposes, a regulated power supply could have maintained the voltage during tests; and let's further assume he used a purely resistive load but even then how is it possible for a class AB amp to have efficiency as high as 91.67% (2200/2400)? Is the E2500 not class A/B?

You can believe it, or not, but these are 3rd party tests carried out by a credible party. BTW, the line is always held to exactly 120V for testing of all amplifiers. by way of a variac.

The amp is a class H; a more efficient variant of class A/B, but definately not a switch mode amplifier(class D, class T, etc.).

-Chris

 

[antiprnt]

Does anyone use this amp to power their speakers? I noticed that a majority of the posters seem to use this amp to power subs...whats wrong with powering speakers with this?

 

[WmAx]

Does anyone use this amp to power their speakers? I noticed that a majority of the posters seem to use this amp to power subs...whats wrong with powering speakers with this?

Most people just don't need that much power. Although, that much power is perfectly good to use, and will allow for absolutely clip proof performance with any recording, regardless of dynamics, when used with most speaker systems. Also, it has higher stability into reactive loads; this amp can easily drive any speaker system out there.

There are a couple of people on this forum using it and/or the Ep1500 with their high end speaker systems. I think one fellow has B&W 803D and the other B&W 801, if memory serves me correctly. They were thrilled when they placed it in the system in exchange for the 'high end' amps they were using previously. I suspect this is mainly because those speakers are very reactive and dip into very low impedance ranges. The Ep1500 and Ep2500 would not have any problem driving these speakers to reference levels with no clipping.

-Chris

 

[Codifus]

Most people just don't need that much power. Although, that much power is perfectly good to use, and will allow for absolutely clip proof performance with any recording, regardless of dynamics, when used with most speaker systems. Also, it has higher stability into reactive loads; this amp can easily drive any speaker system out there.

There are a couple of people on this forum using it and/or the Ep1500 with their high end speaker systems. I think one fellow has B&W 803D and the other B&W 801, if memory serves me correctly. They were thrilled when they placed it in the system in exchange for the 'high end' amps they were using previously. I suspect this is mainly because those speakers are very reactive and dip into very low impedance ranges. The Ep1500 and Ep2500 would not have any problem driving these speakers to reference levels with no clipping.

-Chris

This is what I LIKE to hear!

I'll be powering my main speakers from an EP 2000 shortly. When I had my 2 A500s, before they suffered from the piano solo, they sounded very good.
My hope is that the Ep series has that sound but none of the A500s shortcomings. I am looking forward to it.

CD

 

[walter duque]

WmAx
I have nothing but the upmost respect for you. I have followed your threads and you are to me one of the most knowledgable members on this forum, why are you so stuck on Yamaha?

WmAx
I have to eat my words and they're not easy to swollow, but today I had a chance to audition these Yamaha amps with some Phase Tech Premier speakers in 5.1 and all I have to say these amps just blew me away. For that price I just don't think they could be beat at all. I think you got me hooked on Yamaha, that's for sure. Now I know why you highly recommend Yamaha amps. I guess I flapped my jaws to soon.

 

[WmAx]

WmAx
I have to eat my words and they're not easy to swollow, but today I had a chance to audition these Yamaha amps with some Phase Tech Premier speakers in 5.1 and all I have to say these amps just blew me away. For that price I just don't think they could be beat at all. I think you got me hooked on Yamaha, that's for sure. Now I know why you highly recommend Yamaha amps. I guess I flapped my jaws to soon.

One needs to look beyond price as the guide to 'quality'. I have only recommended products that I am sure are of the top performance and of very high quality. The Yamaha P**00S series of amps have NO compromise even in the very best stereo systems. One should remember that years ago I was an audiophile/audiofool. I would have scoffed at the idea of using a Yamaha pro amp on my mains. I used to have the high end amps, preamps, etc. I even thought I could hear the difference in exotic capacitors and wire. I have learned a lot of the years, and now only look for actual/true performance, not the imagined.

-Chris

 

[PENG]

One needs to look beyond price as the guide to 'quality'. I have only recommended products that I am sure are of the top performance and of very high quality. The Yamaha P**00S series of amps have NO compromise even in the very best stereo systems. One should remember that years ago I was an audiophile/audiofool. I would have scoffed at the idea of using a Yamaha pro amp on my mains. I used to have the high end amps, preamps, etc. I even thought I could hear the difference in exotic capacitors and wire. I have learned a lot of the years, and now only look for actual/true performance, not the imagined.

-Chris

Chris, I would like to try one but I am in Canada. Would you happen to know where I can buy that Yamaha pro amp?

Thanks in advance.